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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    That's a matter of your own goals and which kind of raid you chose to join.

    If you raid in a mythic progression guild, surely your RL will have priorities which are different then the goals of a casual, laid back, 1 evening per week raiding group of friends.
    That is generally true as a philosophical statement but in rogue case both outlaw and assa are being played up to the top echelons of progress. If a raid leader wants to slot a leather melee into the raid dh / rogue are decent choices, feral / monk are very situational and often sub-optimal choices.

    Smart Raid Leaders care not only about which class parses best on paper, but also which player dies less (rogues are good at surviving), which player has more consistent dps (that's why assa > outlaw because outlaw has big variance one pull you do amazing another you do meh), which player can deal with mechanics easier (less dps lost, less chance of dying) and even things like armor type and tier token distribution (even if DH is a bit better than rogue you don't want to have 4 DHs in your raid team unless you're one of the guilds which raids on alts and class stacks fight per fight basis, and people have multiple classes to boot).

    The "but rogues are pure dps" argument doesn't mean much because you aren't keeping your dps DHs, Warrs, DKs and whoever else "because they can tank too", most guilds will have 2 main tanks and maybe 1 or 2 backups tops, not half your melee team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by testing123 View Post
    i don't find it bs at all. i'm in an 8/10M guild. dps-wise i fall somewhere between 4 and 13. i constantly tell them sit me anytime so we can get new people in and you know what the officers say

    "you do mechanics, we aren't sitting you"

    play what you like, play it well (including mechanics, not just dps/hps) and enjoy yourself
    I'm in a 9/10m guild and I have friends in a world top 200 guild who have mythic Gul'dan on farm, both guilds have 2 rogues on the roster and I didn't see in either case rogues being benched for being rogues. The fact they can survive being a backup emergency soaker for Elisande orbs or getting hit by rings while other class might die makes them not a bad choice for that boss, and for Gul'dan they're the preferred soul soakers.

    The only NH boss you might have wanted to bench the rogues was spellblade progression because in that boss fast aoe is more important, on every other boss even if it has aoe involved it's not so crucial every single dps in the raid aoes instead of sitting at the boss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by permp View Post
    If they want to make us a PURE ST class so be it but we need to performace at lease 20% higher than other classes otherwise is useless to bring a rogue to hit the boss.
    It's not useless because in case of most NH bosses the extra padding some classes can do inflates their parses but contributes very little to the actual killing of the boss. The fact assa spec is based on bleeds also allows you to keep some of your boss dps running while you do other stuff like soak swirls on krosus or hide behind pillar on tichondrius, while some other melee can't do that at all.

    Tbh half the fights the raid leader's headache is "how to make my dps hit the important target instead of padding until cows go home". If a class doesn't have easy padding built-in doesn't make it immediately useless. On the other half, look at monk, tons of passive cleave and very meh single target output even post rising sun kick buff.
    Last edited by Marrilaife; 2017-05-08 at 08:18 PM.

  2. #42
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Where exactly is the rogue energy starved?
    Assasination

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by testing123 View Post
    i don't find it bs at all. i'm in an 8/10M guild. dps-wise i fall somewhere between 4 and 13. i constantly tell them sit me anytime so we can get new people in and you know what the officers say

    "you do mechanics, we aren't sitting you"

    play what you like, play it well (including mechanics, not just dps/hps) and enjoy yourself
    This. Currently 5/10m (4 hours per week only). Play outlaw for half of the bosses we have tried/downed. Play what you want. Do mechanics, be a rogue and don't die. That combined with our dps makes us valuable. Dps also matters less as a tier gets older (nerfs, ilvl growth, trait growth); decent dps now was good dps at the beginning of a tier and will still result in the boss dropping if mechanics are done.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Surgex View Post
    Assasination
    if you're energy starved as assassination, then you're fresh 110, super low artifact, or you're doing it completely wrong. I'm not quite gcd capped most of the time, but i certainly don't want for energy.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by elfporn View Post
    if you're energy starved as assassination, then you're fresh 110, super low artifact, or you're doing it completely wrong. I'm not quite gcd capped most of the time, but i certainly don't want for energy.
    Assassination energy regen is so fine that NO ONE is using a lane talent that gives +3 energy. OH wait....

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by scarfdeath View Post
    Assassination energy regen is so fine that NO ONE is using a lane talent that gives +3 energy. OH wait....
    And? So what? people moaning about energy starvation on assination sound like they expect it to be GCD capped. That's not how the spec works.

    Energy starvation would be waiting 8-10 seconds after dumping energy before you could do anything. Energy starvation is 40%+ downtime in a rotation. I think the worst ass got was 30%? but that's just in general. Sub was energy starved within the 5 second frame of dance, outside of dance, you pool resources.

    Rogue has always been about pooling and spending resources in different ways. Rogue is not monk. If you want something to press every gcd, play monk.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by elfporn View Post
    And? So what? people moaning about energy starvation on assination sound like they expect it to be GCD capped. That's not how the spec works.

    Energy starvation would be waiting 8-10 seconds after dumping energy before you could do anything. Energy starvation is 40%+ downtime in a rotation. I think the worst ass got was 30%? but that's just in general. Sub was energy starved within the 5 second frame of dance, outside of dance, you pool resources.

    Rogue has always been about pooling and spending resources in different ways. Rogue is not monk. If you want something to press every gcd, play monk.
    are we playing the same game ?

    Waiting:42.47%

    http://www.simulationcraft.org/repor...d_T19M_NH.html

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by scarfdeath View Post
    are we playing the same game ?

    Waiting:42.47%

    http://www.simulationcraft.org/repor...d_T19M_NH.html
    I guess we're not playing the same game. Take a moment to think about what it would feel like to wait for energy almost half the time. Now think about if you actually do that.

    Now think how often you need to consciously pool energy.
    Now look it up on actual logs instead of sims.

    Personally, i pool for about 3-5 seconds every rupture cycle. And that's all i need to maintain.

    Now yourself, you may need to pool energy 4-5 seconds or more out of every 10, but i guarantee you that most ass rogues dont need to do this to maintain their rotation. I certainly dont.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarfdeath View Post
    are we playing the same game ?

    Waiting:42.47%

    http://www.simulationcraft.org/repor...d_T19M_NH.html
    Sin rogue has alwayse been a meticoulus spec, now its pooling for KB and surge window, before it was pooling for envnom window...

  10. #50
    Sin isn't my main spec but I have to agree that energy regen feels fine. Not crack addict level of capping like you get with outlaw but thats not the point/feel of the spec.

  11. #51
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by scarfdeath View Post
    are we playing the same game ?

    Waiting:42.47%

    http://www.simulationcraft.org/repor...d_T19M_NH.html
    42% of wait time is perfectly fine and this shows the energy mechanism perfectly does its work. Rogues are not monks. Assassination is a matter of energy pooling and timing for burst and it has always been since its creation with BC.

  12. #52
    That depends on what you think that "underperforming" means. Our ST dps is pretty decent, nevertheless it doesn't mean we're performing well.

    - We have no consistently reliable, valuable AoE. (I hate I even have to mention this, since I despise anything involving AoE. But alas, WoW has become an AoE focused, trash-clearing game)
    - Our ST DPS fluctuates based on PB procs; I either do ~850dps or ~1mildps, based on PB procs. This discrepancy is unacceptable.
    - AP pulls everything out of whack, especially mastery scaling.
    - The way AP scales, makes a whole lot of talents absolutely worthless in most types of content; barely anyone deviates from our blatant cooky-cutter spec.

    It's a damn shame that WoW has become a game that relies so heavily on classes' ability to 'zerg'. Even with the introduction of M+ and affixes, which were supposed to make trash interesting to a certain extent and potentially require groups to think about their approach (not unlike SWP's trash, if anyone here remembers), it turned out groups merely go for classes that have the best AoE capabilities. Where does that leave us? Or am I the only Rogue that has rouble finding M+ groups?

    I sincerely miss TBC in that regard, where AoE was a tool sporadically used in situations that warranted it. E.G. MH trash waves, BT Reliquary, etc.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Or am I the only Rogue that has rouble finding M+ groups?
    You're not alone.
    Even if you /w group leaders "hey, Outlaw here", you usually get declined for anything 7+

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanix View Post
    You're not alone.
    Even if you /w group leaders "hey, Outlaw here", you usually get declined for anything 7+
    Go assa. Stack mastery to heavens. Then pray for pbs. You are now the No1 aoe spec in game. And before anyone says anything when i mean stack mastery i mean way beyond 200% if u have the gear for it. If nothing of the previous dont happen then RIP. Outlaw cant compete assa unless u are decked on traits in otl and heavy versa.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanix View Post
    You're not alone.
    Even if you /w group leaders "hey, Outlaw here", you usually get declined for anything 7+
    I just link them my keystone master achieve and that does the trick. I haven't meet much anti rogue bias at all looking for dungeons. Unless the group is full on dps already

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanix View Post
    You're not alone.
    Even if you /w group leaders "hey, Outlaw here", you usually get declined for anything 7+
    Every dps gets declined from m+ because there's usually 20 times more of them than tanks or healers and only 3 times more spots. My guild's hunter got declined from m+ for being MM not BM even though MM with explosive shot and piercing shot does truckload of aoe. People are very very picky because of overabundance of dps in m+ queues. Same story with ret palas being declined despite divine hammer wrecks on aoe. You can check every class forums and there will be a thread somewhere about some dps spec being declined from m+, doesn't matter what it is, warlock, priest, boomkin, feral, paladin, frost mage, rogue etc. etc.

    Atm I'm coming to conclusion the best m+ setup according to community is 3 DHs. Well maybe swap one for a hero / BL class if you don't have a resto shaman. In before a DH comes complaining he got declined from m+ too.

    But the 7.2.5 changes and no depletion should make keys more plentiful and less risky to pug. The only problem is the amount of tanks and healers joining is not gonna go up.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripple19 View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but we are about dead last on cleave and AOE fights unless we get crazy PB procs, and we are probably about number five in single target....? Doesn't seem too good.
    Are you fucking high?
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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Azkial View Post
    Are you fucking high?
    Sadly nope he's not joking and telling rogues are ranked 5th for ST damage isnt that of a stretch, considering locks, frost mages , fury warriors and DHs are strong contenders for the 4 first places.

    And if it wasnt bad enough:

    PTR changes for t19

    Item - Rogue T19 Assassination 2P Bonus Mutilate also causes the target to Bleed for (30%) 20% additional damage over 8 sec.
    Item - Rogue T19 Assassination 4P Bonus Envenom deals (10%) 7% additional damage per Bleed you have on the target.


    That should make T20 boni more appealing, now doesnt it ? ><

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by precious View Post
    Go assa. Stack mastery to heavens. Then pray for pbs. You are now the No1 aoe spec in game.
    No you are not. Have you ever seen a decent fire mage in m+ with big pulls, or boomkins, with 8-9 mil. for a good amount of time? Not possible for rogues.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Faildevil View Post
    No you are not. Have you ever seen a decent fire mage in m+ with big pulls, or boomkins, with 8-9 mil. for a good amount of time? Not possible for rogues.
    Its possible but u need a lot of luck, everything to be stacked and specific gearing to do it. A fire mage will do it with 90% of less trying. And this is the problem that are ignoring on purpose.

    Classes with nice st, good cleave and god mode aoe. While we are stuck on nice st, meh cleave and non existance aoe to god mode aoe which we have no control over it. The problem is not if we do 15 million dps aoe or zero. The problem is the control of it.

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