Rip m+

[Deleted]

You are fucking 913..... NINE FUCKING THIRTEEN

Cmon i challenge you. You and your Group Remove 30ilvl and do a Tyrannical +15 3 chest

Yeah, when i was about to open that link i was expecting some uber skilled player with 875 ilvl, but 913..... i think he is just trolling us.

[Bowshewicz]

I think what's at work here is a few tangled flaws in the system.

Players who are 910+ are running Mythics, hoping to get gear upgrades through titanforging. But the problem isn't the titanforge system itself -- it's two particular aspects of how gear is currently working in WoW:

1) For certain specializations, dungeons drop trinkets and relics that are superior to the ones available from raiding.

The first point is a natural consequence of a complex system. Blizzard doesn't usually know what trinkets will perform best from the start. They do try to place the stuff they think will work best in raids, and they are successful in most cases. Sometimes though, a dungeon trinket is more powerful than expected. This means that players will want that trinket, and that they'll feel like they need to get a titanforge for it to be competitive. THIS is what needs to be addressed. If the most powerful gear was found in raids, nobody would feel like they need to run dungeons all day to progress their characters even after clearing Mythic Gul'dan. I haven't paid too much attention to other specializations, but it does appear that they made an effort to place attractive loot in ToS for mine.

After looking at ToS loot (or testing on the PTR), do you guys have the feeling that the trinkets and relics there will be stronger than dungeon loot?

2) Mythic dungeons and Mythic raids can drop almost the same level loot.

With the exception of Mythic Gul'dan, the base level of loot in Mythic+ is the same as the base level of loot in Mythic Nighthold. This doesn't make sense because the difficulty of Mythic 10 is trivial compared to Mythic Nighthold. In order to reconcile the issue, Blizzard should either make Mythic+ harder or make raids drop higher gear. I believe that Mythic+ will cap at 920 or 925 in 7.2.5, while Mythic Tomb will cap at 940, so it seems this issue will be fixed in that patch.

If the trinkets are better in ToS than in M+, and the base is 15 levels lower than raid gear, will you still feel like you need to be running Mythic+ to earn gear once you've reached 925?

[Deleted]

Titanforging is the ONLY reason that content other than Mythic NH has remained relavent. It's honestly a brilliant piece of game design.

Or do you think the better option would be to have 99% of the content be dead to you once you reach about 880 ilvl? Would that really be an upgrade over the TF system?

Without TF why would you EVER run M+ now that AP had been trivialized? The hope for specific pieces of dungeon loot TF'ing is a big draw right now and makes dungeons lucrative. We wouldn't even be talking about dungeons in past xpacs after 9 months of it being live. The damn near perfect M+ system and TF is what's to thank for easy to access content that we've all enjoyed since Legion launched.

I can't believe you mooks are so willing to accept Blizzards bullshit reasoning for gutting the M+ system.

So, I'll say again, RIP M+, the best thing about Legion by far.

This is quite the impressive post: You started off speaking from my heart: WF/TF actually DOES keep the current content relevant. Yes, it's repetitive, but aren't all games? So is chess or poker...

Then you completely switched sides and talk about how it's not good to reduce the amount of loot and that it kills that current content. The only way you really can keep content relevant is if not everyone is already at the upper limit of that WF/TF range and with that insane amount of loot (1.2 pieces of loot per person for a 15-20 minute +10 run, repeatable infinitely), there are already quite a lot of people at that stage.

I actually think it's a good change, even on the loot. The only thing is that it might be quite the rough wake-up call for a lot of the boostees who suddenly will struggle to find a group pushing them way past the level they are capable of. Let's see how Blizz will react to the blow-back of this once it hits the masses (that probably don't even know about it yet because they typically don't read patch notes).

[Charge me Doctor]

You see, it's sad that people at Blizzard think exactly like you, because I simply can't agree.
Refusing to provide tangible rewards for achieving specific milestones is what is pretty much forcing people to farm what they can 3 chest ad infinitum.

I could easily push keys past level 20, but I have no reason to. No achievement to gain, no artifact skin to acquire, no transmog, title, NOTHING.

That what's ruining gaming communities today. If you see "no reward" you just don't do it. I recall beating hard encounters to be enjoyable by itself, without piece of gear waiting for you after that.

[Bowshewicz]

That what's ruining gaming communities today. If you see "no reward" you just don't do it. I recall beating hard encounters to be enjoyable by itself, without piece of gear waiting for you after that.

Meh, that's sort of just how the WoW community is.

Blizz usually does a good job of reconciling challenge-oriented players with reward-oriented ones by putting the good rewards behind the challenging content, and Mythic+ is just a misstep. I have faith that they will correct it in time.

[DakonBlackblade]

When all these changes come through, the cap will be back up to 15. Still a 2 chest atleast for a lot of groups, but eh.

That will happen alongside Tomb opening, which will inflate everyones gear once again and sudenly 15 becomes as easy as a 10 is today. Even without Tomb gear right now a half decent group can push all the way to 17-18 without much of a chalenge.

[Aphrel]

That what's ruining gaming communities today. If you see "no reward" you just don't do it. I recall beating hard encounters to be enjoyable by itself, without piece of gear waiting for you after that.

Even if you are of that mindset, you are only gonna push high when its the most favorable affixes (or at the very least not tyrannical).
And when youve done it once, pushed the bar up your done. So even then its not a very good model.

Imo higher level mythic runs should award either more of the same m+10 loot or higher ilvl loot.
Id easily be up for farming 15-20 if it meant getting 5-10 items per run instead of 2-3.

[Crysth]

Yeah, when i was about to open that link i was expecting some uber skilled player with 875 ilvl, but 913..... i think he is just trolling us.

And when you look at the leaderboards of wowprogress, all of his teams are 910+, usually comps rigged to crush m+ (double Havoc, one ele shaman style comps). Most people don't setup their comps rigged like that, with all 910+.

[BannedForViews]

Old 3 chest = 6 pieces, new "3" chest = 3 pieces, hence, cut in half

Except you aren't 3 chesting 19s so 3 > 2.

[Onikaroshi]

Except you aren't 3 chesting 19s so 3 > 2.

Who's doing 19s? Unless you enjoy the challenge, which then you are not doing it purely for the reward, you're 3 chesting 10s right now for the reward, and many are already capable of 3 chesting 15s, for what it matters the loot was reduced, no one who does it for the loot goes beyond loot cap... its just not worth the effort...

So your point is moot.

[BergErr]

Except you aren't 3 chesting 19s so 3 > 2.

In 7.2.5 you will 3 chest 19s no problem, some can do it now. +15 3 chests in 7.2.5 will be like 10s now, a joke for any decent grp.

[Svisalith]

2 chesting 10's now is a joke

2 chesting 15's in TOS gear will be a joke

therefore big loot nerf because doing higher keys do not give better loot or more loot

2-3 chest right now gives +33.3% to +100% more loot than the new system

[Wildpantz]

Youre stupid. Low keys will be run by proper ilvl people since no depletion no risk. High geard people wont have to boost anymore. Also its a increase in loot and ap for all 1 chest runs this will be a massive increase for lower geard people and a nerf to overgeard players boosting.

[Crysth]

Youre stupid. Low keys will be run by proper ilvl people since no depletion no risk. High geard people wont have to boost anymore. Also its a increase in loot and ap for all 1 chest runs this will be a massive increase for lower geard people and a nerf to overgeard players boosting.

All depends on why they are boosting. Many boost for AP grinding, which loot per run won't be a factor. You'll still see just as many carry groups, since some people that have grinded Concordance on one spec will grind it for another spec, or they are grinding it on their favorite alt or two.

[BannedForViews]

Who's doing 19s? Unless you enjoy the challenge, which then you are not doing it purely for the reward, you're 3 chesting 10s right now for the reward, and many are already capable of 3 chesting 15s, for what it matters the loot was reduced, no one who does it for the loot goes beyond loot cap... its just not worth the effort...

So your point is moot.

Well first, you're wrong. Plenty of people go past 10. I got past 10. My first key this week was an 18. I do it for loot, because currently you need to keep advancing keys to do dungeons, outside of forming a carry group, which not everyone likes to do. With these changes I'd be able to purposely lower a key to keep it active, which is a very positive change. More dungeons run equals more loot.

[Onikaroshi]

Well first, you're wrong. Plenty of people go past 10. I got past 10. My first key this week was an 18. I do it for loot, because currently you need to keep advancing keys to do dungeons, outside of forming a carry group, which not everyone likes to do. With these changes I'd be able to purposely lower a key to keep it active, which is a very positive change. More dungeons run equals more loot.

For anyone doing this for loot its a huge loot nerf, what can't you understand about that. Time is NOT unlimited, if I only had time for 5 dungeons in 7.2 I still only have time for 5 dungeons in 7.2.5.

I can easily get ahold of 5-10 +10 keys, its not that hard. Right now if I have time for 5 dungeons each of those dungeons drops 6 pieces of loot in 7.2 which comes out to 30 pieces total for the group. With the changes I still only have time for 5 dungeons but instead I get 15 pieces for the group in that time period....

Unless you're shit and can't even +2 a M+ (you can easily get enough gear outside of M+ and even organized raiding to do this, I have multiple alts 880+ who have never done anything more than heroic dungeons and LFR) or you like the challenge and push for the fun (these changes do not incentivize pushing, it'll be the same people now as it was then) you are getting hurt by the change to loot.

The key change is fine, the loot change is not.

Remember... time is limited, just because you can get infinite keys doesn't me you'll have more time then now.

[BannedForViews]

For anyone doing this for loot its a huge loot nerf, what can't you understand about that. Time is NOT unlimited, if I only had time for 5 dungeons in 7.2 I still only have time for 5 dungeons in 7.2.5.

I can easily get ahold of 5-10 +10 keys, its not that hard. Right now if I have time for 5 dungeons each of those dungeons drops 6 pieces of loot in 7.2 which comes out to 30 pieces total for the group. With the changes I still only have time for 5 dungeons but instead I get 15 pieces for the group in that time period....

Unless you're shit and can't even +2 a M+ (you can easily get enough gear outside of M+ and even organized raiding to do this, I have multiple alts 880+ who have never done anything more than heroic dungeons and LFR) or you like the challenge and push for the fun (these changes do not incentivize pushing, it'll be the same people now as it was then) you are getting hurt by the change to loot.

The key change is fine, the loot change is not.

Remember... time is limited, just because you can get infinite keys doesn't me you'll have more time then now.

You need to get over your believe that you are owed 6 pieces of loot. I doubt you 3 chest as many as you may think you do, and even if you did, they can always tweak the quality of the loot to make it more attractive. You are creating a fictional narrative, you are not arguing reality here.

For most people, carrying keys or even getting into random groups isn't very viable. The goal here is that it will be much easier for an 880 dps to pick up a group and run a key. The speed they save looking makes up for any slight in loot, which I think will probably be bumped to 4 pieces which a 2 chest gives. For people who only like to run with guild/friends, they will have a near unlimited supply of keys to keep running. This is a positive. The only people really hurt here are those who spam carries for titan forge (fuck them), and those who rerun high level depleted keys for m+ rating, and I bet they'll add an option to keep your depleted key if you want to.

For nearly everyone this is a good change. The only way they could make it better is letting us coin them.

[Onikaroshi]

You need to get over your believe that you are owed 6 pieces of loot. I doubt you 3 chest as many as you may think you do, and even if you did, they can always tweak the quality of the loot to make it more attractive. You are creating a fictional narrative, you are not arguing reality here.

For most people, carrying keys or even getting into random groups isn't very viable. The goal here is that it will be much easier for an 880 dps to pick up a group and run a key. The speed they save looking makes up for any slight in loot, which I think will probably be bumped to 4 pieces which a 2 chest gives. For people who only like to run with guild/friends, they will have a near unlimited supply of keys to keep running. This is a positive. The only people really hurt here are those who spam carries for titan forge (fuck them), and those who rerun high level depleted keys for m+ rating, and I bet they'll add an option to keep your depleted key if you want to.

For nearly everyone this is a good change. The only way they could make it better is letting us coin them.

It's not a fictional narrative, its real life, this is anectodal. We 3 chest anything on +10, any affix, they're not hard. If it was ALWAYS three pieces it would be fine, but its been 6 pieces since they start M+ in dec, that is what makes it shitty on their part for even suggesting it, time investment vs. reward is taking a huge hit if the loot changes go through.

They're trying to fix a few things and of which they MAY only fix one:

1. Low ilvls not being taken for fear of depletion. Not being fixed because its a community thing, hence 900+ ilvl Aotc normal N. It's not about what drops, or anything, its about speed and ease of completion. In fact, there will be less things for lower ilvls to join because...

2. Less people boosting lower keys because its mostly guilds and now they can have as many of ANY level key that they want, so it actually screws over the people at the lower ilvl spectrum.

3. Getting people to push. It's not even touching this cause the reward for pushing is the same, same gear ilvl as the cap and a little more AP that eventually caps out. Well guess what, you're not going to entice pushing with AP, a +10 is quicker than a +15 is quicker than a +20. If you're still doing it for AP you're farming something that takes you the least amount of time for the most amount of gain. If they want to get people pushing they need to reward them with things like higher ilvl, more loot drops, higher legendary chance.

The only good change right now is the depletion change, the loot change is horrible and will probably make me drop M+ as a whole. It was a good idea but they decided to kill it for me.

I still don't understand how people can look at these changes and be like FUCK YEA LESS LOOT IS AWESOME.

[ItsTiddles]

I don't get why people are confused as to why Blizzard "nerfed" the loot. With the new depletion mechanic, it only makes sense to reduce the amount dropped from a 3 chest. You now can have infinite chests where your only limit is time. If I could farm a +10 (or future +15) and repeatedly get a 3 chest then deplete my key back down to 10 (15) within minutes, the amount of gear I could get would be ridiculous. It still will ridiculous because people will most definitely abuse this unless Blizzard puts in some sort of limit on depletion. Blizzard would be out of their mind to keep the rewards as massive as they are while simultaneously bringing in unlimited keystones within 1 group because some of the player base only plays for a couple hours a day.

[Onikaroshi]

I don't get why people are confused as to why Blizzard "nerfed" the loot. With the new depletion mechanic, it only makes sense to reduce the amount dropped from a 3 chest. You now can have infinite chests where your only limit is time. If I could farm a +10 (or future +15) and repeatedly get a 3 chest then deplete my key back down to 10 (15) within minutes, the amount of gear I could get would be ridiculous. It still will ridiculous because people will most definitely abuse this unless Blizzard puts in some sort of limit on depletion. Blizzard would be out of their mind to keep the rewards as massive as they are while simultaneously bringing in unlimited keystones within 1 group because some of the player base only plays for a couple hours a day.

There's already unlimited keys, and it only takes seconds to get more right now, all this does is fuck over people with limited time. We can only get at MOST 5 M+ runs together in a week, that's not going to change, our "key" limit is still 5 keys.

In fact, it doesn't change anyone's limit, if people are going to run 20 M+ in a day in 7.2.5, they're already doing that now.