CoEN is such a bad design and untested

[Evilmoo]

that it had to be nerfed TWICE by ~50% to come to level of current dungeons.
Did blizzard really fire all QA?

[cparle87]

I guess they overestimated their player base. Kara was a step up from the launch mythics. Then 7.2 raised the launch mythics up to Kara-ish level and they gave us one tougher in CoEN, but the average Tom, Dick, and Larry couldn't handle it. Or worse. Just yesterday wiped like 5x on Smashspite. I'm the tank and I'm the only one left alive each time. And my entire group confesses it was their first time in the dungeon and they hadn't even read the dungeon journal. But it's "just a reg mythic" so obviously you can just wing everything and one shot the place, amirite?

[Deleted]

Because the instance was too hard? Not really. The average playerbase is just too stupid and too bad.

If something like dungeons seem to hard it's also the fault of the playerbase testing on the PTR and not reporting it.

You know the routine of those things at Blizz's development? They play it by their own. If it feels right for them they nerf it because of the problem mentioned above (bad players if you have forgotten).

Also, those nerfs are mostly for High M+. M+ are progressive. If some things are too easy on lower difficulties these may be insane with some affixes on High M+, like CoS endboss.

Still, the instance was not too hard. Cryhards just....cried too much and they want content for everyone.
Like people not moving in the shield at the endboss or killing adds if the DPS are not high enough. SO HARD, MUCH DAMAGE, SO WOW.

[Fleckens]

Because the instance was too hard? Not really. The average playerbase is just too stupid and too bad.

If something like dungeons seem to hard it's also the fault of the playerbase testing on the PTR and not reporting it.

You know the routine of those things at Blizz's development? They play it by their own. If it feels right for them they nerf it because of the problem mentioned above (bad players if you have forgotten).

Also, those nerfs are mostly for High M+. M+ are progressive. If some things are too easy on lower difficulties these may be insane with some affixes on High M+, like CoS endboss.

Still, the instance was not too hard. Cryhards just....cried too much and they want content for everyone.
Like people not moving in the shield at the endboss or killing adds if the DPS are not high enough. SO HARD, MUCH DAMAGE, SO WOW.

No, it was just poorly tuned. Unless it got unique mythic+ scaling for itself it would have to be at a same base level as all the other dungeons, if not it would just be far harder on mythic+ than other dungeons, which is exactly how it was.

[Deleted]

No, it was just poorly tuned. Unless it got unique mythic+ scaling for itself it would have to be at a same base level as all the other dungeons, if not it would just be far harder on mythic+ than other dungeons, which is exactly how it was.

So every harder boss in M+ with higher keys needs a proper tuning? There are several bosses and instances that are harder and easier compared to other instances. As mentioned above, CoS' last boss. This is an insane damage race on higher M+ and therefore needs a nerf? No, not really.

[Shauren]

The problem with CoEN is that you can get M+ keystone for it rolled randomly together with all other dungeons - so that a +15 CoEN has roughly the same difficulty as +15 any other dungeon, and judging by the 50% nerfs this clearly was not the case

It would have been fine at its original difficulty level if it was on the same dungeon pool as rest of them and dropped better loot (it doesn't even do that)

[wewe]

It is not bad design. It's actually quite a nice dungeon.
The nerfs were needed to bring them in line with other dungeons on high m+ difficulties and not because the dungeon is bad.
They could have buffed all other dungeons to the level of CoEN but that would have resulted in a massive outcry because you'd actually have to have a brain to complete a m+ at 10 or above.

[Puri]

I guess they overestimated their player base. Kara was a step up from the launch mythics. Then 7.2 raised the launch mythics up to Kara-ish level and they gave us one tougher in CoEN, but the average Tom, Dick, and Larry couldn't handle it. Or worse. Just yesterday wiped like 5x on Smashspite. I'm the tank and I'm the only one left alive each time. And my entire group confesses it was their first time in the dungeon and they hadn't even read the dungeon journal. But it's "just a reg mythic" so obviously you can just wing everything and one shot the place, amirite?

This would be true if we didn't have m+.
With m+, you want the instances as balanced as possible, there is no place for progression in dungeon tiers as long as they remain on the same keystone random roll with the same rewards.

[gushDH]

Well, it is still the least done key, just because it's new and players can't be arsed to try to perfect their performance on something new without any new reward.

Personally, if I get CoEN as my key at any level, I just don't bother and just find a random +10 at premade groups to rush through.

[Deleted]

So every harder boss in M+ with higher keys needs a proper tuning? There are several bosses and instances that are harder and easier compared to other instances. As mentioned above, CoS' last boss. This is an insane damage race on higher M+ and therefore needs a nerf? No, not really.

It was obvious to everyone who does a lot of M+ that with the release of CoeN a CoeN +X key was way harder than every other Dungeon of the same key-lvl.

The first boss has now been nerfed for the 2nd or 3rd time? We did a +16 CoeN in the 2nd week and after that avoided high CoeN keys, because if was just not worth it.

Just looking at wowprogress. CoeN +18 was the highest key in time before the recent nerfs, +22 not in time.

Other Dungeons:
Brh: +22 in time, 25 not in time
CoS: +26 in time and not in time
DHT: +24 in time and not in time
EoA: +25 in time and not in time
HoV: +25 in time and not in time
MoS: +23 in time and not in time
NL: +24 in time and not in time
Lower Kara: +21 in time, +24 not in time
Upper Kara:+22 in time, +24 not in time
Arcway: +24 in time, +26 not in time
VotW: +23 in time, +27 not in time

Yes dungeons have different difficulties, but CoeN was clearly an outlier and overtuned compared to all other dungeons

[Shostradamus]

Well, it is still the least done key, just because it's new and players can't be arsed to try to perfect their performance on something new without any new reward.

Personally, if I get CoEN as my key at any level, I just don't bother and just find a random +10 at premade groups to rush through.

But how much of it is "players need to work harder to perfect speed runs" and how much is Mephistroth 11 having significantly more health and doing significantly more damage than a boss from a 15? This isnt just a matter of dungeon too hard, plz nerf. It's a matter of oh I get the same loot and the same reward for twice the effort, no thanks.

[Fleuria]

I think people missed the point of the fact, some of the bosses in the dungeon had 100-200mil more health than an equal boss in another dungeon x)

[Gaidax]

Honestly I am a bit shocked it was nerfed that hard. I never perceived it as overtuned really.

[Rehok]

Why is it when something is hard people complain? Like honestly, If its hard but still do-able, Good. If it just gets nerfed and it becomes a cake walk it makes it boring, On +12 with Grevious pre-nerf, the only hard part was the Last boss because theres a fair amount of AoE Dmg going out on the party that they drop below 90% easy. Sure somethings can be toned down at higher lvls but that will get easier as we get ToS Gear

[huth]

So every harder boss in M+ with higher keys needs a proper tuning? There are several bosses and instances that are harder and easier compared to other instances. As mentioned above, CoS' last boss. This is an insane damage race on higher M+ and therefore needs a nerf? No, not really.

There's some slight differences that often come down to group setup in the other M+. CoEN was just far and away much harder than all of them regardless of setup. Doesn't help that it had some annoying bugs as well.
(Illidan's hitbox encompassing the entire room? Well, guess we'll just do something else.)

[pseudoJ]

Personally I don't like the changes -- I've got my hands on higher (15) ilvl CoEN keystyone just this week and was about to run that tonight, with these hotfixes I won't be able to compare myself with those who finished it earlier (guess we are doing that 18 another guild member got, instead)...

Objectively this change was required since CoEN rewards the same loot as the rest of the dungeons.

[Adlian]

For the people that say COEN is easy, have you done it on M+ 10 and above? (before the nerfs from yesterday)

[Nnyco]

pre-nerf we had people get 1shot by last boss when he applied the debuff, people in this thread clearly havent done cathedral on higher m+ or they would understand these nerfs

[pseudoJ]

Yes, in fact we purposely boosted 10-12 one week because it is a very simple dungeon with a high supply of keys.

If the entire group was geared similarly to you, then yes 10-12 might have seem easy. I've done +12 myself (with group at around 904 ilvl) and considering most of us were there for 2nd time (1st time on higher mythic) it wasn't that hard (and mostly the issues where us not knowing mechanics or me not anticipating damage patterns). That said, the dungeon was easily comparable to other dungeons at around +16.

However calling that dungeon easy while running it on the easy difficulty (if we consider only level 10-20). while outgearing it this much, is either lack of sensible judgement or just stroking of (your) ego.

[chronia]

I think that CoEN Mythic (Not keystone) was fine, it was a step up from Kara, which was a step up from the release set of dungeons. Not a real problem there, and it wasn't to hard that it was not completeable day 1 without any nerfs.

However Keystone runs it was a totally different story, and CoEN key's higher than +9 where basicly dead key's (my group did do a 10 once and completed it, but it was just not worth the effort when a CoEN 10 is about on par with a +15 on any other key). The scaling for CoEN (and Kara Lower and Upper, altough both Kara's less than CoEN) is just plainly wrong implemented. A +10 key should be about as difficult in every dungeon scaling wise, while the weeks affixes should make it so that there is a slight variation in dungeon difficulty (Dungeon A possibly being a bit harder than B on Tyrannical weeks, while Dungeon B is harder than A on fortified weeks, which is fine). While now in the current System whatever the affixes, CoEN and both Kara's to a lesser extend are always harder than any comparable level key from the release set of dungeons (atleast up to 16-17, maybe it gets different when pushing 20+, but i havent done those yet), which is just a example of bad tuning on Blizzard part.