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  1. #21
    Part of it is at least 85% of the players in this game are donation tier leaving a minority of players who have skill to accompany their item levels and character strength. Blizzard didnt "overestimate" players, they're just out of touch because the data presented is from skilled players and then players later down the line being carried by their item levels.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by cetraben View Post
    This is the key (pun kind of intended) part of what makes the dungeon "hard", the fact people have little exposure to it or its mechanics.
    Let's omit the part where I stated "the dungeon was easily comparable to other dungeons at around +16."

    Also would I be correct in assuming you did this dungeon with your Paladin (the one linked in your signature)? If so, then -- unless you go and run hat dungeon on something upwards +17 -- your opinion is not so relevant. Since WoWProgress clearly shows you haven't done CoEN higher than +12.

    Although it's possible that you don't run high level keys (not just cathedral) because you don't find that challenging enough -- which might be the case for a lot of people with 10/10M progress. Although I don't think that saying "it's not hard unless it's hard for the top percentage of players" holds true either.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy1 View Post
    Part of it is at least 85% of the players in this game are donation tier leaving a minority of players who have skill to accompany their item levels and character strength. Blizzard didnt "overestimate" players, they're just out of touch because the data presented is from skilled players and then players later down the line being carried by their item levels.
    That's not really the issue since the "top pushers" clearly managed to push everything else higher than CoEN. The reason why they are applying these nerfs is not that the dungeon is too hard -- it's too hard at certain levels. Do you find CoEN easy up until +20? Ok, I guess nothing changes for you beside the fact that you now can do +30 as with all the other dungeons.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I guess they overestimated their player base. Kara was a step up from the launch mythics. Then 7.2 raised the launch mythics up to Kara-ish level and they gave us one tougher in CoEN, but the average Tom, Dick, and Larry couldn't handle it. Or worse. Just yesterday wiped like 5x on Smashspite. I'm the tank and I'm the only one left alive each time. And my entire group confesses it was their first time in the dungeon and they hadn't even read the dungeon journal. But it's "just a reg mythic" so obviously you can just wing everything and one shot the place, amirite?
    On regular mythic, the tank can eat every single charge just fine so HOW did they manage to die? Did you go with 4 newly dinged dps and no healer?

  4. #24
    Deleted
    The dungeon wasnt hard, it was just extremely buggy at launch (first boss was way overtuned imo). Also its just not worth running the dungeon because of the shit loot that the dungeon drops.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I guess they overestimated their player base. Kara was a step up from the launch mythics. Then 7.2 raised the launch mythics up to Kara-ish level and they gave us one tougher in CoEN, but the average Tom, Dick, and Larry couldn't handle it. Or worse. Just yesterday wiped like 5x on Smashspite. I'm the tank and I'm the only one left alive each time. And my entire group confesses it was their first time in the dungeon and they hadn't even read the dungeon journal. But it's "just a reg mythic" so obviously you can just wing everything and one shot the place, amirite?
    I'm also a tank and the very same situation happens to me quite often, I feel you bro.

    However, the underlying problem here is that the game keeps telling its players "this is what 5man mythic difficulty looks like" so after brainlessly going thru old 5man mythics, it's just natural for pretty much everyone to expect the same kind of challenge from something labeled with THE SAME difficulty description.

    People should read the journal just as much as blizzard shouldn't label things identically if it's not identical.

  6. #26
    The completion stats -- hell, the stats for people just entering the place -- must have been just hilariously bad for them to nerf it like this, twice.

    First impressions matter, and I don't think CoEN is going to overcome the dev blundering no matter what they do.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by JajaBongs View Post
    Because the instance was too hard? Not really. The average playerbase is just too stupid and too bad.

    If something like dungeons seem to hard it's also the fault of the playerbase testing on the PTR and not reporting it.

    You know the routine of those things at Blizz's development? They play it by their own. If it feels right for them they nerf it because of the problem mentioned above (bad players if you have forgotten).

    Also, those nerfs are mostly for High M+. M+ are progressive. If some things are too easy on lower difficulties these may be insane with some affixes on High M+, like CoS endboss.

    Still, the instance was not too hard. Cryhards just....cried too much and they want content for everyone.
    Like people not moving in the shield at the endboss or killing adds if the DPS are not high enough. SO HARD, MUCH DAMAGE, SO WOW.
    Yeah, the istance was so well balanced that the higthes CoEN completed is only a +22. Pretty much every single other istance was cleared at last at level 24. 100% balanced.

    CoEN was just massively overtuned.

  8. #28
    I remember when CoEN first came out, we did +14 and it took us like 3 hours to complete only because of the last boss. Last boss before any nerfs was insane. It took constant 800k hps from me for the whole fight duration because of pillar damage and p2 ticking damage was insane too. And there was nothing you could "dodge" to prevent those numbers. Hell, it wasnt even tyrannical week. Any other +14 at the time was a complete walk in the park so I totally get all these nerfs to bring it down to other dungeon difficulties. I think it was like top 20-30 run at the time on wowprogress too.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by cetraben View Post
    Yes, in fact we purposely boosted 10-12 one week because it is a very simple dungeon with a high supply of keys.
    yeah but 10-12 is very low. i think it was 14 where where bosses begin to oneshot dps and heal with their unavoidable mechanics.

  10. #30
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilmoo View Post
    that it had to be nerfed TWICE by ~50% to come to level of current dungeons.
    Did blizzard really fire all QA?
    Or they had too much faith in their retarded playerbase

  11. #31
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by cetraben View Post
    This is the key (pun kind of intended) part of what makes the dungeon "hard", the fact people have little exposure to it or its mechanics.
    I wonder if you have ever done that dungeon above ~14. You need to pretty ignorant to not acknowledge numbers in this instance are way off, some people allready brought up some substantial evidence for that (highest clear intime/not intime).

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by JajaBongs View Post
    Because the instance was too hard? Not really. The average playerbase is just too stupid and too bad.

    If something like dungeons seem to hard it's also the fault of the playerbase testing on the PTR and not reporting it.

    You know the routine of those things at Blizz's development? They play it by their own. If it feels right for them they nerf it because of the problem mentioned above (bad players if you have forgotten).

    Also, those nerfs are mostly for High M+. M+ are progressive. If some things are too easy on lower difficulties these may be insane with some affixes on High M+, like CoS endboss.

    Still, the instance was not too hard. Cryhards just....cried too much and they want content for everyone.
    Like people not moving in the shield at the endboss or killing adds if the DPS are not high enough. SO HARD, MUCH DAMAGE, SO WOW.
    ...but you just said the the end boss in CoS is insane at high m+. I'm sorry you struggle with such an easy encounter.

  13. #33
    Deleted
    Shitty items, with shitty tuning, pretty obvious why people wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

  14. #34
    oh and to the person telling us its the playerbase's fault because we didn't report that on ptr, let me tell you how ptr testing went down.
    First of all you had to unlock the dungeon as on live, not a big deal but still 5people that have to put the time to do that. (btw kara wasn't able to be tested later on at all, because when copying your character it didn't copy over that you did the kara questline so you'd have to do that on ptr on a fresh character)
    Now in regular mythic dungeons you got scaled to 850 and for keystone dungeons to 890. However 80% of our testruns bugged out and we got scaled to 850 in keystone runs aswell, rezoning, restarting etc. wouldn't help and yes I did report that on their forums, aswell as the kara-prequest thing.
    Early on, when balancing wasn't done yet, you could buy up to level 7 keys, but that was bugged at the end and you'd only get level 2 keys, so in order to properly test all affixes and bosses on tyrannical you have to play your keystone multiple times AND get lucky to get a CoEN key, only to get in there and test it with 850 gear while having 63 traits.
    The testing environment was completly off to how it'll go down on live, and if they're not giving us the tools to create whatever keystone we want to test, its not worth the time and rng, this is definetly QA work.

    And yes if you don't think that lower/upper kara and CoEN were overtuned you have cleeeeaaaarly not done those dungeons on a relevant level yet. My group STILL holds the best intime key for CoEN being a +18 done in the teeming/explosive/fortified week, which is like 4weeks ago now? Everyone is dodging that dungeon because its not worth.
    Its also not a matter of hard or easy, I would love to have all dungeons in line with CoEN. Being able to clear up to +25 while +10 is the highest reward is stupid, but the fact is that CoEN was overtuned numberwise compared to other dungeons. btw you may remember my question from the Q&A where I asked about nerfs for CoEN/kara just because of that, they answered "yeayea its because you haven't played them that much yet" they clearly haven't played those dungeons on a higher level themselves.

  15. #35
    Deleted
    Even after the first set of nerfs, CoEN was still about 3 keystone levels higher tuned than the other dungeons. A +14 CoEN felt like a +17 Vault or HoV. These nerfs might be going a bit too far, but probably help in making this dungeon more popular with the playerbase. Can't tell you how often I've heard in TS: "OK, this key is dead: +16 CoEN", despite the fact that it would have still be doable, but maybe not as easily as a HoV.

    The only ones still extremely overtuned are the 2 Kara ones. We're still holding a 100ish world rank on a +20 Upper Cara that we did on fortified/volcanic week. The wyrm is tuned unbelievably hard with cleansing the bubble debuff taking you down to 20% health instantly. Basically really only doable in combos that has enough immunities to cheese the boss.

    I'm not even talking about teeming lower Kara

  16. #36
    I'm starting to wonder if Activision-Blizzard fired the entire team that worked on the start of Legion. Like they saw players having too much fun and took a nerf bat to the devs irl to bring in these braindead code monkeys we have now.

    Seriously, 7.2 has been nothing but repeated bugs, stealth nerfs, untested implementations etc. The worse part is... 7.2 was on PTR for months (granted, some of the most buggy changes weren't actually ON the PTR...). What's the point of the PTR nowadays? To crowd-source marketing for upcoming patches to Twitch streamers and game journalists?

  17. #37
    Anything over +16 for CoEN is a dead key for most people, Upper Kara is almost in the same boat on Tyrannical (Mana Devourer) AND Fortified (Curator trash).

  18. #38
    Its design is bad indeed. Hard? No. Absurdly packed with fucking aoe packs everywhere, and mobs designed to irritate a player as much as humanly possible? Yes indeed.

    Not to mention bad drops from that dungeon. Remember WotLK and ToC 5-man instance? It was dull, but it had awesome trinkets and weapons in boss' drops, which made people run it again and again and again. Then three next dungeons came alongside with ICC and story repeated itself, again good weapons and trinkets in boss drops, which made people run dungeons again and again and again. CoEN? Absolutely nothing good in boss drops. Why blizzard so desperately fails to use their own great working designs? Because Ian dumbasscostas is too stubborn to prove he's good so he must invent a bicycle all the time? What a fucking moron.
    No more time wasted in WoW.. still reading this awesome forum, though

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by cetraben View Post
    Yes, in fact we purposely boosted 10-12 one week because it is a very simple dungeon with a high supply of keys.
    Assuming that's after the first set of nerfs, right? As doing it on +10 or higher before that was really difficult, especially on tyrannical weeks. At this point 10 keys are really not very high considering most people in mythic guilds can push most keys to around 20 without too much trouble. The dungeon was definitely harder than the rest. Guess we will see if these changes bring it in line with the rest of the dungeons.

  20. #40
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilmoo View Post
    that it had to be nerfed TWICE by ~50% to come to level of current dungeons.
    Did blizzard really fire all QA?
    First of all, there's a big difference between design+ bug testing and tuning+parameters. For COEN there's the following hotfixes:


    Cathedral of Eternal Night
    Group Finder groups should now properly end the dungeon with Mephistroth.
    Cathedral of Eternal Night
    Agronox
    Succulent Lashers now have significantly less health in Mythic difficulty.
    Succulent Secretion now does much less damage in Mythic difficulty.
    Poisonous Spores now hits for slightly less, and is limited to 5 stacks in Heroic and Mythic difficulties.
    Fulminating Lashers can now be stunned or snared.

    The Cathedral of Eternal Night
    Agronox
    Reduced Timber Smash damage by 20% on all difficulties.
    Thrashbite the Scornful
    Pulverizing Cudgel’s unavoidable damage reduced by 30% on all difficulties.
    Domatrax
    Reduced the amount of damage from Shadow Sweep on Mythic difficulties.
    Hellblaze Mistresses do significantly less damage on Mythic difficulties.
    Mephistroth
    Mephistroth health reduced by 30% on all difficulties.
    Felblaze damage reduced by 30% on all difficulties.
    Demonic Upheaveal’s unavoidable damage reduced by 60% on all difficulties.
    Creeping Shadows gain stacks more slowly on all difficulties.
    Shadow Blast impact damage reduced by 50% on all difficulties.
    Cathedral of Eternal Night

    Helblaze Felbringers’ Devastating Swipe now deals 60% less damage on all difficulties.
    Agronox
    Reduced Agronox’s health by 25% on all difficulties.
    Succulent Lashers’ Succulent Secretion now initially explodes for 80% less damage on all difficulties.
    Succulent Lashers’ Succulent Secretion’s periodic damage reduced by 50% on all difficulties.
    The health of Fulminating Lashers has been reduced by 30% on all difficulties, to match other Fulminating Lashers in the dungeon.
    The damage done by Choking Vines has been reduced by 50% on all difficulties, to match other Choking Vines in the dungeon.
    Domatrax
    Reduced Domatrax’s melee damage by 50% on all difficulties.
    So in fact,the dungeon is well designed and fairly unbugged, the big issue is the tuning of it - an exponential issue when tied with the scaling system of mythic+ and with reward expectations.

    You cannot expect Blizzard to get that right from the start, given just internal testing and some public testing(which will be done by randoms mostly).

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