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  1. #121
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graden View Post
    I can't argue with that.
    Speaking of which, I'm really afraid of Genn's future, he is very old, I'm not sure how many years he has left.
    Assuming the Worgen curse doesn't affect life extension at all, I'd guess he has another decade left max. I want him to accomplish something great before he is done for good, like, retaking Gilneas .
    Something that unfortunately it's not going to happen any time soon.
    The Worgen Curse includes a connection to the Emerald Dream and a quasi-Druidic aspect to its many symptoms, which includes an enhanced hardiness and resistance to diseases of all kinds. Genn is elderly, but as a product of the Worgen Curse he may live quite a bit longer than a normal human in the Warcraft universe.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  2. #122
    Ehhh, there's still Jaina, Odyn, Kerrilldank, Moron'zhu and Vol'jin in WoW and you pick Genn?. Gotta agree that putting a fuckwit like Genn in command is rather idiotic of the Alliance though. A bit too unhinged for that responsibility.


    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    Not this again. It can't be the time of the day again when people have to explain once again how characters are not omnipresent and omniscient in regards to the Broken Shore, how the Horde's hordes of undead ruined his people, family and kingdom.
    And yet the Alliance could see the most important event on the Horde's side and the thing that led them to withdraw, i.e. spaceships warping in and nuking the Horde site, just fine. Then there's the gunship that offered aerial view.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2017-05-09 at 07:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  3. #123
    A character having flaws or you not agreeing with his thoughts doesn't make him badly written.
    A character doing things he normally wouldn't is badly written.
    A character suddenly doing a complete 180 in behaviour is badly written.

    Garrosh is a good example of the latter. I mean, his descent into madness could have been a good way to go, but it just didn't have enough build up. Instead we got this weird 180 in his character; Badly written.

    Genn has flaws. Some of his opinions aren't all that fair, though you can see where he is coming from if you try to see things from his perspective.
    However, he stays in character and I haven't yet seen a complete 180 in behaviour. He is actually a decent written character if you compare it to some others.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    No, Khadgar immediately knew that the planar effect had not been severed which is why they created Nethergarde Keep in the first place. If Nethergarde Keep had been right on top of the portal, Teron would never have been able to cross and gather his artifacts from Dalaran or if he somehow did manage there would have been some advance warning.
    Sorry, I was thinking after Beyond the Dark Portal. In any case, it certainly had been sealed and thus sending the orcs (or anything else for that matter) back through it wasn't an option.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    "the forsaken merely finished the job" > and this is exactly why he hates them; they decided that it is their right to cull his people and they are arrogant enough to believe that it is their right to decide the fate of whatever living beings they attack. This resulted in them doing what they've done, which is why he hates them..
    And yet the invasion wasn't even their decision.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  6. #126
    out for revenge for no reason
    uuuuh what? you don't count his son/country being fucked over as reasons for revenge? oooohkay

    Genn may be a dick but him being a dick has been a pretty consistent part of his character going back to WCII.

  7. #127
    Epic! Whitedragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    What motive? He is literally chasing Sylvanas for no reason. Hes like one of those people that stalk women on social media, get rejected, and go shit-crazy after getting rejected and continue to stalk them.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Med'an isn't even in WoW.
    I think a more apt description would be its like someone killed your kid, the justice system more or less let them off the hook, while the father is not going to let the killer off as easily, and as such is taking a more vigilante justice approach. To be fair to all parties involved Sylvanas is no saint either, and as others have mentioned Genn isn't Omnipresent in this world. Its easy to burn his house down but in the end, as an opposing faction leader he is going to get more information about the misgivings of a character rather then their positives. Unless Sylvanas did something truly heroic or selfless she isn't going to shake this stigmata anytime soon, and lets be honest she isn't trying to improve anyone's opinion of her either.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    How isn't it more evil..? Greymane didn't cause the destruction of Lordaeron like Sylvanas caused the complete destruction of Gilneas.
    She single-handedly destroyed Gilneas now? So there wasn't a Cataclysm ravaging the zone?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  9. #129
    You remember how everyone complained about how Thrall made no bad decisions, didn't let actual emotions impact his actions and was literally perfect, and fans didn't like that?
    So, you are... actually criticizing Greymane for making bad decisions? What the fuck? Ever heard of personalities? And not everyone being fucking perfect?

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Ondray View Post
    Why the hell is this thread still going? Why would anyone react to that bullshit what OP spewed? Genn is starting wars? Liam commited suicide?
    The Forsaken didn't exactly destroy their own ships for the lulz in Stormheim.


    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    He knew they would die to the scourge and chose to ignore the plea for help, he did nothing, not even Anasterian, someone who had no high regard for humans was ever that cruel, at least sending token support if asked. This inaction destroyed the last shred of hope for the people of Lordaeron, and these very same people returned years later and repaid the gilneans in kind, plunging them into the abyss of hopelessness.

    The story merely came full circle
    One thing that makes me wonder about this is how there were still living Lordaeron survivors camping by the gate in vanilla, four years after Scourge exterminated Loraderon's population.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hugnomo View Post
    But once again, from the alliance's perspective anyway, Sylvanas did not have their back and left them to die. Genn is not omniscient to know that they were overwhelmed, he saw her flee and that's it. And because of that, his dear friend Varian perished. It's completely justified, considering how the events unraveled from his point of view, for him to act the way he did.
    But fanboyism can get in the way of understanding it.
    I love like both sylvanas' and genn's characters, it's possible.
    You can see Legion's spaceships warping in and bombing the living shit from the Horde just fine from Alliance's position. And they had a gunship that arrived moments later. Its crew should have perfect view of what was going on up there. Hell, even Genn should have been able to see the portals, spaceships and a sea of demons near Horde's position once he got onto the gunship. He either turned a blind eye or outright ignored what he saw. Apparently, so did you. Something something fanboyism can get in the way of understanding it. And Sylvanas wasn't even the leading commander at the Broken Shore.


    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Oh no the anti-Sylvanas character is the worst written in WoW.

    the least surprising thread on this subforum ever.
    Someone dislikes character that is against Sylvanas? Obviously it's because of the fact that they are against Sylvanas! No other option is possible! Reminds me of the time when you graced Vereesa's Rate The Character thread with your rambling.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ondray View Post
    I am still wondering how Genn dares to oppose poor Sylvanas. All she wanted was live in peace.. But those expansive humans from Gilneas, Silverpine, Hillsbrad were taking her lands, killing forsaken kids and women, burning their houses.. She really had no choice but plague these invaders.
    Fail sarcasm is failed. Humans in Silverpine were expansive and provoked hostilities. Humans in Hillsbrad could have also be the ones that started hostilities. Hillsbrad is Lordaeron territory and given how Forsaken forged a successor state of Lordaeron they have a solid claim on it. And even then they Blighted Southshore and took over other areas only after a world war was started by the Alliance even though they could have done that years earlier. And Gilneas invasion was started by Garrosh.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Your avatar is sylvannas, and you're saying Genn is the worst-written character?

    When Genn has died three times, been magically resurrected two of those times, has lost his city twice, required the opposing faction to help him take it back a second time, gets subverted and killed by a guy acting right under his nose, gets beaten up by peasants, runs face-first into his age-old enemy only to get his ass whooped, requires a magical deus-ex machina army to accomplish anything, then becomes leader of his faction by default after learning NOTHING from any of those experiences and not progressing as a character a single iota...

    Then he might be even with Sylvanas' bad writing.
    Lost his city twice: check. Sylvanas forced the Worgen out of Gilneas at the end of Worgen starting experience. Then, after being recaptured by the 7th Legion, it was ultimately lost again, with Worgen abandoning Gilneas as a whole for good.

    Runs face-first into his age-old enemy only to get his ass whooped: check. Unless you think almost dying to Sylvanas' poison when she didn't even take him seriously is something else than getting his ass kicked.

    Requires a magical deus-ex machina army to accomplish anything: check. Gilneas population was already ravaged by the civil war and Worgen outbreak before the Greymane Wall even fell. After they left Gilneas they escaped to Darnassus. A district of it. Worgen shouldn't have the population to match the Forsaken on their own, yet they do.

    Subverted and killed by a guy right under his nose: partial check. Gets betrayed by Godfrey, almost died in the process.

    Required the opposing faction to help him take it back a second time is horseshit since the Horde neither needed Alliance's help to reclaim Undercity. Horde killed the big bad that was Varimathras and possibly prevented him from summoning Sargeras himself. On the other hand Alliance killed an Apothecary, while stumbling on the corpses of demons killed by the Horde on their way. Also, when did Sylvanas lose her city before that? Silvermoon? When she died before it fell?

    So is the peasant thing. Sylvanas wasn't beaten up by peasants. Some Forsaken forces were. Under Koltira. After Alliance made a surprise, truce-breaking attack.

    And the same goes to the last point. Sylvanas didn't become Horde's leader by default. And we've seen numerous changes to her character. Starting, you know, with the entire reason for her existence as an undead being fulfilled and her filling that void with something else.

    Also, how does being betrayed or losing constitute as bad writing to begin with? And glorious math right there. If Sylvanas died three times and was resurrected only twice she wouldn't be around anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  11. #131
    I can't tell if this is a troll thread or not. If you do the worgen starting zone, Genn Greymane loses everything to Sylvanas including his son. Even if she had only attacked Gilneas because Garrosh ordered her to, it would have been reason enough to hate her. But she is also doing it because she wants to. In the undead starting questline in Silverpine Forest, Sylvanas goes on and on about how she wants to protect Lordaeron for the Forsaken who call it home, and she sees Gilneas as a threat.

    On the Broken Shore, as far as Genn is concerned, Varian wouldn't have died if the Horde hadn't suddenly retreated in the middle of the battle in front of the Tomb of Sargeras. Since Sylvanas called the retreat, he holds her responsible for Varian's death.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    The guy is BATSHIT crazy. He has blamed the death of Varian and his son on Sylvanas. If you want to blame someone for his death, blame himself. Guy committed suicide. You can also blame Garrosh because if Sylvanas did not attempt to take silverpine, the Forsaken would've been labeled as traitors and killed off. This cheesehead deliberately saw Varian get killed by Gul'dan and says he wishes to avenge his death by killing Sylvanas. WHAT? He went against the direct orders of Anduin that the Horde is to NOT be engaged unless the situation requires it. [The sake of it was to not restart the faction-war.]. No, this guy says fuck you, takes a valuable piece of the Alliance military and engages her and ends up losing many soldiers, the ship and nearly his life -TWICE- in Stormheim.

    The guy is a complete shithead to Anduin. "A KING MUST BE ON HIS THRONE, NOT MOURNING!!", Do you realize where you are, Genn? In Stormwind. Your Kingdom is fucked over how can YOU of anyone tell another King how to rule? and Genn, you mourned the fuck outta your son and he deliberately killed himself. Then when Anduin arrives at his father's death-site he yells in his face like some guy caked up on crack-cocaine. "HOW COULD YOU JUST LEAVE!!".

    The guy has started wars for no reason, out for revenge for no reason, serving at the leader of the Alliance military for god-knows what reason. This guy is one crazy mothertrucker and needs to be put down. I don't care how they off him, questline, dungeon boss, raid boss, this character needs to f'ing go. I'm sick and tired of this guy ruining a cool race. He's a F-tier character and whoever wrote him thinking he was supposed to be the "cool guy" of the Alliance, epicly failed.
    He just needs a cone of shame for a while.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    Alliance was on one front and horde was on another (higher ground) in the broken shore cinematic.

    All Genn saw was sylvanas suddenly/unexpectedly ordering the retreat for the entire horde army - which left the alliance army completely exposed and surrounded.
    Genn did not see vol'jin dying or whatever else sylvanas saw because the horde were on the high ground while alliance was down in the valley.
    You can see the spaceships that warped in and fired their laser beams directly at the Horde's location from Alliance position despite it being positioned in lower ground. Horde retreating after something like this is neither sudden nor unexpected.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    Wrynn sacrificed himself so that the big airship could escape from the surrounding demons.
    Genn views that the demons would not be there at all to surround the alliance if sylvanas/horde did their job of holding their front line.
    But because sylvanas ordered the horde to retreat without prior warning to alliance, the humans found themselves swiftly surrounded.
    Varian sacrificed himself so that the airship could escape from the Fel Reaver summoned by Gul'dan. That wasn't even on Azeroth until after the Horde already left (and Alliance already started leaving) and was not something that was caused by Horde leaving. Also, the demons from the Horde position didn't surround the Alliance or weren't there at all to begin with, since they needed to run around half the island to reach the Alliance's position due to the high ground. The most they did was look menacingly from above in Alliance's direction. Finally, Sylvanas' job wasn't to hold any frontline. She was there to offer anti-air support to the Alliance, and effectively rob the Horde of one, because the Alliance was too stupid to bring their own ranged forces.


    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    That's kinda like calling incoming warnings in PvP. It's meaningless to call "inc" if the enemy has already overwhelmed you. You need to warn in advance and hold the line for a while to give your allies time to react.
    Yes, the Horde should have warned the Alliance in advance about being beating to a pulp by the spaceships that warped in from the Nether moments before. Holding the line that was shattered by space beams while more demons continued to pour in from the portals was also very feasible.


    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    You may try to handwave as you wish, but being realistic: if the Horde was so suddenly overwhelmed, I doubt any of them would survive. I mean, it requires a strong army to appear out of nowhere, and still the Horde would need to leave SOMEONE holding them back so the rest could retreat.

    It's like this:
    Moment 1: Armies are advancing fine, hold their positions.
    Moment 2: When Sylvanas notices, they are already overwhelmed and losing. Sylvanas blows the horn
    Moment 3: Horde has retreated already

    Anyone can notice that there's something amiss here. Something should've be shown happening between moments 1 and 2 and moments 2 and 3. Both are perfect timings for the Horde to warn the Alliance that they'd soon be without backup so the Alliance could retreat.

    By negleting to show moments 1.5 and/or 2.5, Blizzard creates false tension. Any army with any intelligence would either figure out they'd be overwhelmed before they are actually losing, or they'd have no time to retreat as they'd be crushed before they could do anything. You can't have both.

    That's why the discussion of the situation is a hot topic. We were given an unrealistic scenario to begin with.

    Notice that I'm complaining about the storytelling, I'm not using this as an excuse to blame any character.
    Given how this is what indeed has happened because a strong Legion force did appear out of nowhere (it's almost as if Legion's main mean of travel is portals or something), you're the one doing the handwaving. And they retreated with air support. Plus we know for a fact from the cinematic that Legion was at their heel the moment Sylvanas blew the horn. How would be the short period between blowing the horn and retreating be a perfect time to do anything with the Alliance that was in position inaccessible for Horde troops?


    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Given their positions at the time communication was not really possible except for things like horns. Not to mention the breaking of the horde had no immediate negative effects on the alliance. They weren't about to be overwhelmed from their flank, because a natural obstacle was in the way. Though pushing further became impossible, since the demons would flank them eventually. Heck the only reason the Alliance lost their high king was because Gul'dan unleashed another trap that had nothing to do with the horde being overwhelmed to begin with, the giant fel reaver, otherwise they would have retreated just fine.

    The horde lines were breaking the demons were overwhelming them after aerial bombardment it happened very fast, the survival of the horde seems to have been more luck than anything else to be honest.
    Just quoting and highlighting some parts for this posts importance and educational purposes. Maybe one day Alliance posters will get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  14. #134
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    *ahem*

    Baine.

    Genn is a hypocrite and a jerk, but he's not written worse than Baine. Baine has no character development in game, nearly none out of game, and his only interesting characteristic is he is Cairne's son. No really, go up to him and click him. That's what he says.

    At least with Genn you get some interesting surprises and action. Baine just follows orders. Even the crossover episode with Anduin guest starring didn't help him.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Graden View Post
    I wonder why the Forsaken didn't bother with the zone at all all this time, they could build another military harbor, or even rebuild and reinforce the wall, to push back another possible Alliance invasion to Silverpine through Gilneas.
    Because Blizzard's writers have attention span of a rock and the ability to manage multiple things (in this case, plots) at once of a retarded rock. The entire point to create a harbor was kinda fucked up as a plot to begin with. Because Blizzard's laziness knows no bounds, the lack of a Forsaken harbor in-game for a fleet that was already present in Wrath (which was in itself laziness on their part because copy-pasting zeppeling towers is faster) was somehow transplanted into lore. Anyway, lazy and moronic writing as it was, it was still the Horde's casus belli. So yeah, given how the Alliance ultimately withdrew from Gilneas (before the war ended at that), the fact that the Forsaken didn't conquer it (even though with no opposition remaining all it would have taken would be walking in and planting some flags) the only realistic explanation is that the writers forgot why the Horde invaded.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2017-05-09 at 08:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  16. #136
    Bloodsail Admiral LaserChild9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    The guy is BATSHIT crazy. He has blamed the death of Varian and his son on Sylvanas. If you want to blame someone for his death, blame himself. Guy committed suicide. You can also blame Garrosh because if Sylvanas did not attempt to take silverpine, the Forsaken would've been labeled as traitors and killed off. This cheesehead deliberately saw Varian get killed by Gul'dan and says he wishes to avenge his death by killing Sylvanas. WHAT? He went against the direct orders of Anduin that the Horde is to NOT be engaged unless the situation requires it. [The sake of it was to not restart the faction-war.]. No, this guy says fuck you, takes a valuable piece of the Alliance military and engages her and ends up losing many soldiers, the ship and nearly his life -TWICE- in Stormheim.
    I agree that Greymane is as nutty as a Snickers, but his vendetta against Sylvanas kind of makes sense. Yes, the arrow that killed his son was intended for Genn himself, but she still fired that arrow which still makes her responsible. Disregarding his sons death, at the point that he goes AWOL and attacks her in Stormheim he truly does think she was indirectly responsible for Varians death, correct me if I'm wrong but at this point the alliance is not aware that Sylvanas pulled her people out of the broken shore as Vol'jin had taken one for the team, so Genn just thinks that Sylvanas offered Varian cover fire and support then abandoned him and left him to die.

    Other than that, yeah, he's dick.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Where is their first harbor anyway? The forsaken have had a sizeable fleet since the pre-Wrath events (or possibly earlier, it would make sense if Sylvanas was scouting ahead in Northrend even before the Northrend campaign. Such a fleet requires a large harbor as well as a dry dock to built them at. And if they DO have such a dock, which they must, why did they need Gilneas anyway? Blizzard makes no sense as always.
    Their ships are technically dredged up from the bottom of the ocean. At least in most part. Via some kind of naval necromancy or whatever. Don't think too hard about it. But yeah, they still need some way to get people and supplies from and onto ships. I guess we're to think they walk on the bottom of the sea to get onto their ships, first Pirates of the Carribean movie style.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Given their positions at the time communication was not really possible except for things like horns.
    Magic? Tech?
    It's amazing how those little things disappear when you need them...

    Not to mention the breaking of the horde had no immediate negative effects on the alliance. They weren't about to be overwhelmed from their flank, because a natural obstacle was in the way. Though pushing further became impossible, since the demons would flank them eventually. Heck the only reason the Alliance lost their high king was because Gul'dan unleashed another trap that had nothing to do with the horde being overwhelmed to begin with, the giant fel reaver, otherwise they would have retreated just fine.
    That's not exact truth. The Alliance was in front of some of the most powerful demons known (Horde was beaten by unnamed generic demons, Alliance was facing an army of named mobs). If the demons can just teleport to the flank of the Horde, they could do the same to the Alliance at any moment and crush them. Also, the demons on the slope could rain fel fire from above over the entire fighting force.

    What allowed Alliance to escape was the fact that they had called the warship before the Horde retreat, so they didn't have to retreat by foot.

    (And again, how the Alliance army climbed up to the ship is everyone's guess. The cinematic neglects a lot of info, so I'll just assume mages and Jaina teleported most of the soldiers, since there's no way in hell the Legion just stood there staring as an entire combat force climbed ropes.

    I agree we saw too little, like the horde properly retreating etc. though I would say it wasn't really necessary and it was obvious blizz wanted to create tensions with this cinematic.
    The cinematic was great on first view, and it has a lot of good moments (specially Varian scenes), but we can't deny the narrative flaws. And those flaws are the reason we can't agree with anything in a discussion, because each person fills the missing gaps with whatever explanation feels better.

    It is intentional, blizz didn't want a cut clear scenario
    Probably their intention, yes. But admiting that means this discussion is pointless.
    Last edited by DeicideUH; 2017-05-09 at 08:30 PM.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post

    Probably their intention, yes. But admiting that means this discussion is pointless.
    For the most part yes, but considering the entire geographical situation, the horde breaking was bad, but not immediately.

  20. #140
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Lost his city twice: check. Sylvanas forced the Worgen out of Gilneas at the end of Worgen starting experience. Then, after being recaptured by the 7th Legion, it was ultimately lost again, with Worgen abandoning Gilneas as a whole for good.
    Genn lost Gilneas once. The second time Gilneas was lost was because... well, frankly, because Blizzard ran out of ideas.

    Runs face-first into his age-old enemy only to get his ass whooped: check. Unless you think almost dying to Sylvanas' poison when she didn't even take him seriously is something else than getting his ass kicked.
    ...He utterly ruined Sylvanas' designs in Stormheim and exposed her treachery to the val'kyr.

    Meanwhile Sylvanas ran headfirst into Arthas and got her ass whomped because reasons.

    Requires a magical deus-ex machina army to accomplish anything: check. Gilneas population was already ravaged by the civil war and Worgen outbreak before the Greymane Wall even fell. After they left Gilneas they escaped to Darnassus. A district of it. Worgen shouldn't have the population to match the Forsaken on their own, yet they do.
    Gilneas in Lore is an entire kingdom of people. And the worgen curse by and large didn't kill people, it turned them... shocker... into worgen. Which they learned to control.

    That Blizzard had no plans for them beyond "stick them in a tree in darnassus" isn't a statement of the worgen's population, seeing as they're regular soldiers of the alliance now, it's a statement of Blizzard's poor execution of Cataclysm.

    Subverted and killed by a guy right under his nose: partial check. Gets betrayed by Godfrey, almost died in the process.
    Well you know who Godfrey worked under and DID kill?

    Sylvanas.

    Required the opposing faction to help him take it back a second time is horseshit since the Horde neither needed Alliance's help to reclaim Undercity.
    Sure they didn't.

    Horde killed the big bad that was Varimathras and possibly prevented him from summoning Sargeras himself.
    Oh yeah, that OTHER guy also working right under Sylvanas' nose!

    On the other hand Alliance killed an Apothecary, while stumbling on the corpses of demons killed by the Horde on their way.
    An apothecary? The apothecary who designed the new plague.

    Also another guy working right under sylvanas' nose. Gee she sure does have poor judgement.

    Also, when did Sylvanas lose her city before that? Silvermoon? When she died before it fell?
    She failed to protect Silvermoon, yes. Seeing as that was her job... she lost it.

    So is the peasant thing. Sylvanas wasn't beaten up by peasants. Some Forsaken forces were. Under Koltira. After Alliance made a surprise, truce-breaking attack.
    Oh I very much remember being a level... what, 9 worgen and beating up Sylvanas?

    She got wrecked by peasants. Deal with it.

    And the same goes to the last point. Sylvanas didn't become Horde's leader by default. And we've seen numerous changes to her character. Starting, you know, with the entire reason for her existence as an undead being fulfilled and her filling that void with something else.
    Which is... continuing to lead the forsaken?


    Also, how does being betrayed or losing constitute as bad writing to begin with? And glorious math right there. If Sylvanas died three times and was resurrected only twice she wouldn't be around anymore.
    I said "was magically resurrected" as in "glorious and frilly" type magic, i.e, when she was brought back to life by the val'kyr... twice. Because Blizzard needed to show how DARK and BROODING she was.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

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