All-New Wolverine

[Stormcall]

She can be her own person and still wear the mantle of Wolverine. Logan would want her to do whatever she feels is right for herself.

Instead of having her own identity, she literally took Logan's. That's not being her own person. And it's not what Wolverine would want for her, which means taking that identity is something she wouldn't have remotely wanted for herself to begin with, cause she KNOWS he wants her to establish her own identity, and rather than taking his. She would consider taking his name as DISHONORING his memory.

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Ironheart... is that for real? So stupid sounding.

It's obviously based on the phrase "heart of iron", which has literally been used for centuries to refer to courage and bravery...it's actually a pretty reasonable superhero name, regardless of your opinions of the character.

[Mormolyce]

Only the Y was damaged to the point it was unusable....so the Dr. just duplicated Wolverine's X Chromosone and used both to create X-23. So, genetically she's more like a female twin than an actual clone.

Mmm, I see in that case she has all of Wolverine's X chromosomes (including the sex X) but not the Y, so yeah like a female twin.

[Jotaux]

It's weird how people get mad about Riri getting a suit of armour and claim she's replaced Iron Man despite her having a different name, but Dr. Doom calling himself Iron Man gets a free pass. I wonder what the difference is.

Press. Riri is rammed down your throat while only a handful of people are even aware Doom is calling himself Iron Man. I only know because of the marvel thread on these forums and have not heard anything else about it elsewhere.

[Dhrizzle]

Press. Riri is rammed down your throat while only a handful of people are even aware Doom is calling himself Iron Man. I only know because of the marvel thread on these forums and have not heard anything else about it elsewhere.

Ah, so it's people who don't actually read comics but like to go looking for things to get outraged about?

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Mmm, I see in that case she has all of Wolverine's X chromosomes (including the sex X) but not the Y, so yeah like a female twin.

In Marvel terms that's a clone, Ben Reilly and Kaine Parker are considered Peter Parker's clones despite some differences, and Ultimate Jessica Drew is one of Ultimate Spider-man's clones despite being female. Plus X-23 considers herself a clone and worries if it means she has no soul.

[Orby]

X-23 as the All NEw Wolverine is probably the best of the new Marvel comics right now. I have always been a huge X-23 fan and basically follow every comic she has been in since she debuted.

If you get a good writers than can do her justice it works really well and the All New Wolverine is brilliant, I don't look at her like she is the new Wolverine, but she will always be X-23 to me and she is still pretty well written. As long as Bendis doesn't write her

I still wished they hadn't killed off Earth 616 Logan, not a huge fan of the Old Man Logan outside his normal universe. Fuck Secret Wars messed so much up

[Jetstream]

If I was cloned, I sure as hell wouldn't think it's my kid. That's just... weird. Also, I don't think Wolverine did any sort of parenting.

You're right. It'd be more accurate to call X-23 his twin sister.

[Faroth]

The only thing I don't get about X-23 is why, for as long as she was around with the X-Men prior to Logan's death, they never had her join him in the solo title for globe hopping, ninja fighting, adventures. If Jubilee can be his sidekick for years in the solo book, it's mind boggling they didn't have more father/daughter bonding between the two, particularly with how paternal he came to view her through the years.

One of my favorite scenes towards the end of the X-Men comics' proper life (leading up to Avengers vs X-Men) was when Wolverine walked into Cyclops office, walked straight up to him, and just punched him in the jaw without a word. All because Logan was pissed Scott would put X23 on X-Force, an assassination squad, and basically use her the same way Weapon X program designed her to be used.

As for Laura as the All New Wolverine, I really don't like her in Logan's uniform. She's got a new one coming soon that looks a lot better to me, though. I like her having her own look.

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I still wished they hadn't killed off Earth 616 Logan, not a huge fan of the Old Man Logan outside his normal universe. Fuck Secret Wars messed so much up

Same here. Old Man Logan's weird and crazy future was fun to trapse around in. Bringing him to the main timeline/present doesn't work the same to me.

There's a lot of rumor and speculation that 616 Logan is being brought back this summer, though. Now if they can bring back Cyclops as not an asshole, Jean, and maybe Xavier and get the X-Men on track instead of putting them aside.

I'm still pissed at their character assassination of Cyclops and he was never even a favorite of mine. And no, the young time displaced versions that make no damn sense whatsoever don't count for me.

[Jotaux]

Ah, so it's people who don't actually read comics but like to go looking for things to get outraged about?

I read tons of comics and I've barely seen anything on Doom being Ironman. I did read one of the Doom Ironman comics but found it wasn't for me.

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I still wished they hadn't killed off Earth 616 Logan, not a huge fan of the Old Man Logan outside his normal universe. Fuck Secret Wars messed so much up

I'm not sure how to react to old man Logan. He just isn't the Wolverine I know and I much prefer X-23 in the role.

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I'm still pissed at their character assassination of Cyclops and he was never even a favorite of mine. And no, the young time displaced versions that make no damn sense whatsoever don't count for me.

I can't stand the time displaced X-men stuff.

[A dot Ham]

So went to free comic book day this week and while in the store I picked up a couple of comics outside of the free ones. I wanted a graphic novel but didn't want to spend the cash for one. I picked up "All-New wolverine" issue 019 cause it was on the shelf with the new comic books.

So I like Weapon 23 but not sure how I feel about her taking Wolverine's name. Kind of wish she would've come up with her own. I like the story line in the book and may go back and read the previous issues. I still don't like the idea of a female iron man. I still believe that if they want female or minority heroes they should make new characters. But that's another conversation for another time.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...mic-book-sales
There is a conversation about it there, if you prefer to talk about it there and keep this discussion focused on Wolverine.

I feel like creativity has been tapped.

Just look at the movie industry. Remake of "XXXX" adaption of "XXXXXX". Nobody comes up with original content anymore.

Well that isn't actually true. I believe the industries are stifling creativity. There are original stories out there. But everyone is so unwilling to take a risk.

Perhaps I don't understand the industry as well as corporate executives, but I know for a fact that niche markets exist. Not every release has to be a blockbuster, or New York Times Bestseller. The public, the consumers are clamoring for content, and the rate at which they consume it is quite frankly alarming.

It is possible that they are simply controlling the market, by controlling supply. But my gut tells me that's not true, especially when you look at business decisions of the companies. Movie companies/studios take on a movie for 2 reasons, (1) blockbuster money maker (2) to take a "loss".

Video game industry leaders like Blizzard-Activision are ONLY interested in Blockbuster titles. They have no desire to be a niche market. They want quick returns, big returns, returns that boost stock prices.

The question that comes up is not will (x) product be profitable. The question becomes how MUCH profit will (x) product make.

[dextersmith]

It bothers me that her claws are between her knuckles and on her feet.

[Faroth]

I can't stand the time displaced X-men stuff.

They make no sense. The fact that Warren has energy wings should erase current Warren from existence because the history has been altered. They even did the "Young Scott dies, current Scott will fade away" aspect.

Hell, all of the current timeline shouldn't exist because the past has now been changed.

Comic book time travel logic works with the multi-verse idea when you've got someone coming back from the future. But altering the past and everything being the same pretty much breaks that already shakey logic.

I also find it kind of weird to have young Warren involved with Laura since that Warren is an adult she's been around and on the same team with. It's kind of creepy.

[dextersmith]

So went to free comic book day this week and while in the store I picked up a couple of comics outside of the free ones. I wanted a graphic novel but didn't want to spend the cash for one. I picked up "All-New wolverine" issue 019 cause it was on the shelf with the new comic books.

So I like Weapon 23 but not sure how I feel about her taking Wolverine's name. Kind of wish she would've come up with her own. I like the story line in the book and may go back and read the previous issues. I still don't like the idea of a female iron man. I still believe that if they want female or minority heroes they should make new characters. But that's another conversation for another time.

The replacements have an air of Marvel kids or Chibi heroes to them. Thumbs down.

[Dhrizzle]

The only thing I don't get about X-23 is why, for as long as she was around with the X-Men prior to Logan's death, they never had her join him in the solo title for globe hopping, ninja fighting, adventures. If Jubilee can be his sidekick for years in the solo book, it's mind boggling they didn't have more father/daughter bonding between the two, particularly with how paternal he came to view her through the years.

There was quite a bit of interaction with Logan and Laura (and Daken) at some point though I can't remember exactly when, it's around the time there was also a Hulk family (Hulk, Red Hulk, SHulk, Red Shulk, Savage SHulk, Skaar and A-bomb.)

One of my favorite scenes towards the end of the X-Men comics' proper life (leading up to Avengers vs X-Men) was when Wolverine walked into Cyclops office, walked straight up to him, and just punched him in the jaw without a word. All because Logan was pissed Scott would put X23 on X-Force, an assassination squad, and basically use her the same way Weapon X program designed her to be used.

Which is weird because Laura did end up on X-Force under Logan's leadership, and at some point he apologises for using her like a weapon but thought it would help deal with the "need to kill" that they share.

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I read tons of comics and I've barely seen anything on Doom being Ironman. I did read one of the Doom Ironman comics but found it wasn't for me.

I'd probably never have heard about Riri being Ironheart if it wasn't for the outrage it caused.

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It bothers me that her claws are between her knuckles and on her feet.

I like that the Wolverine family all get 3 claws but in different places. Daken has 2 between his knuckles like Laura but the third comes from his wrist, around the same place that bio-web-spinners or Kaine's claws come from.

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They make no sense. The fact that Warren has energy wings should erase current Warren from existence because the history has been altered. They even did the "Young Scott dies, current Scott will fade away" aspect.

Hell, all of the current timeline shouldn't exist because the past has now been changed.

Comic book time travel logic works with the multi-verse idea when you've got someone coming back from the future. But altering the past and everything being the same pretty much breaks that already shakey logic.

I also find it kind of weird to have young Warren involved with Laura since that Warren is an adult she's been around and on the same team with. It's kind of creepy.

To paraphrase Deadpool, the X-men have been using time as their personal bitch for a long time now. I'm pretty sure Rachel Gray and Nathan Summers are from different time-lines, as is Bishop, and those are different to the Age of Apocalypse, Age of Ultron, 2099 and the futures Thor had to undo after he royally fucked things up (during Ragnarok and somewhere around the God of Thunder run that showed him enchanting Jarnbjorn.)

Odds on when Beast grabbed them he created a different reality, either one where the original X-Men disappeared or one where they suddenly learned a load of new stuff,

[Jotaux]

I'd probably never have heard about Riri being Ironheart if it wasn't for the outrage it caused.

She was in Civil War II and Secret Empire, Marvel's last big even and its current one, it would be pretty hard to miss for someone who reads marvel comics.

[Dhrizzle]

She was in Civil War II and Secret Empire, Marvel's last big even and its current one, it would be pretty hard to miss for someone who reads marvel comics.

I'm reading through Marvel Unlimited because fuck paying that sort of money to have a story drip-fed through weekly installments. Read an awful lot of Thor, Wolverine-family and Hulk-family stuff, all of Original Sin and Fear Itself, some other random stuff and over the past few months I've read everything from the start of the Marvel-NOW! revamp (actually a bit before because I read from the start of the Agent Venom and Scarlet Spider runs, both excellent though I expect nerd-rage due to them being new people taking on old names and cribbing off Spider-man's style) and I'm just coming up on Secret Wars.

[Altrec]

Marvel tends to tout a brand new race/gender/sexuality for an already established character/mantle every week so I can understand why people don't like it since it seems like little thought is put into it other than making money.

That being said, All-New Wolverine actually does put thought into it and its more of taking up the mantle much like how Dick Grayson took up the mantle of the Batman. The writer, Tom Taylor, is fantastic and really does the series justice. All-New Wolverine is one of the few good Marvel titles out right now, so don't let her taking up the mantle in honor of her clone/father get to you and just enjoy the story itself.

I don't really agree. Its one thing for either to take over the mantle briefly(for various plot driven reasons), but both were established characters in their own right and it seems almost disrespectful to them to simply shove them in the shoes of someone else. That is particularly the case for Dick.

[Faroth]

There was quite a bit of interaction with Logan and Laura (and Daken) at some point though I can't remember exactly when, it's around the time there was also a Hulk family (Hulk, Red Hulk, SHulk, Red Shulk, Savage SHulk, Skaar and A-bomb.)

Yeah, I know they had a good bit and I think the Laura/Daken/Logan story was a single arc, but Jubilee was jet setting with Wolvie for years, so I still find it odd how little Laura and Logan traveled in his solo book as just a duo.

Which is weird because Laura did end up on X-Force under Logan's leadership, and at some point he apologises for using her like a weapon but thought it would help deal with the "need to kill" that they share.

Same book, or lead in anyway. Logan didn't like it, he punched Scott, but the team was still set. I think Laura may have asked to be on the team and Scott allowed it rather than him really assigning her. From then on, Logan led the strike force, but they brought up he didn't particularly like Laura being part of it from time to time.

To paraphrase Deadpool, the X-men have been using time as their personal bitch for a long time now. I'm pretty sure Rachel Gray and Nathan Summers are from different time-lines, as is Bishop, and those are different to the Age of Apocalypse, Age of Ultron, 2099 and the futures Thor had to undo after he royally fucked things up (during Ragnarok and somewhere around the God of Thunder run that showed him enchanting Jarnbjorn.)

Odds on when Beast grabbed them he created a different reality, either one where the original X-Men disappeared or one where they suddenly learned a load of new stuff,

Rachel is from one future
Bishop is from another
Nathan is from modern times, but taken to a possible future.

All the alternate future timeline stuff works when they're from the future. It's usually "go into the past in order to change the future I live in, even if it means erasing it from happening."

Beast going into the past and altering the timeline would therefore alter the timeline he lives in. Meaning it should have ceased to exist. Biggest example with them dragging it on and on is no changes having occurred to Cyclops, Jean, and most glaringly Warren as a result of their younger selves occurring.

Even if the energy wings were temporary, that alters the timeline of the Warren who never had them. He should cease to exist already. Their timeline should be unraveling because of altering their past, which is the standard REASON for futuristic time travelers coming back in time to begin with.


My biggest gripe, though, is Cyclops going full "ends justify any means" anti-hero and becoming the new Magneto. That made no f'ing sense whatsoever. Havok, always more short fuse and prone to more extreme reactions, could have become the new Magneto with Scott carrying on Xavier's dream, passing the torch of Xavier/Magneto friendship & rivalry to the two brothers with opposed views.

But then, I feel like the X-Men flew off the rails and had their personalities screwed up, along with a lot of their stories as a whole, ever since Grant Morrison took over. Some think he was the greatest writer since Claremont. I think he screwed up the X-Men beyond recognition that they've never truly recovered from.

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(actually a bit before because I read from the start of the Agent Venom and Scarlet Spider runs, both excellent though I expect nerd-rage due to them being new people taking on old names and cribbing off Spider-man's style)

I do feel there's way too many spider-people now too.

Peter, Miles, Kaine, Ben (returning it seems), Sylk, Spider-Gwen.

Though I'm not sure Gwen is main continuity. Of all these, I'd opt to axe Sylk and Kaine, but I always thought Ben should have been given a book in another city rather than killing him off back in the 90s. I've heard Kaine's Scarlet run was really good, though.

[Dhrizzle]

Rachel is from one future
Bishop is from another
Nathan is from modern times, but taken to a possible future.

All the alternate future timeline stuff works when they're from the future. It's usually "go into the past in order to change the future I live in, even if it means erasing it from happening."

Beast going into the past and altering the timeline would therefore alter the timeline he lives in. Meaning it should have ceased to exist. Biggest example with them dragging it on and on is no changes having occurred to Cyclops, Jean, and most glaringly Warren as a result of their younger selves occurring.

Even if the energy wings were temporary, that alters the timeline of the Warren who never had them. He should cease to exist already. Their timeline should be unraveling because of altering their past, which is the standard REASON for futuristic time travelers coming back in time to begin with.

Following the vaguely established rules, wouldn't the timeline only change once the altered original X-Men were put back where they came from? And would it still count if the whole universe had already been destroyed and reconstructed? Finally, wouldn't the shenanigans just create a new universe to run parallel with the 616?

BTW, why is Rachel usually so boring? In pretty much everything I've been reading (2014-16) she's just kind of there as a spare psychic. Even in the relatively small adjectiveless X-Men team she barely makes an impression.

My biggest gripe, though, is Cyclops going full "ends justify any means" anti-hero and becoming the new Magneto. That made no f'ing sense whatsoever. Havok, always more short fuse and prone to more extreme reactions, could have become the new Magneto with Scott carrying on Xavier's dream, passing the torch of Xavier/Magneto friendship & rivalry to the two brothers with opposed views.

Well it was a nervous breakdown brought about by murdering Xavier whilst under the effects of the Phoenix, if Scott's actions didn't make sense it's because he wasn't in his right mind. I think it worked well having him play "Magneto" to Wolverine's "Xavier" because of the way it tore at the loyalties of the other X-people, I doubt Havoc would have had the same effect on Beast, Storm, Kitty and other a-list mutants.

But then, I feel like the X-Men flew off the rails and had their personalities screwed up, along with a lot of their stories as a whole, ever since Grant Morrison took over. Some think he was the greatest writer since Claremont. I think he screwed up the X-Men beyond recognition that they've never truly recovered from.

I think the problem is, despite rumours Marvel are trying to end mutants in then comics, there are too damn many X-Men and spin-off books. Adjectiveless, Amazing, All-New, Uncanny Avengers, X-Factor, New Mutants and solo runs for Wolverine, Storm, Magneto, Cyclops... then for fun lets put Kitty in space to tie in with the GotG and Star Lord books...

I do feel there's way too many spider-people now too.
:-)
Peter, Miles, Kaine, Ben (returning it seems), Sylk, Spider-Gwen.

Though I'm not sure Gwen is main continuity. Of all these, I'd opt to axe Sylk and Kaine, but I always thought Ben should have been given a book in another city rather than killing him off back in the 90s. I've heard Kaine's Scarlet run was really good, though.

Scarlet Spider was really good, and as a bonus for you it's in Houston. The Flash Thompson/Venom run that came at a similar time was also good and set in Philadelphia.

I don't think we need Ben Reilly back, it was nice seeing him be a full blown Spidey in Spiderverse but in 616 Bens should stay dead to inspire Spider persons with the surname Parker.

You're right about Gwen, she had a one-shot to introduce her for Spiderverse and it drew enough fans for her to have a full run in an alternate universe. I also agree that Silk is unnecessary, I get why she was important as a plot device but there isn't much about her that isn't being covered by the other Spider-folk. I'd rather have kept Spider-girl and let Sylk go off with Spider-UK.

[Calfredd]

.... Do you even know how cloning works?

This is why I'm not a comedian; people confusing my jokes with serious statements.

[Ilikegreenfire]

Following the vaguely established rules, wouldn't the timeline only change once the altered original X-Men were put back where they came from? And would it still count if the whole universe had already been destroyed and reconstructed? Finally, wouldn't the shenanigans just create a new universe to run parallel with the 616?

BTW, why is Rachel usually so boring? In pretty much everything I've been reading (2014-16) she's just kind of there as a spare psychic. Even in the relatively small adjectiveless X-Men team she barely makes an impression.



Well it was a nervous breakdown brought about by murdering Xavier whilst under the effects of the Phoenix, if Scott's actions didn't make sense it's because he wasn't in his right mind. I think it worked well having him play "Magneto" to Wolverine's "Xavier" because of the way it tore at the loyalties of the other X-people, I doubt Havoc would have had the same effect on Beast, Storm, Kitty and other a-list mutants.



I think the problem is, despite rumours Marvel are trying to end mutants in then comics, there are too damn many X-Men and spin-off books. Adjectiveless, Amazing, All-New, Uncanny Avengers, X-Factor, New Mutants and solo runs for Wolverine, Storm, Magneto, Cyclops... then for fun lets put Kitty in space to tie in with the GotG and Star Lord books...



Scarlet Spider was really good, and as a bonus for you it's in Houston. The Flash Thompson/Venom run that came at a similar time was also good and set in Philadelphia.

I don't think we need Ben Reilly back, it was nice seeing him be a full blown Spidey in Spiderverse but in 616 Bens should stay dead to inspire Spider persons with the surname Parker.

You're right about Gwen, she had a one-shot to introduce her for Spiderverse and it drew enough fans for her to have a full run in an alternate universe. I also agree that Silk is unnecessary, I get why she was important as a plot device but there isn't much about her that isn't being covered by the other Spider-folk. I'd rather have kept Spider-girl and let Sylk go off with Spider-UK.

Wtb a Seattle or any other Wa state hero we even have the most polluted nuclear site in the us and no big super hero, that I know of anyway.