Thread: Is Odyn evil?

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  1. #41
    Odyn is not evil. He just does shitty things for the greater good. His ultimate goal is to protect Azeroth from the Old Gods and the Legion. He is willing to kill and enslave people to reach that goal if needed.

  2. #42
    No, but he is morally questionable.

    All of his actions were on behalf of Azeroth. The creation of Valkyr (albeit unintentionally) allowed us to return from the dead, and also gave him an immortal army, as well as partial dominion over the Shadowlands. He fought against Helya, who while she was justified in her anger wasn't justified in her means, capturing and torturing countless souls of both vrykul and otherwise. This went on for quite a while, the ends absolutely don't justify the means.

    He's supposed to be an ugly yet impressive example of the rigid order that the Titans enforce, and why it is flawed. If he tries to do something, he lets nothing stand in his way from accomplishing it if he believes it has noble goals, even resorting to scummy acts. He'll murder a family, mind control (possibly?) his subjects, and sacrifice his companions if that's what order demands, and do so without hesitation. His intentions are good but things like feelings and life aren't even a consideration in his equation.

    Now, granted...even without the old god whispers, it's obvious to anyone that there's heavy foreshadowing to him falling to corruption, but I don't think it's happening yet. He's acting in the way a Titan Watcher would.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    Blame Helya and Loken for that. They sealed the Halls of Valor before any of the conflicts in which the Valarjar could have helped out.
    Odyn created the monstrous helya, so that he was ultimately screwed over was a problem of his own making, none of that would have happened if he hadn't had his lich king moment of enbslaving the opposing Vrykul.

  4. #44
    Elemental Lord
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    Evil, no. Done bad things thinking they were the right thing to do, yes

  5. #45
    Evil - not sure about that. He is an insane sociopathic hypocrite bent on "valor". Was Hannibal Lecter from Silence of the lambs evil? I do not think so. He just did not get the "wrong" part about eating humans. Similar is with Odyn. Only to add to Lecter's sociopathy, there is Odyn's hypocricy and mental development of a 5 year old mind with demigod like powers combined. Simply put, if presented with a choice, I would rather kill Odyn than Helya in the trial. The latter was at least sane. Likely, she would have been a much better ally in any case, if she was to be persuaded to help with the Legion.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaaz View Post
    Likely, she would have been a much better ally in any case, if she was to be persuaded to help with the Legion.
    You really would want to ally with a character who already tried to rig her own trials to keep our souls inside Helheim, then later stroke a bargain with the Legion's representative (Gul'dan) to help them with certain task? That's an interesting decision there.
    Last edited by Qualia; 2017-05-09 at 09:09 PM.
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  7. #47
    Banned A dot Ham's Avatar
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    But Havi's accent...

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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    You really would want to ally with a character who already tried to rig her own trials to keep our souls inside Helheim, then later stroke a bargain with the Legion's representative (Gul'dan) to help them with certain task?
    I would rather deal with someone sane, than a totally random whackjob. Likely, if we were siding with Helya in the first place, instead of assisting Odyn, she would not need to conspire with Legion. Enemy of my enemy and all that.

  9. #49
    Lol all this Odyn hate is really weird...he's just a typical warrior-god: exceedingly arrogant, powerful, and demanding. Reminds me of Greek Gods

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Velvet View Post
    Why do warriors follow him again?
    Give me a chance, and I will remove his head from his shoulders !

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaaz View Post
    I would rather deal with someone sane, than a totally random whackjob. Likely, if we were siding with Helya in the first place, instead of assisting Odyn, she would not need to conspire with Legion. Enemy of my enemy and all that.
    I'm not sure about that. I wouldn't trust anyone that would ally with the Legion willingly for his / her own personal gains only - we weren't even the one who stroke first. I'd prefer a "totally random whackjob" (which Odyn actually isn't) that is powerful and always on Azeroth side than someone who would easily betray the world for her own selfish vengeance. Not to mention that we weren't on Odyn's side when she tried to rig her challenge to imprison us in Helheim, a realm of torment. That was a big minus for her - at least Odyn helped us with his.
    Last edited by Qualia; 2017-05-09 at 09:29 PM.
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang
    Donnons le sang de guillotine
    Pour guerir la secheresse de la guillotine
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    I'm not sure about that. I wouldn't trust anyone that would ally with the Legion willingly for his / her own personal gains only - we weren't even the one who stroke first. I'd prefer a "totally random whackjob" (which Odyn actually isn't) that is powerful and always on Azeroth side than someone who would easily betray the world for her own selfish vengeance. Not to mention that we weren't on Odyn's side when she tried to rig her challenge to imprison us in Helheim, a realm of torment. That was a big minus for her - at least Odyn helped us with his.
    Powerful - basically imprisoned by Helya and requires us to do his dirty work. I would say that Helya is at least on par. Likely more powerful.
    Random - it was he who basically created Helya in the first place. By killing her, turning into a vrykil and then trying make her a slave to his will. Helya's actions have logic. siding with legion can be considered an act of vengeance and / or desperation. Odyn is pure RNG. Even his "valor" standards are a whack, since he is clearly not above assasinations (and making us do them through trickery) of his rivals.
    Selfish - Odyn is a very definition of selfishness and disregard of others. The very definition of sociopathy. Or which part of killing his own daughter and making an undead slave out of her for personal power gain did I miss?
    If tomorrow he would think that it would be glorious to let Legion into Azeroth for a grand battle to the death, it would not be totally unexpected and well within a character.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaaz View Post
    I would rather deal with someone sane, than a totally random whackjob. Likely, if we were siding with Helya in the first place, instead of assisting Odyn, she would not need to conspire with Legion. Enemy of my enemy and all that.
    Not sure about Horde, but as Alliance, Helya never gives you the option of siding with her in the first place. First interaction you ever have with her is getting imprisoned in Helheim, then her trying to wriggle out of a deal to release you.

    So if i have to decide between two whackjobs, i'm going with the one that's already on roughly the same side as me to begin with, rather than the one that tried to pull a fast one.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaaz View Post
    Powerful - basically imprisoned by Helya and requires us to do his dirty work. I would say that Helya is at least on par. Likely more powerful.
    Random - it was he who basically created Helya in the first place. By killing her, turning into a vrykil and then trying make her a slave to his will. Helya's actions have logic. siding with legion can be considered an act of vengeance and / or desperation. Odyn is pure RNG. Even his "valor" standards are a whack, since he is clearly not above assasinations (and making us do them through trickery) of his rivals.
    Selfish - Odyn is a very definition of selfishness and disregard of others. The very definition of sociopathy. Or which part of killing his own daughter and making an undead slave out of her for personal power gain did I miss?
    If tomorrow he would think that it would be glorious to let Legion into Azeroth for a grand battle to the death, it would not be totally unexpected and well within a character.
    The legion is already invading. No reason to wait til tomorrow. What Odyn thinks about the Legion invasion doesn't change the fact there is a legion invasion. Odyn being hyped on Valor to fight them is a good thing. He is helping us fight the Legion. Helya was not.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaaz View Post
    Or which part of killing his own daughter and making an undead slave out of her for personal power gain did I miss?
    Definitely the part where it had nothing to do with personal power gain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaaz View Post
    If tomorrow he would think that it would be glorious to let Legion into Azeroth for a grand battle to the death, it would not be totally unexpected and well within a character.
    People keep suggesting that Odyn will do this (or free N'Zoth so we can fight him for glory), but there is literally no indication that Odyn would endanger Azeroth - which he was literally created to protect - purely for the sake of his own amusement. The dude has certainly made some bad decisions, but everything he's done has always been in the name of keeping Azeroth safe.
    Last edited by DarkTZeratul; 2017-05-09 at 10:27 PM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    Definitely the part where it had nothing to do with personal power gain.

    People keep suggesting that Odyn will do this (or free N'Zoth so we can fight him for glory), but there is literally no indication that Odyn would endanger Azeroth - which he was literally created to protect - purely for the sake of his own amusement. The dude has certainly made some bad decisions, but everything he's done has always been in the name of keeping Azeroth safe.
    So he murdered his daughter and made her undead for amusement purposes? Ok, that totally makes it better.
    As for endangering Azeroth, Loken was also a watcher made for exactly the same purpose - to keep old gods at bay and to protect Azeroth. We all know how that turned out.
    If someone murders your family, then tries to murder you too when you've done them no wrong...yeah, Odyn is insane and evil.
    Sigryn can sign on that.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaaz View Post
    So he murdered his daughter and made her undead for amusement purposes? Ok, that totally makes it better.
    Way to totally and completely misread what I said. He did what he did to Helya because he believed the best way to protect Azeroth was with an army of empowered vrykul brought back from the dead, and the only way to do that was to create the val'kyr to get their souls from the Shadowlands. It had nothing to do with amassing power or amusement. And he only did it to Helya because no one else volunteered.

    As for endangering Azeroth, Loken was also a watcher made for exactly the same purpose - to keep old gods at bay and to protect Azeroth. We all know how that turned out.
    Better kill all the titans' creations then, just to be on the safe side. Sargeras would be proud. Of course, by the same token, Odyn turned Helya into a val'kyr and created the Valarjar because he didn't think the Dragon Aspects were up to the task. And we all know how THEY turned out.

    Sigryn can sign on that.
    Because it's evidently unreasonable to expect that the fel-corrupted family of the Legion's vrykul champion could possibly be a threat.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    Way to totally and completely misread what I said. He did what he did to Helya because he believed the best way to protect Azeroth was with an army of empowered vrykul brought back from the dead, and the only way to do that was to create the val'kyr to get their souls from the Shadowlands. It had nothing to do with amassing power or amusement. And he only did it to Helya because no one else volunteered.

    Better kill all the titans' creations then, just to be on the safe side. Sargeras would be proud. Of course, by the same token, Odyn turned Helya into a val'kyr and created the Valarjar because he didn't think the Dragon Aspects were up to the task. And we all know how THEY turned out.

    Because it's evidently unreasonable to expect that the fel-corrupted family of the Legion's vrykul champion could possibly be a threat.
    Lich King also thought that the best way to protect something or another was to create an army of undead. See any similarities there?
    It also is perfectly reasonable to expect him to kill all humans. After all, as far as Odyn is concerned, there is a church of old gods on Stormwind.
    It also is perfectly reasonable for him to try and kill all blood and night elves. Demon hunters are the very definition of fel corruption, tatoos or not. Same goes for orcs and draenei. Velen is Archimonde's brother after all.
    I am sure that with Odyn's idea of Collective Punishment you can find a myriad of reasons to annihilate every single living being on Azeroth with and exeption of plant life and single cell organisms (murlocks are definitely doomed). And even in those cases, I would not be willing to bet on their survival.
    That is way too bat shit crazy for me. Helya can be reasoned with. At least Sylvana negotiated with her. Odyn is like an autistic kid that stabbed his own mother (no offence intended). Only instead of a knife he has an army of 100% obidient robots. You do not make agreements or contracts with these characters - you make precautions.
    Last edited by Gaaz; 2017-05-09 at 11:33 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaaz View Post
    Powerful - basically imprisoned by Helya and requires us to do his dirty work. I would say that Helya is at least on par. Likely more powerful.
    Random - it was he who basically created Helya in the first place. By killing her, turning into a vrykil and then trying make her a slave to his will. Helya's actions have logic. siding with legion can be considered an act of vengeance and / or desperation. Odyn is pure RNG. Even his "valor" standards are a whack, since he is clearly not above assasinations (and making us do them through trickery) of his rivals.
    Selfish - Odyn is a very definition of selfishness and disregard of others. The very definition of sociopathy. Or which part of killing his own daughter and making an undead slave out of her for personal power gain did I miss?
    If tomorrow he would think that it would be glorious to let Legion into Azeroth for a grand battle to the death, it would not be totally unexpected and well within a character.
    Firstly, Helya almost lose to a single Valarjar (Ingvar) just because he was wielding weapons empowered by Odyn. She is no way nearly as powerful as Odyn himself. At best, we can only say that she is better than Odyn in a specific magic - the one she and Ra researched from Sargeras' spell to imprison demons - that she used to imprison Odyn (and created the Elemental Plane before that). Alas, it wouldn't work well against the Legion, with Sargeras being their leader or the fact that the demons could just suicide and come back when they are trapped. We need raw power here which Odyn has a lot more than Helya did.

    There isn't anything random with Odyn's action. It's not like he turned Helya into a Val'kyr on a whim. He did that for his plan to create the Valarjar to protect Azeroth. He had a specific purpose and knew how to do it. Additionally, as discussed before, assassination - which I assume you are referring to Skovald's family - has nothing to do with "valor" that Odyn is obsessed with. Valor, as a concept, means (as per dictionaries) having courage in battle or in face of great danger. Any action outside of a battle, a war, or while not being in danger does NOT make you more or less valorous. That's why you have warriors / soldiers in real life who are considered valorous and yet act like jerks outside of war (someone brought the Vikings up, I think that's a good example). Odyn didn't order the death of Skovald's family because he was in danger, neither did he do that because they were in a war with each other. He was just doing what our secret service agents do - remove the threat of the nation (well, in his case, the world). In other words, "valor" has nothing to do there. The act didn't make Odyn less (or more) valorous.

    Thirdly, while Odyn might not care much for others' feelings, he didn't do what he did to Helya for his own selfish gain. He did that entirely for the good of Azeroth, as stated in Chronicle. I wouldn't call that a selfish act. I would even like to point out that Helya, like other non-Keeper being in the original Titanforged army, was artificially created to serve / assist the Keepers with their job. It's quite debatable whether Odyn was just forcing her to do what she literally was created for - helping him to protect Azeroth.

    Don't get me wrong. Odyn is a jerk. He is also rather vainglorious and elitist in a way, similar to some Greek Gods (or Odin in Norse mythology). However, I'd rather siding with a jerk that I know will be having the same goal of protecting Azeroth as us than someone who is evil at heart, act evil - until her moment of death, and willingly take the Legion side (which means selling off Azeroth, basically) for her own gain. He might turn against us in the future, but so might Helya (in fact, there are more chance for her to do that simply because she hate the living) and that's the future. We are living in the present, if we don't beat the Legion, there isn't a future for us to worry about. That's the same reason why you don't see anyone asking for retribution against LK Bolvar's actions (murdering OUR force and stealing corpses) yet, even though those are a lot worse to us than what Odyn did in the past - because he is also supposedly working to protect Azeroth.
    Last edited by Qualia; 2017-05-09 at 11:43 PM.
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang
    Donnons le sang de guillotine
    Pour guerir la secheresse de la guillotine
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang.

  20. #60
    Scarab Lord Frontenac's Avatar
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    Well, the norse god Odin was not always good either, and he was not above cheating to be victorious. He was known as a god of treachery. One of his names was Ginnar, "Deceiver" and another one was... Skollvaldr, "Ruler of Treachery." No Norseman would have called Odin "evil."

    Many divinities who were considered "good" did bad things. Zeus was a unpenitent womanizer. He loved Metis, who did not love him. He tricked her to transform into a fly and swallowed her whole. Sometime later, Zeus had a splitting headache and asked Hephaistos to actually split his skull with his axe. From the wound was born the goddess Athena. Let's not forget that he promised to free the Cyclops and the Hecatonchires if they helped the Olympians in their war against the Titans... only to swiftly put them back in Tartarus when he won the war.

    Recently, I saw a clip from the movie Moana. The polynesian god Maui was singing a song to his own glory. He immediately reminded me Odin. I read a little about him. Well, Maui did what he sang in the song: harnessing the Sun, giving fire to mankind, raising islands from the bottom of the sea. A good guy. He was also married to the very beautiful goddess, Rohe. Since he was himself rather ugly, he asked her to exchange their faces. She refused, but Maui cast a spell on her while she was sleeping. When her wife saw her ugly face, she left him and ran into the Underworld, where she became a terrible goddess of death...
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

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