Havoc in Legion: 7.2.5 Guide

[Quag]

No one 'decided' that its just how our stats interact. Crit is our best stat, but you wouldn't want 80% crit and 1% mastery, you get way more value when they are closer. Stat weights are not particularly useful at this point, because once you get to a certain ilvl, around 905ish mastery and crit can be so close that swapping one item can change which is the 'best' stat for you.

The reason 50% crit is generally held as 'enough' is because of how fast our rotation is, ofc u can still get bad rng and have 5 chaos strikes in a row not crit, but in practice enough will to make sure you don't have fury issues and once your rotation is fairly steady mastery directly impacts how much every single chaos strike hits for.

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the main reason people might stack drit higher than that is item drops - for example, if you have a 910 crit trinket and and 870 mastery one its pretty safe to assume the ilvl will win, the comparison between crit/mastery is only really valid at equal or similar ilvls

[Sangris]

Is there a bug with Simcraft 7.2? I just simmed my DH on both CB and Demonic and it shows me 200k more DPS with Demonic. Such a high difference looks VERY suspicious.

Edit: Nevermind, seems to work now.

[Mamut]

Just got 880 boots and 885 gloves Jacin set. Using atm 905/910 items in this slots. It is worth to sacrifice that much ilvl? Will sim ofc but is the set simming correctly?

[BrioWoW]

What do you think I should run for m+ if I have bracers but no helm? Normal ST raid spec with bloodlet instead of first blood? Memebeam even though I cant reset the cd that much?

[Extremity]

What do you think I should run for m+ if I have bracers but no helm? Normal ST raid spec with bloodlet instead of first blood? Memebeam even though I cant reset the cd that much?

I would run normal ST with bloodlet, yeah. That would give you good ST (similar to First Blood build but prob a bit less) but contribute a lot more to your trash damage. When you think of M+, overall instance-wide damage is a good thing to consider. If you're losing 10,000,000 overall boss damage but are gaining 40,000,000 damage on all the trash, you're still probably contributing to a faster run overall.

[BrioWoW]

Cool, that's what I thought.

[Jastall]

Question; Havoc is the offpsec of my alt, and I play Demonic build because it's more fun than Chaos Blades. I just got the Throw Glaive bracers, and have no other throughput-increasing legendaries for Havoc. Are they worth using, and can I use them alongside the Demonic build?

[Extremity]

Question; Havoc is the offpsec of my alt, and I play Demonic build because it's more fun than Chaos Blades. I just got the Throw Glaive bracers, and have no other throughput-increasing legendaries for Havoc. Are they worth using, and can I use them alongside the Demonic build?

Absolutely, you can definitely run with the bracers especially if that's all you've got. Just bracers or bracers/helm are both fine until you get something you like better, you'll just run with Bloodlet over Chaos Cleave. If that's the only legendary you have you're probably not super geared, meaning Chaos Cleave might not be the best bet for you anyways. Just swap to Bloodlet and you're good to go until you find an alternative you like more.

[Jastall]

Absolutely, you can definitely run with the bracers especially if that's all you've got. Just bracers or bracers/helm are both fine until you get something you like better, you'll just run with Bloodlet over Chaos Cleave. If that's the only legendary you have you're probably not super geared, meaning Chaos Cleave might not be the best bet for you anyways. Just swap to Bloodlet and you're good to go until you find an alternative you like more.

Yeah, I've tried it in M+ and it seems to work pretty darn well. Bloodlet + Throw Glaive damage seemed to account for 30-40% of my DPS, that's major. Haven't tested on pure single-target yet, not sure how much of an impact losing Chaos Cleave will do. But I do like having an extra button to press, and perhaps there's method in trying to throw the glaives outside of meta in order to not waste the buff.

[Extremity]

Yeah, I've tried it in M+ and it seems to work pretty darn well. Bloodlet + Throw Glaive damage seemed to account for 30-40% of my DPS, that's major. Haven't tested on pure single-target yet, not sure how much of an impact losing Chaos Cleave will do. But I do like having an extra button to press, and perhaps there's method in trying to throw the glaives outside of meta in order to not waste the buff.

Bloodlet was actually the main spec for us when Legion first launched. When running Bloodlet and the bracers you definitely want to prioritize keeping the debuff active.

During Meta, when you want to prioritize other abilities, it's okay not to Throw Glaive immediately on cooldown if running MotG; just remember to always have Throw Glaive's CD ticking. If you run with Master of the Glaive, you won't lose DPS as long as you never have both Throw Glaive charges up. If you don't run that, you're losing damage any time Throw Glaive is up no matter what. It's just one ability and it's definitely worth applying it consistently to ensure Bloodlet never falls off the target.

Chaos Cleave does not become better than other talents in terms of single target until you have pretty good gear/secondary stats. I think it's better in Demonic because of how it synergizes, but I would still run a sim to compare it to the alternatives. I can't say for sure but First Blood might beat it for pure ST based on your gear, who knows.

If running the bracers, though, then the answer is yes - run Bloodlet, always, even in ST. Another thing to consider is the order your Throw Glaive is bouncing. If you have a boss and two adds, you always want to Throw Glaive at one of the adds so that the final (or at least the first) BOUNCE hits the boss. Since the bracers increase the damage by 50% for each bounce, the targets hit last always take more damage. Not only are you doing this to do the highest amount to the target that matters the most, but because you don't have to worry about target death; applying Bloodlet to an enemy that dies 3 seconds later is obviously going to do less DPS.

I'm rambling a bit, but yeah, as I said -- absolutely take Bloodlet over Chaos Cleave when using the bracers, even for ST. Chaos Cleave is not contributing more fragments or anything if you run Demonic Appetite and while it synergizes well it changes absolutely nothing in terms of gameplay (outside of how often you'll hit Chaos Strike compared to having another priority ability with Bloodlet or First Blood selected).

If you run with Master of the Glaive, you can dump two Throw Glaives to get a higher DoT quicker but since the damage is additive you wont lose damage as long as one charge of Throw Glaive is always on CD. If you do not run it, for instance if you run the talent where Meta resets your Eye Beam and other CDs, then you'll want to use your single Throw Glaive charge pretty much immediately as it becomes available.

I just wrote a really long post offering very basic information that I could have said in two sentences, which is the first sign that I'm overtired and need to go to sleep. If you need more help, lemme know.

[Biggmac]

Chaos Cleave does not become better than other talents in terms of single target until you have pretty good gear/secondary stats. I think it's better in Demonic because of how it synergizes, but I would still run a sim to compare it to the alternatives. I can't say for sure but First Blood might beat it for pure ST based on your gear, who knows.

This is what I've been curious about, currently I'm ilvl 905 with 41% crit, 20% haste, and ~30% mastery with AoTHG and Trinket legendary's. Gonna go with delusions once I get a meta cd relic. I'm just wondering around at what gear point Chaos cleave becomes better? And then I'm assuming that blade dance gets completely dropped out of rotation.

[Extremity]

This is what I've been curious about, currently I'm ilvl 905 with 41% crit, 20% haste, and ~30% mastery with AoTHG and Trinket legendary's. Gonna go with delusions once I get a meta cd relic. I'm just wondering around at what gear point Chaos cleave becomes better? And then I'm assuming that blade dance gets completely dropped out of rotation.

I'm not the best person to give you serious Chaos Cleave advice as I just started toying around with it myself. I can say that the game seems to be pretty picky about at which point it is RELIABLY better, and it's at a point where you've got a significant amount of secondary stats as far as I can tell. Your crit is alright, right around where it should be but isn't what I would call "high". Your Mastery is really, really low and you should probably be trying to increase it; your haste is pretty damn high, too, so I'd be losing haste wherever I could to gain more Mastery or Crit (but focus on Mastery when you can). If I had to guess I would say you aren't at a point where CC would be better, but I could be wrong; your best bet is to just sim the specs.

Here's an easy way to not only run a sim, but one meant to compare talents:
https://raidbots.com/simbot/talents

Set that up and compare your standard First Blood build to whatever Chaos Cleave build you would run and see how it looks.

Oh, before I forget -- Chaos Cleave is extremely dependant on Critical Chaos relics, having three of those is pretty crucial. If you're going to use a Meta CD relic for 2MM with shoulders (which is what I run, too) that alone might make Chaos Cleave not worth it. Again, though, the sim is king; run it.

[malgor21]

Chaos cleave works best with belt. Any 2MM or Demonic build favors First Blood even though CC may outperform in really high ilvls. The reason is that annihilation is 30% buff to chaos strike whereas Death Sweep is 50% and less CD.

tldr : Meta dmg output favors FB so high meta uptime builds CC takes more stats to catch FB

[Extremity]

@malgor21

That makes sense, thanks for clarifying for everyone.

[Lostprophet]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/S1AOCqkeZ

2mM Build @905ilvl and 2 CC traits

[Extremity]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/S1AOCqkeZ

2mM Build @905ilvl and 2 CC traits

Demonic is pretty damn close for you, too:

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/SyWANzlxb

And remember, that's for a Patchwerk fight -- meaning that it's close enough that, as far as I can tell, if a fight has *any* adds (and most do) that you can hit with your Eye Beams even some of the time Demonic is going to surpass the other builds. I know that Chaos Cleave damage would also increase with adds, but I don't know how well it'd keep up; I suppose we could sim with adds, too.

I think it would come down to what type of adds. If they come now and then and die quickly (but you can get a full Eye Beam off) I think Demonic would win, as a full Eye Beam before they die will probably contribute a lot more than a few 10% cleaves. If, on the other hand, there are adds reliably up for a majority of the fight that you can cleave off of most of the time, Chaos Cleave might surpass. I dunno. Sim it, yo!

[Deleted]

Guys what should I do?

Im around 904ilvl with ~41% crit

I use 1st blood build and got these legendaries (sephuz, raddon, aothg, boots, chest, shoulders, moarg)

If boss is pure Single Target i use aoth + sephuz

But what should I do on cleave fight? Can I just change 1st blood to bloodlet and play like that ?

I simc myself and.... on ST (both with aothg)
bloodlet with moarg
is better then
1st blood with sephuz

[Skyepic]

I'm a little confused on the Relic Values:

1 relic = 6.246 (0 relics to 1 relic)

6.246 what? Item level?

So a non-chaos cleave relic needs to add atleast 7 item level to our weapon to be a viable replacement?

[Vanyali]

I'm a little confused on the Relic Values:

1 relic = 6.246 (0 relics to 1 relic)

6.246 what? Item level?

So a non-chaos cleave relic needs to add atleast 7 item level to our weapon to be a viable replacement?

Weapon ilvls. Thanks for the catch, updating

[lovingbenji]

playing a lot with the new raidbots site, love it

However, very strange results : it seems the demonic build is the best for me (it sims the highest), no problem here, but if I switch Sephuz for Raddon I loose 30k dps ! (keeping the 4 set bonus of course). How can it be possible ?? I thought Raddon was better for this build as it buff one of its main spell no ?! How can I even loose so much dps ?