"Pay to Win"

[Deleted]

No, you are.

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It already is lol

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You're contradicting yourself. You admit the picture is right, state that according to the picture WoW is not pay 2 win and then say WoW has exp boosts, which according to the picture would make it pay 2 win.

It doesn't matter whether the boost doesn't bring you to max level. First of all, in MoP, when it was introduced, it did bring you to max level. Then they adjusted it to level 100 in WoD. So there were times when the boost brought you to max level. Second of all, you can buy gold, with which you can buy gear for max level. That's an ingame advantage. Case closed.

how is it pay2win?
cause you can skip the first 100 levels? but get 0.0% advantage at max level?

[Deleted]

how is it pay2win?
cause you can skip the first 100 levels? but get 0.0% advantage at max level?

You can buy boe's, loot runs for dungeons and raids, so there is an advantage. I have not heard anyone claim that it was really bad what blizzard is doing atm, but, it still is p2w and there is a place for abuse in this system.

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Don't give them ideas. The p2w players would quickly create winning conditions with BIS shop gear. Just like ranking players do now without shop gear, but with potential paid boosts/consumables from bought gold, even real money transfers.

It is a delicate matter, which I am glad you are highlighting. The popularity of your investigation/instigation I take as representable of how widespread and accepted cheating is.

Which is much why I want to ask you, what your purpose is. To restore competition/balance? To fix the economy? To prove a fact?

I fear the latter.

And what exactly is the p2w problem? It can't be the shop, it must be gold. Just to make it clear where and what the problem is.

People paying pennies to kids or younger sibling to have them grind for them. p2w?

Because when the margins are as they are, even more nowadays with AP.

Buying an account of e-bay should be much cheaper. And healthier for your family.

Then with a new expansion almost any advantage are nullified.

Really. What are gold buyers winning? In justice they are losers, cheaters.

I don't even look at the gear from that guy doing 1.2 mill dps. If we wanted competition intact gold buying is the least of our concerns.

Naturally economy wont ever be fixed before the influx from gold buyers completely fade, which it certainly never wont.

The only people who have won anything are the people who sold the gold, next up is Blizzard, then comes rest of players, then comes the cheater.

There isn't a real problem, its just what this thread is about "what is p2w and does it happen in wow". There are p2w aspects in this game, yet some people go through mighty lengths to somehow try to disprove this.

The only people who are legally allowed to sell gold is blizzard, the rest that sold gold for cash are criminals.

What you or i think of these people doesn't really matter, as it has no bearing on the whole p2w thing.

[Elim Garak]

What if you were part of the world first race and during the heroic week of NH some random unrelated dood killed the first trash on normal and got a 925 socket leech trash epic and decided to put it up for sale in the auction house for exorbitant amount of gold? This item is a decent boost to your performance and might even help kill a boss or two one attempt earlier and you decide to buy the gold to afford the item, would you in this case be buying power where it is actually relevant to "winning" anything?

Same scenario only you don't need to buy gold because you have 1 million on each alt, because you play AH well or farmed it in WoD.

You are wrong. I remember for example at the beginning of WoD that the endgame guilds had to pay big money on the auction house to get the best gear possible for the Highmaul progression race. .

What best gear? From whom?

No, you are.

How original.

[Deleted]

Same scenario only you don't need to buy gold because you have 1 million on each alt, because you play AH well or farmed it in WoD.

You mean to say that people who play the game do not need to buy gold.. who would have thought.. /s

[Nevcairiel]

Second of all, you can buy gold, with which you can buy gear for max level. That's an ingame advantage. Case closed.

You trade the gold with other players on the auction house. Blizzard does not sell you gold, they only offer you a marketplace to trade gold.
People always like to forget this fact because it makes their arguments so much more convenient.

[Deleted]

This is no different than how it was in vanilla, but then we had real ladders and twinks with people mopping the floor with casuals. Like someone who play 12h a day should. Not anymore that is.
Allow me to elaborate:
My problem is with people who buy small amounts of gold to sustain themselves in wow.
Everyone else's problem seem to be with losers trying to get anywhere in wow with bought gold, even "win" something.

Yes, you used to be able to buy boe's, but you could not buy the gold (legally) to obtain them.

Why do you dislike the people buying small amount? I don't get it either way, as i can buy what ever with my ~2m. But it seems to me that people who try to buy a real advantage for a world first or what ever should be even more despicable then some dude that likes to play the /roll game in /general.

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You trade the gold with other players on the auction house. Blizzard does not sell you gold, they only offer you a marketplace to trade gold.
People always like to forget this fact because it makes their arguments so much more convenient.

They sell an item that is worth allot of gold for real cash, so yea, they sell gold.

[Salty Maud]

Same scenario only you don't need to buy gold because you have 1 million on each alt, because you play AH well or farmed it in WoD.

Or you do none of that, buy the gold, buy the power and spend that time farming mythic+ instead for ever more power. Time is at a premium when there is any sort of race going on, be it local race with the guilds of your realm or the race for world first.

What best gear? From whom?

BRF epics from BMAH when Highmaul opened. They were pretty much instant goldcap bids. Some guilds/players were even repeatedly transferring realms to buy everything they can from everywhere they can.

[Deleted]

Then who's thoughts matter without win conditions? iow the question about p2w doesn't apply to wow. Without win conditions it cannot possibly be p2w. Even if there are p2w elements.

your own logic: there's water in the air. that doesn't make the air water.

And indeed, it's a interesting subject to debate. Thread doesn't come out like it though as it's on a wow is p2w wave. Of course you get straight disapprovals.

But as i've said, by that logic nothing would be out of bounce, you could literally sell bis gear before you even finished leveling your toon and it would still not be p2w.

Im not sure what you trying to say with that, but correct, if there is water in the air that doesn't make the air water. But it does make the air moist.

All in all i do not think it matters what you describe a "win in wow", anything that will give you an advantage over someone who didn't pay this premium could be considered a win.

[Elim Garak]

Or you do none of that, buy the gold

Why are you repeating your scenario again?
I took your scenario and removed "buy gold" part and it's the same scenario with the same outcome, thus buying gold has nothing to do with it.

BRF epics

So not the best gear. Which anyone could've bought or farmed in BRF. Totally not pay 2 win.

[Deleted]

Why are you repeating your scenario again?
I took your scenario and removed "buy gold" part and it's the same scenario with the same outcome, thus buying gold has nothing to do with it.

So people playing the game and earning gold is the same as buying gold? The whole point of the gold buying is that they do not have to spend time on the AH or farming. You can't remove buying gold from the scenario because you are then just left with people playing a game without buying anything.

[Xires]

What is YOUR definition of "pay to win"?

As it relates to WoW, do you believe the game is now pay to win, or not at all pay to win?

No, it isn't. "Pay to win" means that you can use money to buy all the best gear without having to enter a raid.
The game is nowhere near close to "pay to win" as raiding is still the best/fastest way to get the best gear possible.
When we start to see people decked out in mythic raiding gear while never having entered a mythic raid...then we'll talk.

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not pay to win atm but pay to have a huge advantage... you can indirectly buy gold. with gold you can buy legendaries,boosts etc..you won't be #1 but can easily be top 10-20% with enough gold/irl money

lol..no you can't. You need skill and LOTS of gear that you can only get in mythic raids. You can't buy gear in the quantity or quality that you need to have any advantage over anybody that raids end game.

[Naiattavain]

What is YOUR definition of "pay to win"?

As it relates to WoW, do you believe the game is now pay to win, or not at all pay to win?

there is the biggest problem with private client hacks exploits bugs, private cheaters use custom up to date hacking software to break the game.

[Xires]

you mean like the 940ilevel legendaries currently on the ah?

Yes, the sub-par legendaris that you can equip a max of TWO. That isn't "pay to win" in the least, lol

I don't think you can grasp the concept of what "pay to win" is. 2 940 pieces via gold or via rng are not "game breaking" or "pay to win".
The rest of your gear can still suck.

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there is the biggest problem with private client hacks exploits bugs, private cheaters use custom up to date hacking software to break the game.

They aren't game breaking and people tend to get caught and lose everything. Also, those cheaters are bots that farm shit...and it isn't 905+ gear. lol

[Deleted]

No, it isn't. "Pay to win" means that you can use money to buy all the best gear without having to enter a raid.
The game is nowhere near close to "pay to win" as raiding is still the best/fastest way to get the best gear possible.
When we start to see people decked out in mythic raiding gear while never having entered a mythic raid...then we'll talk.

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lol..no you can't. You need skill and LOTS of gear that you can only get in mythic raids. You can't buy gear in the quantity or quality that you need to have any advantage over anybody that raids end game.

Top 20% doesn't require that much, you can easily be boosted to that.

[Xires]

Buying any ingame advantage with real money is pay to win, so yeah, WoW is pay to win ever since they introduced the WoW token. I mean we can now even buy legendary items with real money.

You can buy up to two sub-par legendaries that don't compare to the RNG ones that drop....great.
2 sub-par legendaries are NOT "pay to win". You aren't suddenly going to go in and start clearing mythic raids with ease because of it and it doesn't add a ton of damage to your character. You are acting like 2 sub-par legendarys are going to add 100k+ damage to your char when in reality the sub-par ones....don't add all that much.
You can have two sub-par legy's and still only be ilvl 850...you aren't going to go around stomping shit and raiders (especially mythic) are still going to crush you in dmg.

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Everything is for sale in wow. Any achievement you want to have has a price tag on it and blizzard is raking in the cash because of it. How is that not pay to win? It's been this way a long time, but it's gone to the extreme in this expansion.

ANY achievement has a price tag on it? Did you kill Mythic archi last x-pac? Have you killed mythic Guldan? Have you killed anything mythic?

If a world first guilds chooses to sell runs then that is their business....blizzard didn't do that. Gone to the extreme? Wow, you people obviously don't raid if you think that 2 legendaries makes your character "super uper powerful"....because they don't. lol

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Top 20% doesn't require that much, you can easily be boosted to that.

Not with 2 legendaries you can't(even the best ones that require rng) and most people aren't in the "top 20%" so...nice try...but fail. Also, the top 20% does actually require a bit because you are ahead of 80% of the player base. lol Your math and logic fail.

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lol if you pay for those 940's they will not win you anything.....

This ^^^^^^^^ Those legendaries are meant to be replaced by GOOD legendaries and legendaries are NOT the "end all be all". You can still have low/shitty gear and still suck on the meters with your two legys OR you can just be a terrible player.

[Deleted]

how do you reckon wow is p2w? lol

[Sylvaeres]

Cant someone ban you again for stupid posts?

WoW doesnt have a single P2W element.

Pay to win is when game provides gear/damage/buffs with money that are relevant to the active progression of the game.

Rift and earring slots as example.

Buff scrolls in old MMOs back in 2003-2005.

Ya, let's all NOT post on the forums instead. Genius level idea right there

On topic: this game has had pay to win elements for a while if you know the right people

[Deleted]

Pay 2 Win, certainly not. But Pay for an advantage - exclusive Cosmetics, exclusive Pets, exclusive Mounts, Gold for cash, Special Services, etc, yes.

Blizzard is the Master of the fine art of getting your customers to pay for additional, digital content, without giving the illusion that you need it to be part of the game. Just look at the sales numbers of the Pets and Mounts.

[Xires]

Wait, what? You do know we can buy gold with real money, and with that gold we can get gear, right? So how are we not able to pay for a gameplay leverage against other players? Gear isn't an advantage against other players?

lol because the gear that you can buy is obsolete compared to raid gear and the raid gear BoE's that you CAN get are not enough to deck your character out in the best gear. A few extra high ilvl pieces on a player with mostly low ilvl gear and low skills are NOT going to break the game and it does NOT make it "pay to win". lol
The only people that think so are the noob players who don't understand how much their damage pals in comparing to a mythic or even heroic raider even with a handful of 900+ BoE's and 2 shitty legendaries that they bought with gold. There is a REASON you can buy those legys and it isn't because they are meant as a "stand in" until you get lucky enough to get a REAL legendary.

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That is a very narrow definition of pay to win, but of course, I'm just a kid.

and not a very bright one at that....

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Ya, let's all NOT post on the forums instead. Genius level idea right there

On topic: this game has had pay to win elements for a while if you know the right people

Blizzard can't prevent endgame guilds from running people over content that they no longer find relevant. That isn't a "pay to win" system implemented by blizzard at all. It is endgame guilds who want to make money for their guild or themselves and it is not on such a scale that suddenly every LFR noob is suddenly going to be decked in 905+ gear. Most people in WoW don't have the money that those guilds are asking for for a single run through. It used to cost you 1-2 million gold if you wanted a mythic archi run from the best guilds/guilds who had it on farm long enough.

You still don't know what "pay to win" is and blaming blizzard fro the actions of a handful of guilds that benefit only the few extremely rich is NOT anywhere near the same thing as me going to a blizzard store and buying all 905+ gear without stepping foot into a raid.

So, NO. WoW is not "pay to win"...never has been.

[ssviolett]

It's the cleverest pay-to-win scheme ever introduced.

You "Sell" WoW tokens. Paying blizzard roughly $20 per 100k gold in the process.

Then you use the in game gold to buy carries, gear, titles and acheivements. If you don't believe me, literally go to any majorly populated realm and see how many "Full Clear Mythic EN, Get your loot, Titles and mounts now! PST for prices" spam there is.

This game is Pay to Win and if you can't see that, then it's just testament to how clever blizzard's implementation is.


Also, lol @ all these people who think they are "Playing wow for free" by buying tokens. rofl

This is definitely not the same.
You go to the shop and buy an item like "+100% damage for 1 hour" for $$$ - this is pay to win
You receive gold from shop and then actually PLAY to get gear (you have to be in time, you have to play your character, boss might not to drop an item you want), does not matter boosted by someone or not - this is not pay to win.