About that combat revamp

[threads]

they don't need to get rid of raid buffs tbh. they just need to nerf their power. if the difference between meta comp wasn't so obviously strong it wouldn't be as big of a deal to be missing certain classes.

resist debuffs idk. i like having variable finishers on combos but i also hate hearing people complain that i'm playing x instead of y because it hurts their damage.

[Katchii]

they don't need to get rid of raid buffs tbh. they just need to nerf their power. if the difference between meta comp wasn't so obviously strong it wouldn't be as big of a deal to be missing certain classes.

resist debuffs idk. i like having variable finishers on combos but i also hate hearing people complain that i'm playing x instead of y because it hurts their damage.

This last statement is big part of why I don't really ever pursue raiding at a high level, because everything is about squeezing out as much damage and performance as possible down to the specific raid composition...even when the content is old enough and average gear levels are high enough to easily break the DPS/ performance thresholds for that specific raid. I personally get enough micromanagement, performance evaluations and metric measuring at work so when i come home to play a game I want it to feel like a game that I enjoy and have fun with rather than it feeling almost like a second job. That's not to say I won't perform my best, I'm just saying I don't want someone else actively measuring and evaluating my performance to rate me on it and discuss with me how good or bad it is in relation to the raid comp.

[Kazgrel]

they don't need to get rid of raid buffs tbh. they just need to nerf their power. if the difference between meta comp wasn't so obviously strong it wouldn't be as big of a deal to be missing certain classes.

resist debuffs idk. i like having variable finishers on combos but i also hate hearing people complain that i'm playing x instead of y because it hurts their damage.

Then there's folks like me, whose favorite dps jobs happen to all not be part of the meta group...

Doesn't bother me, though; I don't do bleeding edge progression raiding, so the content I am doing can be done with pretty much any combo of dps that comes along.

- - - Updated - - -

This last statement is big part of why I don't really ever pursue raiding at a high level, because everything is about squeezing out as much damage and performance as possible down to the specific raid composition...even when the content is old enough and average gear levels are high enough to easily break the DPS/ performance thresholds for that specific raid. I personally get enough micromanagement, performance evaluations and metric measuring at work so when i come home to play a game I want it to feel like a game that I enjoy and have fun with rather than it feeling almost like a second job. That's not to say I won't perform my best, I'm just saying I don't want someone else actively measuring and evaluating my performance to rate me on it and discuss with me how good or bad it is in relation to the raid comp.

Similar to how I view it. I'm happy to look up/keep track of things like stat weights here and attempt to optimize gear setups as well as I can, even though I don't raid in a static. I'm all about putting the best foot forward...but it's not to satisfy some other person who happens to be parsing or whatever. I do it for my own enjoyment. I like seeing improvement in my own performance.

[Wrecktangle]

I'd prefer them to roll it all into a generic +Physical/Magical damage taken debuff. Assuming they were availible to multiple or all classes, or even as a cross class, then I can't really see the issue. As long as you have someone whose keeping them up so your group benefits then you're golden. It may not be the most interesting mechanic in the world, but realistically it's the only way you can have DPS Jobs interact with one another.

Ideally, I'd like Squenix to add a debuff based supporty/DPS class where these types of debuff would fit right in, a Green Mage or a Time Mage perhaps. Something like that anyway. Oh well, a man can dream.

If we dumb it down to that point though, why even have it? I know people cry at the thought of a prune, but they're dumb maintenance debuffs that aren't fun to upkeep. They don't visibly change or enhance your gameplay in any fashion (if the only feedback is bigger numbers, it's not gameplay enhancing), and worstly people complain if they don't have theirs up.

I think the game is already a bit oversatured with the "mages", and plus Time Mage basically already exists it's called Astrologian.

As a tank I'd like less keys to hit and a quicker GCD so I could recover faster from overzealous DPS, but that same change might cause more issues. What we have now is fine, but I don't want more, especially with the long GCD.

I know the console fanbase probably wouldn't like it as choosing abilities doesn't seem like it's remotely as fast as hitting a button on a keyboard.

I see a lower GCD changing the dynamic of classes and fights overall since people would expect more dps/better performance and then it may become expected of console players to use a keyboard and mouse. I say that without knowing if you can use a mouse on the PS3/4 version and I'm aware you can use a keyboard.

pssht. You should see the amount of buttons I have to rapidly press to do some BNB combos in fighting games. I can push buttons on a controller just as fast if not faster than I can on a keyboard honestly.

If we're talking faster GCD's I wish my suggestion found a way in. In combo GCD's were shorter 1.5s, but after finishing a combo it was standard 2.5s. This way it actually felt like you were doing a combo and not a attack pause, attack pause, attack pause. oGCD's would likely need a rework in this situation though.

Have the turret apply the base debuff being proposed, then the Hypercharge doubles it's effectiveness, similar to how Battle Voice works with Foe Requiem on BRD.

Yeah, that makes MCH even more BRD-like, but it's one way to implement the generic physical/magic damage debuffs.

Sometimes and I say this lightly, homogenization is a good thing. This would be a good example.

That said I still think anytime you have to label something as "generic" it needs a rework lol.

they don't need to get rid of raid buffs tbh. they just need to nerf their power. if the difference between meta comp wasn't so obviously strong it wouldn't be as big of a deal to be missing certain classes.

resist debuffs idk. i like having variable finishers on combos but i also hate hearing people complain that i'm playing x instead of y because it hurts their damage.

let me ask you a better question. Why should they be in the game? What value do they add to your gameplay?

[Kazgrel]

Sometimes and I say this lightly, homogenization is a good thing. This would be a good example.

That said I still think anytime you have to label something as "generic" it needs a rework lol.

Aruhen makes a valid counterpoint to my idea, though; having MCH being able to "Battle Voice" the physical damage debuff pretty much makes them near mandatory, and in turn, further boosts what is the current dps meta (DRG/NIN/MCH/BRD) since they're all physical damage.

I expect they will want to keep these sort of debuffs around, but don't think for a minute I would shed a tear if they simply got rid of them.

[StrawberryZebra]

If we dumb it down to that point though, why even have it? I know people cry at the thought of a prune, but they're dumb maintenance debuffs that aren't fun to upkeep. They don't visibly change or enhance your gameplay in any fashion (if the only feedback is bigger numbers, it's not gameplay enhancing), and worstly people complain if they don't have theirs up.

Without these kinds of abilities in play groups are going to stack whichever DPS performs the best without any kind of penalty. If only for the sake of diversity, there needs to be some way for DPS classes to play off each other in some limited fashion. Damage buffs like these are the least interesting, but also the least game breaking, way of doing that. You can get by without them just fine, but having them makes a significant difference.

When you mix different healing classes together you can get stacking benefits for your troubles, while one shields the other applies a HoT. You have cooldowns that can be rotated and worked around to ease the burden of heavy damage periods. Your presence has an affect on the other healer(s) around you in a way that DPS classes are really lacking. DPS classes should have a small effect on the other DPS around them, or else the game feels more like simply soloing along side other players.

[Wrecktangle]

Without these kinds of abilities in play groups are going to stack whichever DPS performs the best without any kind of penalty. If only for the sake of diversity, there needs to be some way for DPS classes to play off each other in some limited fashion. Damage buffs like these are the least interesting, but also the least game breaking, way of doing that. You can get by without them just fine, but having them makes a significant difference.

When you mix different healing classes together you can get stacking benefits for your troubles, while one shields the other applies a HoT. You have cooldowns that can be rotated and worked around to ease the burden of heavy damage periods. Your presence has an affect on the other healer(s) around you in a way that DPS classes are really lacking. DPS classes should have a small effect on the other DPS around them, or else the game feels more like simply soloing along side other players.

My Ret doesn't improve the DPS of any other DPS in WoW, but I'm brought to every bit of content in the game despite not being anything other than slightly above average in the damage comparison.

This experience echoes all the way up to top 20 US raiding, can't say anything about once you go higher than that.

So with that evidence in mind why does FF14 need stale ass maintenance debuffs again? Who would be excluded from what content if these were removed; if you don't mind clarifying?

[StrawberryZebra]

My Ret doesn't improve the DPS of any other DPS in WoW, but I'm brought to every bit of content in the game despite not being anything other than slightly above average in the damage comparison.

This experience echoes all the way up to top 20 US raiding, can't say anything about once you go higher than that.

So with that evidence in mind why does FF14 need stale ass maintenance debuffs again? Who would be excluded from what content if these were removed; if you don't mind clarifying?

I've not played WoW in a long while, but I believe Ret has (had?) a blessing that improves melee DPS? Paladins in general used to bring a lot of buffs to the table, I'm not sure if thats changed since I stopped playing however. My guild used to bring along Paladins of any role for the buffs, I'm guessing that's not the case you're outlining above, but it was true when I did play WoW. I know WoW has changed a lot since I last played it, but I would assume that Blessings are still around in one form or another, and that you'll probably want those kinds of buffs for raiding content.

The maintainance debuff gives groups a reason to want to bring classes for reasons other than their personal DPS. It's really no different from wanting a Shaman for Bloodlust or a Paladin for BoM, but those kinds of abilities don't really exist in FF 14. I'd much prefer it if they did, huge group cooldowns like Bloodlust are awesome even if they are a balancing nightmare. They're also far more interesting than lame ass maintainance debuffs, even if they're just a different way of adding the same level of power.

Forcing that kind of class diversity isn't exactly elegant, completely the opposite, but it does give people who want to play classes that might be underperforming the chance to do so in raiding content without handicapping their group.

As for people being excluded, we're already seeing this to an extent in FF 14. The go-to raid setup for powering your way through content is DRK/WAR/AST/SCH/DRG/NIN/MCH/BRD. It doesn't outright prevent anyone from raiding as a Summoner or a Monk, but those classes are certainly less desirable than those listed above. That setup came about because of the debuffs we're talking about, the interactions between those jobs makes the setup greater than the sum of its' parts.

I think that all DPS setups should be that way, where being in a group makes each member far more powerful than if they were solo. We're not seeing that with FF 14 at all, but spreading some (de)buffs around for Stormblood through cross-class skills could have the desired effect.

[Deleted]

the blessing you speak of, was adding to the rets damage. A weird attempt by blizzard that has since been rectified and ret damage boosted accordingly

[threads]

let me ask you a better question. Why should they be in the game? What value do they add to your gameplay?

not sure which part you're asking about. the raid buffs just add some supportive element to the gameplay that creates things like meta comps and cooridnating raid burst etc.

as far as resist debuffs/maint buffs i just meant having some variety to combos and abilities i'm using i guess. it'd be boring if i just did the same 123 combo an entire fight on my monk.

[Deleted]

Therein lies the problem, why even bring a monk if DRK does the debuff anyway. This isn't helping the problem, either xd

[The Casualty]

Therein lies the problem, why even bring a monk if DRK does the debuff anyway. This isn't helping the problem, either xd

Part of why Monk isn't in the meta is the fault of Paladin. If Paladin took Dark Knight's spot, you would see more Monks. That and monk does do some pretty ridiculous single target numbers, especially in comparison to DRG/NIN, who likely has that spot in the raid if the Monk does not.


Regardless, I think everyone is blowing this vastly out of proportion. You have ALWAYS been able to clear all content with all classes with a halfway though out comp. Even if you just had a standard 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 dps, as long as no one was duplicates without any more thought put into it, you would have enough diversity to make it work.

Where you are seeing the meta really edge out other comps is folks who are trying to get faster clear times on stuff that has been on farm for 6+ months and to be really effective needs coordinated burst by their members to push specific phases on encounters (like skipping full metal faust entirely on A9S, all adds on A10, Lapis and all E.D.Ds on A11 etc...)

If a group requires a specific set up to make any progress, I suggest not joining them. They are bad.

[Deleted]

Not true.
A3S was not doable with a paladin for quite some time. Not because Paladins were bad players. Their DPS just was not sufficient to do it. Before that tweak came, that is.

I know what you're saying and I agree, but A3S is a one off.


I dont know if Monks have changed, but when I played, he was sorta a turret. Stick to one target and not really handle other mechanics, or target swaps, we worked around that. He did retarded numbers though, so it worked for us, and yes we even used a DRK!

I meant more as an argument FOR removal of buffs. Bring the players, not the classes. Just to clarify

[Nurvus]

I doubt they'd change it but I am still really hoping for it. Get rid of class debuff dependency. Drg and monk can debuff the mobs themselves so why do other jobs have to rely on them? Like bard/mch. It's dumb.

I guess an easy way to "fix" it is to add a new ability for bard/mch that gives the disembowel effect.

Well I think there should be something encouraging a good balance of classes, rather than class stacking.
So the solution shouldn't be radical.

Specially considering you can play all classes in a single character, I think FFXIV risks getting into the "whatever" mentality of nowaday's MMOs.

That being said,
a) Combat has MUCH to improve - it can learn a lot from the variety of effects and interactions available in WoW.
b) Classes should be a lot more than their mandatory debuffs, and I think this game does not deliver on that very well.

[Wrecktangle]

I've not played WoW in a long while, but I believe Ret has (had?) a blessing that improves melee DPS? Paladins in general used to bring a lot of buffs to the table, I'm not sure if thats changed since I stopped playing however. My guild used to bring along Paladins of any role for the buffs, I'm guessing that's not the case you're outlining above, but it was true when I did play WoW. I know WoW has changed a lot since I last played it, but I would assume that Blessings are still around in one form or another, and that you'll probably want those kinds of buffs for raiding content.

Blessing of Might was a fire and forget buff that was just as useless as these maintenance debuffs I am talking about. Blessing of Might did absolutely nothing for my gameplay. It did not add any decision processes, it did not change or evolve my gameplay method, etc. Depending on what era of WoW you last played I'd give you more detailed info on the buffs (been a Ret since vanilla, no alts. I know the class exceptionally well), but honestly that's not important.

What is important is that these blessings aren't raid spot dictating-ly powerful. Currently Ret has no damage increasing buffs as I stated. I am merely brought because I do reliable DPS as a player. Despite lacking these tools I am not declined from participating in any content I want, at any level I want.

The maintainance debuff gives groups a reason to want to bring classes for reasons other than their personal DPS. It's really no different from wanting a Shaman for Bloodlust or a Paladin for BoM, but those kinds of abilities don't really exist in FF 14. I'd much prefer it if they did, huge group cooldowns like Bloodlust are awesome even if they are a balancing nightmare. They're also far more interesting than lame ass maintainance debuffs, even if they're just a different way of adding the same level of power.

I'm not arguing that the maintenance debuffs aren't mechanically useful. They're very clearly useful. What they aren't is fun. You don't derive any enjoyment from pressing that button and putting a debuff up. Your gameplay doesn't change now that this debuff is up. I'm all for group cooldowns (ala Battle Litany), but cooldowns should be impactful and should enhance, improve, or change your gameplay.

Forcing that kind of class diversity isn't exactly elegant, completely the opposite, but it does give people who want to play classes that might be underperforming the chance to do so in raiding content without handicapping their group.

Which raiding groups were you turned away from because you played an underperforming class? What content specifically and what were you told? As someone who's never experienced or seen this, I'm curious for your actual anecdotal experience.

As for people being excluded, we're already seeing this to an extent in FF 14. The go-to raid setup for powering your way through content is DRK/WAR/AST/SCH/DRG/NIN/MCH/BRD. It doesn't outright prevent anyone from raiding as a Summoner or a Monk, but those classes are certainly less desirable than those listed above. That setup came about because of the debuffs we're talking about, the interactions between those jobs makes the setup greater than the sum of its' parts.

I think that all DPS setups should be that way, where being in a group makes each member far more powerful than if they were solo. We're not seeing that with FF 14 at all, but spreading some (de)buffs around for Stormblood through cross-class skills could have the desired effect.

If we want maintenance debuffs to be a real thing, then make them actually interesting. Make it so that putting that debuff up changes your priority or which abilities you use or which sequence they are used in. As long as something in the gameplay process changes it's fine.

the blessing you speak of, was adding to the rets damage. A weird attempt by blizzard that has since been rectified and ret damage boosted accordingly

Correct, it was literally the dumbest fucking idea I've ever seen them do to ret. There wasn't a single redeeming quality to the mechanic and an overwhelmingly large amount of ret's spoke out in anger over it in alpha, then beta, then live.

not sure which part you're asking about. the raid buffs just add some supportive element to the gameplay that creates things like meta comps and cooridnating raid burst etc.

as far as resist debuffs/maint buffs i just meant having some variety to combos and abilities i'm using i guess. it'd be boring if i just did the same 123 combo an entire fight on my monk.

I'm asking why should maintenance slashing/piercing debuffs be in the game? What do they add? Are they fun debuffs to maintain? Are they fun to have in a party? Are they not fun if they're missing?

I don't disagree that mashing 123 over and over is boring, but do you think that maintenance debuffs that do absolutely nothing to enhance or change your gameplay are fun? Do you think there is no better alternative for other combo's effects?

Regardless, I think everyone is blowing this vastly out of proportion. You have ALWAYS been able to clear all content with all classes with a halfway though out comp. Even if you just had a standard 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 dps, as long as no one was duplicates without any more thought put into it, you would have enough diversity to make it work.

Where you are seeing the meta really edge out other comps is folks who are trying to get faster clear times on stuff that has been on farm for 6+ months and to be really effective needs coordinated burst by their members to push specific phases on encounters (like skipping full metal faust entirely on A9S, all adds on A10, Lapis and all E.D.Ds on A11 etc...)

If a group requires a specific set up to make any progress, I suggest not joining them. They are bad.

I echo this statement emphatically. It's blown out of proportion, and likely anyone pushing it is doing stuff I want no part of.

Not true.
A3S was not doable with a paladin for quite some time. Not because Paladins were bad players. Their DPS just was not sufficient to do it. Before that tweak came, that is.

I know what you're saying and I agree, but A3S is a one off.


I dont know if Monks have changed, but when I played, he was sorta a turret. Stick to one target and not really handle other mechanics, or target swaps, we worked around that. He did retarded numbers though, so it worked for us, and yes we even used a DRK!

I meant more as an argument FOR removal of buffs. Bring the players, not the classes. Just to clarify

A3S is also a bad example. It was so stupidly overtuned and PLD's were so stupidly undertuned. If one or the other was fixed, it'd have been fine.

That being said,
a) Combat has MUCH to improve - it can learn a lot from the variety of effects and interactions available in WoW.
b) Classes should be a lot more than their mandatory debuffs, and I think this game does not deliver on that very well.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

[Kazgrel]

Semi-relevant to the whole "meta comp" discussion.

Keep in mind these top 100 are from groups who have farmed Creator Savage for months, so after a while, all they're concerned with is knocking it out as quickly as possible.

FWIW, world first A12S featured a SMN, which isn't part of the meta. Oddly enough, I don't get near as bent over the exclusion of certain jobs here as I did back in my WoW days. Then again, it's obvious someone's gonna be left out when the group is 8 people instead of 20-25...the latter group size having less of an excuse to exclude people, but if you divide up each WoW class by spec, that's a lot of specs that are gonna get left out.

[threads]

I'm asking why should maintenance slashing/piercing debuffs be in the game? What do they add? Are they fun debuffs to maintain? Are they fun to have in a party? Are they not fun if they're missing?

I don't disagree that mashing 123 over and over is boring, but do you think that maintenance debuffs that do absolutely nothing to enhance or change your gameplay are fun? Do you think there is no better alternative for other combo's effects?

i actually don't really care for those debuffs and i'd rather they didn't exist. i just want the combat to not suffer from removing them.

[The Casualty]

Semi-relevant to the whole "meta comp" discussion.

Keep in mind these top 100 are from groups who have farmed Creator Savage for months, so after a while, all they're concerned with is knocking it out as quickly as possible.

FWIW, world first A12S featured a SMN, which isn't part of the meta. Oddly enough, I don't get near as bent over the exclusion of certain jobs here as I did back in my WoW days. Then again, it's obvious someone's gonna be left out when the group is 8 people instead of 20-25...the latter group size having less of an excuse to exclude people, but if you divide up each WoW class by spec, that's a lot of specs that are gonna get left out.

That is a great link.

A few quotes I found interesting regarding the jobs and viability:

These findings imply that most or all DPS jobs are used indiscriminately at raid percentiles of 75th and below. NIN and DRG hold the most popular seats for play at the 80th percentile and above, while MCH and BRD, the other DPS jobs in the optimal composition, begin declining dramatically in usage at the 90th and 95th percentiles respectively. The optimal composition, then, is not held to rigorously as a strict requirement even at raid percentiles as high as the 95th percentile. Jobs not in the optimal composition see a healthy amount of usage even in high level play, with BLM seeing over 50% usage and SMN over 25% at the 90th percentile. MNK is the slowest to break into the mainstream, holding a usage percentage of around 10% until the 75th percentile.

These observations imply that an optimal composition exists and some jobs are objectively better for overall raid DPS than others; however, all jobs are viable unless attempting to break the top 49 clears. Note that this does not imply that all compositions are viable, just that no job prevents a team from reaching the 95th percentile of speed clears.
Note also that a possible cause of the prevalence of jobs deemed “optimal” is the feedback loop of parties hearing about the optimal composition and recruiting for it, limiting the points of entry for the jobs not in the composition into highly skilled groups.

[Wrecktangle]

i actually don't really care for those debuffs and i'd rather they didn't exist. i just want the combat to not suffer from removing them.

fair enough, we're in agreement then.

[StrawberryZebra]

I'm not arguing that the maintenance debuffs aren't mechanically useful. They're very clearly useful. What they aren't is fun. You don't derive any enjoyment from pressing that button and putting a debuff up. Your gameplay doesn't change now that this debuff is up. I'm all for group cooldowns (ala Battle Litany), but cooldowns should be impactful and should enhance, improve, or change your gameplay.

They're not the most interesting abilities, however the classes that can apply them do get the benefits. For them, it's keeping a debuff active to improve your personal DPS. On that sort of level I think they're fine. Not outstanding abilities, but they're a core part of optimising your damage output. The fact that others can benefit is more of a bonus than the primary reason you'd want to use them.

That being said, I would like to see them replaced by more group wide cooldowns. They offer up the same kind of power as a permenant debuff, but in a way that is far more noticable and appreciable than just larger numbers if X class is in the group.

Which raiding groups were you turned away from because you played an underperforming class? What content specifically and what were you told? As someone who's never experienced or seen this, I'm curious for your actual anecdotal experience.

I've had to bench my guilds Mages during Sunwell progression. "Sunwelling" even became it's own little meme for a while, where it ment being dumped from a raid because your class was just too far behind the curve to really belong in a serious progression raid.

It was probably one of the worst conversations I've ever had. Telling your friends that they're no longer able to be a part of your raiding, despite all the skill they had, just because they were playing the wrong class at the wrong time. I still to this day feel awful for having to do it, but they were holding the 22 other people in our raid back. We passed the DPS check on Brutallus (with almost 15 seconds to spare!) our first raid without them.