[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Deleted]

Checked the logs and whatever the reason the ST is low whereas the AoE/Cleave is decent. In my humble opinion this means that the ST talents retribution has are trash and need rework/tuning/buff whereas aoe/cleave works fine. If they wanted us to pick ST talents they should simply tune these instead of messign with DH. There is nothing wrong with it that can justify a 30% nerf in damage done.
What they do now is gutting DH lowering aoe/cleave and forcing us to pick BoW without improving the output and the real reason behind not picking BoW in the first place . Hopefully that makes some sense.

[Deleted]

Just because it's better doesn't mean it's good.
And Storm, did you read the blue posts on Affliction ptr? pure ammunition for you. A great example:

We hear you all on Soul Effigy. We’re going to remove it in the next PTR patch. It’s concerning when the community sentiment towards a talent isn’t that it’s overpowered or underpowered, but that everyone is terrified they’re going to have to play that way if it becomes strong.

I really like the Soul effigy argument. There are some warlocks that like that talent (looking at forums there are more WLs defending SE than Rets who defend equality). And their statements are well in line with the responses we got.
Equality sucks?

Many players will likely not agree with this statement. Fortunately, there doesn't need to be universal or widespread agreement

We don't want to play with equality?

Great, that's why it's a talent. Choose a different talent.

definitely the same philosophy when it comes down to talent design.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Checked the logs and whatever the reason the ST is low whereas the AoE/Cleave is decent. In my humble opinion this means that the ST talents retribution has are trash and need rework/tuning/buff whereas aoe/cleave works fine. If they wanted us to pick ST talents they should simply tune these instead of messign with DH. There is nothing wrong with it that can justify a 30% nerf in damage done.
What they do now is gutting DH lowering aoe/cleave and forcing us to pick BoW without improving the output and the real reason behind not picking BoW in the first place . Hopefully that makes some sense.

IKR? It's logical, it's obvious, it's actually neat and simple, and which is why it ain't going to happen.

Cast your memory back a little bit.
Crusade nerf. How did they justify it? By saying that people are stacking and playing too much around it.

But why did they? Because Crusade was strong? Sure as sure it was strong.
But why did people not pick the other too talents? Because Crusade was too strong, or because said other talents were fething shite?
I, for one, very much think it's the latter.
Yet the solution was to nerf Crusade, not to fix the shitty ones.

If you nerf the good one and give no incentive to pick the bad ones, I'll still pick the good albeit nerfed one.
isn't it obvious?

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Just because it's better doesn't mean it's good.
And Storm, did you read the blue posts on Affliction ptr? pure ammunition for you. A great example:


I really like the Soul effigy argument. There are some warlocks that like that talent (looking at forums there are more WLs defending SE than Rets who defend equality). And their statements are well in line with the responses we got.
Equality sucks?

We don't want to play with equality?

definitely the same philosophy when it comes down to talent design.

Do you want to get me started? Because that's how you get me started

[Deleted]

Problem is Storm that few people state the obvious.
Crusade was not as strong as the nerf it got. But it still remains the only choice. Since by picking anything else u don't just remain middle of the pack but your drop even lower.
DH been strong but only because either way we are middle of the pack st and we don't want to hassle around the talents just for a minor increase. Either way even prenerf we remain middle of the pack whats the reason to gut it ?
To my amusement retribution paladins come to the defense of this choice.
Maybe some people will start saying the FV is too strong and is not working as intended and it needs gutting as well so we can return to ES as an ST talent.
Rets been spending so many years in the basement getting butchered that most of us developed Stockholm syndrome.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Problem is Storm that few people state the obvious.

The King is naked.
So fething difficult to utter, huh.

.
Rets been spending so many years in the basement getting butchered that most of us developed Stockholm syndrome.

Retribution community did not develop no Stockholm syndrom. We're settlers. We're stoic, although stupid, settlers.

It's just a community so used to begging and groveling, afraid of voicing our concerns, unable to unite under singular cause.
We are happy with leftovers. We are willing to take any punishment for any perceived transgression Retribution ever committed.

And if you, scummy little ret rat, dare voice your opinion regarding you being weak in PvP, you will be swiftly reminded of 3.0 when you did destroy PVP no less.

And if you, pathetic little ret dragonslayer, dare voice your opinion regarding you being weak in dragosnlaying, you will be swiftly reminded of your incredible(no) and overpowered(lolno) utilities, healing capabalities and numerous wonderous immunities along with plate armor.

We are divided, and we are conquered.

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This history argument never stops to amuse me to no end.

Take a look at modern politics.
Russia dares raise her head?
Quickly, let's remind everyone how USSR did threaten the whole world with nuclear war and death and suffering and GULAGs all over the Europe!
Shame! Shame! Shame!

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1.) fix shit -> nerf shit

2.) nerf shit -> nerf shit

Which one is logical and which one do you see when it comes to Retribution?
And why?

[Deleted]

Forgive me for failing to understand progress behind a nerf

[Deleted]

Honestly, that doesn't seem too bad. DH was overtuned anyway, keep in mind that ironically despite buffing BoJ by 20% (hotfix with Crusade nerf) to prevent us from using DH on ST, buffed DH was still competitive with BoW on ST.
And as much as I disliked that our mastery was useless on AoE, JU (and further DH buffs) with the 7.2 traits buffed our AoE even further, and I doubt DS was tuned around having mastery up on more than two targets. While I still want to see some ST buffs, at least this nerf turns us towards the rigth direction (unless Blizz pulls some stupid shit like buffing ES so it's viable, and immediately hotfixing it back to unusable state. Even if you dislike the talent, that nerf was random as fuck).

And the change itself shouldn't hit too hard, excluding the BotA nerf, we would lose ~6-7% of our DH damage during an entire m+ run, with the modifeid aura it's more like ~3% nerf overall, not that terrible. On ST encounters we're buffed (BoW was roughly equal to DH, now everything but DH got buffed, it's at least something).


That was never intended. And actually T19 will be nerfed for the same reason why we have six set items in the first place: in order to not fuck us for using legendaries in Tier slots. Also a lot of T19 boni got nerfed, some harder than ours (look at BM, T19 2p was nerfed by 50%).

Edit: I too believe it's gonna be tFoJ, but honestly: it would be really lame, neither Zeal nor Gr. Judge are really interesting. Tbf our talent tree is the worst of all specs in legion. Sure others are not balanced either and some are similar to Ret with mixing ST/AoE talents. But we have this shit all over the place, in addition to most talents being boring as fuck and the existence of HW...
Speaking of which... maybe the ring will give us HW? so that we can finally use our most beloved talent without gimping our damage... that would be the first legendary I wouldn't use despite it potentially being in line with our top legendaries.

Don't forget that we are losing single target damage with the tier nerf and BoJ is physical damage. TV is 40-50% of our damage. That 11k holy damage nerf is way more significant than the measly 4k physical damage buff of about 15% of our damage. This added to the change on blessing of the ashbringer, come patch day you WILL be weaker. Go on the PTR and see yourself.

As for the sets, it makes no sense. Why make us weaker on patch day? Why waste all the development time making these readjustments when they can simply flag you to just have 2 tier bonuses active at a time (prioritizing the latest). This is a nonsensical action they are taking. If they don't want us equipping stuff, then don't let us. Simple.

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Checked the logs and whatever the reason the ST is low whereas the AoE/Cleave is decent. In my humble opinion this means that the ST talents retribution has are trash and need rework/tuning/buff whereas aoe/cleave works fine. If they wanted us to pick ST talents they should simply tune these instead of messign with DH. There is nothing wrong with it that can justify a 30% nerf in damage done.
What they do now is gutting DH lowering aoe/cleave and forcing us to pick BoW without improving the output and the real reason behind not picking BoW in the first place . Hopefully that makes some sense.

And you know what's funny? The shit Retribution passive is still there to give the impression that in week one we are fine or OP candidates for a nerf.

I really need to stop thinking about this cause i am seriously disgusted with these devs since the Crusade nerf in trade of the trinket buff that left it still beeing shit. The devs don't care. Pure and simple. Their though process is: Oh people aren't doing what we want... lets nerf everything except what we want them to use. Ta dah! Solves our problem trololol!

[Sigxy]

I really need to stop thinking about this cause i am seriously disgusted with these devs since the Crusade nerf in trade of the trinket buff that left it still beeing shit. The devs don't care. Pure and simple. Their though process is: Oh people aren't doing what we want... lets nerf everything except what we want them to use. Ta dah! Solves our problem trololol!

Well, let's not forget the good old saying...

We're only letting you have fun in OUR way!

[Deleted]

Hello, just need a little help. Guild is on HC Botanist - As Ret should we be taking BoJ or DH?

[Dugna]

Hello, just need a little help. Guild is on HC Botanist - As Ret should we be taking BoJ or DH?

For every difficulty besides mythic its DH > BoW, for mythic its whatever is better simmed for in ST since AoE doesn't matter in mythic.

[Nition]

For every difficulty besides mythic its DH > BoW, for mythic its whatever is better simmed for in ST since AoE doesn't matter in mythic.

You what. That's just all kinds of wrong.

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Hello, just need a little help. Guild is on HC Botanist - As Ret should we be taking BoJ or DH?

You should be running DH for Botanist on both mythic and heroic.

Any fights where you will be cleaving you run DH. The only fights in nighthold heroic where you might consider taking BoW are krosus and trilliax.

However in mythic you take DH for all fights.

[Deleted]

Cool that's what I thought thanks

[Ryuji]

Something that bothers me is that at end-game in instances or in PvP, we essentially have around 5 - 7 dead talents, give or take.

With Final Verdict - Execution Sentence - Consecration, the usual choice is Final Verdict since it's the least clunky talent in that row. Potentially 2 dead talents in PvE, possible use maybe in PvP...maybe.

The Fires of Justice - Zeal - Greater Judgement for next row. Fires is usual choice, sometimes Zeal, and thanks to the Judge Unworthy trait, GJ is essentially useless now in PvE. It might see some use in PvP when there's a mass of enemies around...maybe, but even then, Zeal's cleaving shenanigans would likely be better in that situation. Potentially 3 dead talents so far.

Fist of Justice - Repentance - Blinding Light. These talents actually offer some choices and are used in different situations, be it PvE, PvP or even CC'ing mobs in high M+ dungeons, and even the ret mage tower challenge. 3 possible dead talents so far still.

Virtue's Blade - Blade of Wrath - Divine Hammer. Virtue's Blade is currently useless in every situation, Blade of Wrath sees some use in pure single target and often in PvP to trigger short duration hand of hindrance more often than you could with DH, and DH currently sees use in just about every situation. The nerf to DH will likely kill it for ST, and I doubt Virtue's Blade will see use with ToS and T20 set bonuses(regardless if VB can crit harder, won't help if it doesn't crit vs. the cd being reset via BoW). Potentially 4 dead talents.

Justicar's Vengeance - Eye for an Eye - Word of Glory. These talents actually see some use, though usually in the form of JV and EfaE, Word of Glory tends to see use in mythic+ if barely, vs. JV's self spot healing in both PvE and PvP or EfaE's damage reduction and excellent use against melee folks in PvP. Word of Glory super close to being barely used but will count it.

Divine Intervention - Cavalier - Judgement of Light. 2 of these talents see heavy use, those two talents being DI and Cavalier. Both are good options for both PvE and PvP though I use Cavalier most times. JoL might see use if your group doesn't have a holy or prot paladin but chances are that you have one of those two. Potentially 5 dead talents, maybe.

and then the most depressing talent tier! Divine Purpose - Crusade - Holy Wrath. DP sees use usually doing world questing and in PvP, while Crusade sees use literally anytime, anywhere. Holy Wrath is still a complete waste of a talent since the day it was implemented since alpha. In PvE, it's Crusade or bust. In PvP, DP or Crusade, YMMV.

Potentially 5-7 dead talents. Blizzard pls. Am not even including legendaries into consideration. Yes this is pretty much an opinion for some of those talents, but if the most commonly used talents on warcraftlogs are all the same, then that means a good look should be given to dead talents(Lookin' at you, Holy Wrath, Virtue's Blade and Greater Judgement).

[Reith]

It gets even worse when you look at Mythic Nighthold specifically: 10-12 dead talents. Execution Sentence and Consecration can't compete with Final Verdict, Zeal and Greater Judgment can't compete with Fires of Justice, Virtue's Blade and Blade of Wrath can't compete with Divine Hammer because there are no single target fights in there, Justicar's Vengeance is not affected by nor extends the legendary cloak buff and Word of Glory shouldn't even cost HP when it has charges as a GCD is already a pretty valuable resource, Judgment of Light is something tanks and healers already use and yours overwrites theirs not to mention it can't compete with Cavalier and Divine Intervention, Divine Purpose and Holy Wrath can't compete with Crusade. It's a fucking mess.

[Deleted]

For you Reith : "We receive a lot of negative feedback from the community but they usually are not comprehensive enough and only restrict themselves in negative criticism. In order to take the feedback in mind we would like it to be constructive instead of a list of negative comments."

Man how can one describe a big, steamy, foul pile of shit and what can be regarded as constructive criticism at that point when all that has hit the fan by going live.

[Morally Grey Storm]

It gets even worse when you look at Mythic Nighthold specifically: 10-12 dead talents. Execution Sentence and Consecration can't compete with Final Verdict, Zeal and Greater Judgment can't compete with Fires of Justice, Virtue's Blade and Blade of Wrath can't compete with Divine Hammer because there are no single target fights in there, Justicar's Vengeance is not affected by nor extends the legendary cloak buff and Word of Glory shouldn't even cost HP when it has charges as a GCD is already a pretty valuable resource, Judgment of Light is something tanks and healers already use and yours overwrites theirs not to mention it can't compete with Cavalier and Divine Intervention, Divine Purpose and Holy Wrath can't compete with Crusade. It's a fucking mess.

That's how they operate, unfortunately.

Fix shit -> nerf shit
nerf shit -> nerf shit

Previously I asked which one scheme do you see often and why in regards to Retribution.
I don't want to draw no conclusions, but there must be an explanation out there somewhere.

What a decent, polite and adequate place that is Paladin Discord server.
Good riddance I didn't overstay it's welcome.

A sliver of Discord wisdom, though was passed unto me before my timely departure.
I was told that CoF is incredibly useful, incredibly strong and fits on nearly every fight in NH.
Then I was told I was fucking retarded and got kicked.

Moral of the day: There is none. But it was fun while it lasted

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For you Reith : "We receive a lot of negative feedback from the community but they usually are not comprehensive enough and only restrict themselves in negative criticism. In order to take the feedback in mind we would like it to be constructive instead of a list of negative comments."

Man how can one describe a big, steamy, foul pile of shit and what can be regarded as constructive criticism at that point when all that has hit the fan by going live.

Hold my beer...^^

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I hereby declare "decent" my new favorite word.
It's...decent.

[Dugna]

You what. That's just all kinds of wrong.

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You should be running DH for Botanist on both mythic and heroic.

Any fights where you will be cleaving you run DH. The only fights in nighthold heroic where you might consider taking BoW are krosus and trilliax.

However in mythic you take DH for all fights.

uhh? what was wrong with what I said? DH doesn't matter as much in mythic since the cleave just doesn't matter..it literally doesn't there is soo much cleave that adds fry themselves in melee for botanist..while DH can matter in normal/heroic because they share a health pull. So unless DH does more in ST for your gear you don't need it. Again they asked about heroic BoT

[Reith]

uhh? what was wrong with what I said? DH doesn't matter as much in mythic since the cleave just doesn't matter..it literally doesn't there is soo much cleave that adds fry themselves in melee for botanist..while DH can matter in normal/heroic because they share a health pull. So unless DH does more in ST for your gear you don't need it. Again they asked about heroic BoT

Divine Hammer works better for the adds and the sun by the boss which is why it's preferable still.

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That's how they operate, unfortunately.

Fix shit -> nerf shit
nerf shit -> nerf shit

Previously I asked which one scheme do you see often and why in regards to Retribution.
I don't want to draw no conclusions, but there must be an explanation out there somewhere.

What a decent, polite and adequate place that is Paladin Discord server.
Good riddance I didn't overstay it's welcome.

A sliver of Discord wisdom, though was passed unto me before my timely departure.
I was told that CoF is incredibly useful, incredibly strong and fits on nearly every fight in NH.
Then I was told I was fucking retarded and got kicked.

Moral of the day: There is none. But it was fun while it lasted

The paladin discord server is pretty cancerous, in my experience. It's kinda like a live chat version of reddit, except way worse in memes and inside jokes and general douchebaggery attitude.

[Deleted]

Something that bothers me is that at end-game in instances or in PvP, we essentially have around 5 - 7 dead talents, give or take.

With Final Verdict - Execution Sentence - Consecration, the usual choice is Final Verdict since it's the least clunky talent in that row. Potentially 2 dead talents in PvE, possible use maybe in PvP...maybe.

The Fires of Justice - Zeal - Greater Judgement for next row. Fires is usual choice, sometimes Zeal, and thanks to the Judge Unworthy trait, GJ is essentially useless now in PvE. It might see some use in PvP when there's a mass of enemies around...maybe, but even then, Zeal's cleaving shenanigans would likely be better in that situation. Potentially 3 dead talents so far.

Fist of Justice - Repentance - Blinding Light. These talents actually offer some choices and are used in different situations, be it PvE, PvP or even CC'ing mobs in high M+ dungeons, and even the ret mage tower challenge. 3 possible dead talents so far still.

Virtue's Blade - Blade of Wrath - Divine Hammer. Virtue's Blade is currently useless in every situation, Blade of Wrath sees some use in pure single target and often in PvP to trigger short duration hand of hindrance more often than you could with DH, and DH currently sees use in just about every situation. The nerf to DH will likely kill it for ST, and I doubt Virtue's Blade will see use with ToS and T20 set bonuses(regardless if VB can crit harder, won't help if it doesn't crit vs. the cd being reset via BoW). Potentially 4 dead talents.

Justicar's Vengeance - Eye for an Eye - Word of Glory. These talents actually see some use, though usually in the form of JV and EfaE, Word of Glory tends to see use in mythic+ if barely, vs. JV's self spot healing in both PvE and PvP or EfaE's damage reduction and excellent use against melee folks in PvP. Word of Glory super close to being barely used but will count it.

Divine Intervention - Cavalier - Judgement of Light. 2 of these talents see heavy use, those two talents being DI and Cavalier. Both are good options for both PvE and PvP though I use Cavalier most times. JoL might see use if your group doesn't have a holy or prot paladin but chances are that you have one of those two. Potentially 5 dead talents, maybe.

and then the most depressing talent tier! Divine Purpose - Crusade - Holy Wrath. DP sees use usually doing world questing and in PvP, while Crusade sees use literally anytime, anywhere. Holy Wrath is still a complete waste of a talent since the day it was implemented since alpha. In PvE, it's Crusade or bust. In PvP, DP or Crusade, YMMV.

Potentially 5-7 dead talents. Blizzard pls. Am not even including legendaries into consideration. Yes this is pretty much an opinion for some of those talents, but if the most commonly used talents on warcraftlogs are all the same, then that means a good look should be given to dead talents(Lookin' at you, Holy Wrath, Virtue's Blade and Greater Judgement).

I agree and quoted for more visibility.

Though judgement of light was fixed to stack last i heard. Dunno if the fix is in but i thought it was. Still, it makes no sense in the tree. 2 mobility options versus a small aoe heal? Something like speed of light or the judgement speed boost or the passive 15% we used to have are all better options and fit the row.

World of glory could be an insanely good talent if it had a lower activation cost or none at all. But the fact that it doesn't fit the row aswell is undeniable. The other 2 options offer defensive and damage dealing options. WoG gives only defensive at the cost of alot of damage. It really isn't as strong as blizzard thinks it is.

Greater judgment needs to do more than what it does. Maybe increase the damage of the next finishers.
Blade of virtue needs to be a proc that does what it does now and 100% chance to crit.

Holy wrath... the arrogance of a dev carried over. Rather than choose a different talent, i'd rather choose a different dev. Gladly he is now gone.

Consecration is still around for no good reason but to appease some fans. Needs to go and be replaced by an aoe stunning greater divine storm with a cooldown (like uther's from heroes!).

Execution sentance needs removing/redesigning. I don't see how it can fit the current rotation in an acceptable spot. The fact that it deals it's damage after X is especially disruptive. The first iteration of this in the alpha was the best. Just a filler dot. But currently theres no need for a filler. With haste i'm sure that even running zeal would not give much dead time.

Still, despite all problems, it doesn't look like the devs are even gonna look in Ret's way for the next patch.

[Reith]

Though judgement of light was fixed to stack last i heard. Dunno if the fix is in but i thought it was. Still, it makes no sense in the tree. 2 mobility options versus a small aoe heal? Something like speed of light or the judgement speed boost or the passive 15% we used to have are all better options and fit the row.

What they need to do is have a tier entirely dedicated to movement options like it used to fricken be. It makes no sense to have Divine Intervention compete with Cavalier or Judgment of Light. What the hell were they thinking?

World of glory could be an insanely good talent if it had a lower activation cost or none at all. But the fact that it doesn't fit the row aswell is undeniable. The other 2 options offer defensive and damage dealing options. WoG gives only defensive at the cost of alot of damage. It really isn't as strong as blizzard thinks it is.

If it costed no Holy Power and was off the GCD I might actually consider it. It would be useful for some fights then and being off the GCD does make it more powerful, but Eye for an Eye is still good for oh shit moments with adds and as a defensive cooldown for physical damage abilities. Justicar's Vengeance, though, has no real use in raiding, at all.

Greater judgment needs to do more than what it does. Maybe increase the damage of the next finishers.

It definitely needs some kind of change, but don't expect Blizzard to actually do anything about it.

Blade of virtue needs to be a proc that does what it does now and 100% chance to crit.

I don't even know what to do with Blade of Virtue, really. It's just so boring. Something completely new would be better.

Still, despite all problems, it doesn't look like the devs are even gonna look in Ret's way for the next patch.

Nah, Warlocks need all the attention with Soul Effigy changes. /rolleyes