Ghostcrawler - Loot Should Not Be "too Predictible"

[Jaylock]

In a recent post by Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street, he said the following about Loot:

it’s important for random dropped loot in WoW, or any game that has it, to feel exciting. When the loot starts to be too predictable, it can feel good in the short term to have more control over its acquisition, but in the long run the game can just feel more like a treadmill and the exciting moments of opening the mystery gift box just don’t land any longer.

I bolded and underlined for emphasis.

I agree with Greg here, RNG in the loot game needs to be in the game. If everything were predictable, gearing up doesn't feel exciting anymore.

Think about how you currently gear up an alt. Grinding nethershards is an absolute predictable way to gear up. You grind 400 shards, you can buy an 850 piece. You grind 5k shards, you can get an 880 piece. Boring.

If dungeons only dropped honor / valor tokens, and you used them to just buy gear you wanted from vendors... Boring.

RNG has its place in MMOs, and it should absolutely stay. Anyone who thinks otherwise, please present a logical argument for why it shouldn't be a part of an MMO, especially one like WoW.

[Beardedfreak]

RNG is a bullshit mechanic. Enough said, killing the same raid boss for several years for some mount gets boring.

[jackofwind]

People who never raided enough to normalise the RNG of a system like Vanilla had are usually the people who complain that it wasn't fun, and was unfair, because they never managed to get a piece of loot they wanted.

It's the same issue that gets brought up with Legendaries being RNG-based as opposed to being something that gets worked towards. No matter how you cut it and why you might like the new system, Legendaries simply don't have the wow factor they used to.

RNG might not be a fair system, but it is the most dynamic and the best for a game of this kind. Imagine if in D2 you just got whatever unique item you wanted for your build because you did X number of Baal runs. It doesn't make you want to keep playing for that next chance at something - there's no "just one more turn" factor.

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RNG is a bullshit mechanic

Everything in WoW is some variation of RNG. RNG for loot is what makes it exciting.

[Aggrophobic]

Some RNG, sure.
The amount thats in WoW right now? No, thats just bad design.

[Jaylock]

RNG is a bullshit mechanic. Enough said, killing the same raid boss for several years for some mount gets boring.

Wrong.

Its an exciting mechanic because when I see something rare drop it adds excitement to the game. If something titanforges up to 925 when you were only expecting an 890 to drop, that is fun. Its cool to see gear 35 ilvls higher than what you were expecting because of the RNG.

If dungeons were just dropping tokens to use in exchange for gear, i would quit this game because the intrigue and excitement would be gone.

[girltoy26]

I'll tell you why it doesn't belong; balance. RNG does belong in some capacity but warforge/titanforge presents an issue of RNG on top of RNG. It's challenging to properly balance raids around warforge/titanforge, especially when top guilds split run Mythic content for greater chances at said titanforge/warforge. This creates an imbalance with everyone else who doesn't do this and gives huge advantage to those who do. This in turn makes it difficult for Blizzard because if they balance around the majority (who aren't split running and doing crazy stuff to increase their chances at gear) then the content is simply too easy for those at the top and they complain that "things are boring". If they balance around those at the top then those in the middle are essentially screwed until Blizzard decides to nerf content (which invariably happens every tier).

The solution would be to limit how many levels something can warforge/titanforge but that likely goes against Blizzard's goal of pandering to gamblers/addictive personalities. They want players to keep running the same content over and over again for that chance at winning the lottery. Active users/time played is a measurable goal for their shareholders and something they can tout on quarterly earnings calls.

[Lucifer Morningstar]

RNG is a bullshit mechanic. Enough said, killing the same raid boss for several years for some mount gets boring.

Chance to get it on 1st kill, and then a guaranteed after 100 kills (example) is reasonable.
I don't see why this isn't a thing for mounts at least.

[Jaylock]

Some RNG, sure.
The amount thats in WoW right now? No, thats just bad design.

You only perceive it to be a bad thing because you have set your expectations to levels you shouldn't.

Why do you think its 100% REQUIRED to have the 2 best in slot legendary items?

In previous expansion, getting BIS was far more difficult than it is in the game now. There are MULTIPLE sources to get BIS gear because of how gear works now from Raids to Mythic+ dungeons. The only real RNG the game has now is the legendary system, and even that can be looked as a bonus to existing gear, not a requirement for gearing.

[Deleted]

I agree rng is needed but the amounts have to be regulated, Jay. 'Good' RNG is that a certain item drops from a certain source and you know where to look for it.
I'd consider titanforged, socket and tertiary good RNG if it sped up the gearing process, but since you can't upgrade the items on your own (as you did with valor points) it kinda sucks, because the only way to get it is not being fucked by a roll of the dice.

Think about it like this: say, you could get up to 1k whatever-sounds-the-most-epeen points and you could upgrade an item by 1 titanforge level (5 ilvls) for 500 or get a socket for, say, 750. RNG would speed it up, and you could get an upgrade by doing the content but you'd have a visible goal in sight that would take long enough for you to stay subbed all the time anyway. I doubt blizz would lose money this way, but I'm no expert.

Not to mention titanforging left people so accustomed to seeing it often that when the base version of the item drops it is considered shit, or at very least extremely unlucky.

[HuxNeva]

You beat bosses either by getting better or by getting better gear. Part of the player-base is going 'ain't nobody got time for that' on the former and acting like a toddler trowing a tantrum on the Walmart floor because "he wants his icecream NOW" on the latter.
RNG is good, but in the extreme the raid viability of a class/spec shouldn't depend on getting a specific legendary.

[Darkeon]

RNG has a place in the game.

RNG over RNG, over RNG, however, does not and is merely a tool to deliberately and a non customer-friendly manner of artificially extend the longevity of current content.

[Daedius]

RNG throughout past expansions and original, prior to Legion, was fine... Legion's absurd amounts I draw the line... the thick extra layering of RNG in Legion is nothing but an obvious ploy to keep players playing as much and as long as possible, and is nothing short of disgusting.

As it is, for allowing gear to proc up to ilvl cap (should've NEVER allowed it beyond +5/10 for WF/TF from base ilvl)... it just compels people to farm out all difficulties for that chance, and/or to get another legendary. My guild does that, I opt out of it... I have zero desire to do that... while in the past we just did the highest difficulty and leave it at that.

Talk about an expansion encouraging burn out...

[clevin]

So, let's talk just gear (vs mounts etc)...

RNG is fine when the gear is mostly the same power level for its slot. Then the RNG is simple - will I get a drop off this boss or not? For bosses who had multiple pieces it might be compounded by 'will I get the piece I want, another one that I can use or nothing?'

Then, starting in LK, they added forging. Now we have WF and TF so it's "will I get something? Something WF? TF?" If you get the regular version it's a bit of a letdown because it's not WF/TF.

Then there a legendaries that vary widely in power.

Then for some classes there's RNG on spells. For example, my Destro lock's Chaos Bolt benefits from mastery randomly, from adding nothing up to adding the full bonus of my mastery. Oh and my shards, the resource that lets' me CAST CB, generates randomly.

THEN... WQ gear can TF and become as powerful as some mythic gear. I *still* use a WQ helm because it TFed to 880 and I've had nothing else better drop.

[Jtbrig7390]

Too much RNG is a bad thing, It is no longer exciting when u get loot its a relief.

I wasn't excited when I got my Corrupt Ashbringer skin, I was relieved that I didn't have to fish anymore or camp a shitty mob.

When the reward goes from excited to relief then the system you have is bad.

[Bullettime]

RNG is fine. Things like warforging, sockets, and tertiary stats were fine.

RNG drop chance coupled with RNG bonuses that have RNG increases per bonus is when it starts getting fucking ridiculous. Then RNG legendaries with huge power variance adds a cherry to the top.

It's not as bad in a game like Diablo where the whole reward structure is designed with heavy layers of RNG and allows for permagrinding as long as your time allows. It sucks in an MMO that has daily/weekly lockouts and such along with other things that need to be done aside from grinding m+.

[Halicia]

For a game like WoW, you want a balance between RNG rewards to give you that "surprise thrill", but you also want a baseline security against "not being able to catch up because nothing but int plate keeps dropping for your prot pally".

For singleplayer games, or games with a shorter intended shelf life... you can rely more heavily on RNG 'fun' because you can tailor that person's experience solely for themselves, and not presume that they need to catch up to others.

[Plutarch78]

Some RNG, sure.
The amount thats in WoW right now? No, thats just bad design.

Right. There has to be a balance. In BC and WotLK if you weren't getting the drops you needed you accumulated badges and emblems that were used to purchase gear as a way to alleviate bad luck drops. A far better system then the extra loot rolls if you ask me.

[Deleted]

Don't like RNG? Wrong game dude bb

RNG is there since day 1 of Vanilla, only problem is that people wanted "All now and easy" and therefore they added a "farming" mechanics that is WF/TF/SOCKET/Legendary, so congratuwelldone Wow community

[Shanko]

In previous expansion, getting BIS was far more difficult than it is in the game now. There are MULTIPLE sources to get BIS gear because of how gear works now from Raids to Mythic+ dungeons. The only real RNG the game has now is the legendary system, and even that can be looked as a bonus to existing gear, not a requirement for gearing.

Nice try shill, games a RNG abomination that is only "slightly better" than WoD. Even though I never unsubbed/uninstalled in WoD...

Ghostcrawler is just trying to take the high road by not throwing his former-peers under the bus for their garbage decisions with regards to game design.

[Kralljin]

A far better system then the extra loot rolls if you ask me.

I don't think Bonus rolls are the issue.

It's the Titanforged (And to a certain degree, Legendary) System.

Even if you're a Mythic raider, the "standard" loot for you is 15-25 Ilvl off the highest possible Ilvl, that is too much in my view.

Compare that to the 6 Ilvl of MoP and WoD.

It just pisses me off beyond anything that despite clearing the most difficult content in the game yields loot that is so much worse than the best possible version.


Honestly, for Mythic raid loot a 5 - 10 Ilvl proc is fine, anything beyond makes Diablo comparisons sadly very fitting due the gap of power between those items.