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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulika View Post
    You're right, I didnt account for ghoul damage. Again picking a random fight (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=10) of exactly five minutes we see Army of the Dead being 6.5% of damage. That fight had 4 Apocalypse casts (since its a top 100 parse lets assume he summoned 6 ghouls each time).

    So we have 8 * 35 seconds = 280 seconds of ghoul uptime from AotD (assuming it was precast and he didnt get full duration) and 4 * 6 * 15 = 360 seconds of ghoul uptime from Apocalypse.

    So a total of 640 seconds of ghoul uptime = 6.5% of damage. For easy rounding we can say each 10 seconds of ghoul uptime adds 0.1% to total damage. Since a lot of that uptime is during heroism probably a number like 12 seconds of ghoul uptime later in the fight to add 0.1% is more reasonable. One extra Army of the Dead in the duration would be 2.7% extra damage, two would be 5.4% total damage (on top of the 5.5% I estimated earlier) which is quite a lot.

    The final thing I didn't take account of is the rune cost. Spending 9 runes on Army of the Dead (I'm guessing it won't be precast since you would waste half the damage increase) would mean (on that parse) losing about 10% of his clawing shadow damage and presumably about 10% of the festering wounds damage too at a total cost of 3% damage lost.

    So we end up with 5.5% increase from previous estimate plus 5.4% for ghouls minus 3% for the runes you lose out on for a total of about 7.9% increased damage.

    At this point the big question is how quick you can recast AotD with the set bonus. If the timing of the fight works out such that you could cast it 3 times in that fight it would be pretty strong, if you can only get off one extra cast after the initial the value would drop quite substantially to more like 5%.

    That would mean the you would probably see which was the stronger tier bonus vary based on fight length. If the fight is just the right length to squeeze in an extra army the Unholy would be stronger, if the fight was just the wrong length of time to do that then Frost would be stronger.

    The two tier bonuses look (from my admittedly very error prone and very likely to have missed something perspective) to be reasonably close. Which ends up the stronger spec overall will probably come down to which is the stronger spec without the tier bonuses.

    I'd be wary of anyone claiming one spec or the other will win out though. I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers how certain everyone was that Unholy was going to be the stronger spec going into Nighthold (and the various "this is the death of frost" posts quite similar to those we see now) after the last round of class balances and even months later after some hotfix buffs its still lagging behind by an appreciable amount. It's fun to guess and speculate but nobody knows at this point.

    P.S. Just for reference, based on running two sims one swapping out Dreadwyrm Crown for an equal ilvl Eventide Casque and thus keeping very much the same stats but losing the 4 piece bonus the current 4 piece bonus is worth about 3.8% increased damage to Unholy so the numbers above would put the set pretty much in line with the current set for power.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spamor View Post
    Just tested the t20 on the ptr:

    - The buff triggers when the ghoul is summoned
    - Works with Apo 18sec dmg buff.
    - So the duration of the buff is 6sec, 11 sec, 16sec, 20 sec on AotD
    - CD of AotD is about 2:30min (low haste gear) with the set
    when i made my initial post it was based on this, however i forgot to mention it last night as well. APOC gives the 15% bonus as well which you didn't include

  2. #62
    I'm more interested in how this set bonus will affect our rotation, and whether it affects our choice of legendaries. With army being cast so often I can easily see shoulders pulling ahead, coupled with shadow infusion (because of the buff).

    Con of shoulders: Lose out on 2pc T19.

  3. #63
    having this shit proc work on apoc as well definitely makes a difference. pretty excited about this.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by garonne View Post
    when i made my initial post it was based on this, however i forgot to mention it last night as well. APOC gives the 15% bonus as well which you didn't include
    If that the case our hypothetical 2 piece in our 5 minute fight (3 Apoc casts) gives a 15% flat damage increase for an extra 40% of the fight give or take which would be about 6% overall making the set bonus very strong indeed for Unholy at 10-15% overall damage increased for the combined 2 and 4 piece bonuses.

    What would be interesting is if anyone has any numbers for how much a typical set gives beyond the stats on the items themselves. What is typical, what is strong?

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    Well frost was always stronger than assumed. The problem was the fixation on machinegun spec while breatj was already really strong.

    I dont see that hidden potential for unholy. But i am sure unholy is stronger than it looks on warcraftlogs.
    It is the reason Frost is so far away from UH is because theres a ratio of 8 to 1 frost dks, all the good players are playing frost making the logs look that way pendind for frost, also frost can keep their burst windows for a little bit longer than UH increasin the chance they end up the fight with higher dps . Not saying UH is fine right now it really needs buffs but its not as bad as ppl think.
    Last edited by Kendros; 2017-05-12 at 04:22 AM.

  6. #66
    A note about the Death Coil "buff".
    Just like Shadow Infusions buff, it was to counteract casting less death coils overall. So the effect is less than it looks.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Kendros View Post
    It is the reason Frost is so far away from UH is because theres a ratio of 8 to 1 frost dks, all the good players are playing frost making the logs look that way pendind for frost, also frost can keep their burst windows for a little bit longer than UH increasin the chance they end up the fight with higher dps . Not saying UH is amazing fine but its not as bad as ppl think.
    I could just as easily claim that all the unskilled DKs rerolled Frost for an easier time and that the only reason the gap isn't a lot bigger is because only the really skilled Unholy DKs stuck with the spec.

    Without supporting evidence there is no reason to suppose that either theory is true.

    Far more likely is that if you have someone who can play one spec well with a bit of practice they can play the other spec at about the same level.
    Last edited by Sulika; 2017-05-12 at 12:35 AM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulika View Post
    I could just as easily claim that all the unskilled DKs rerolled Frost for an easier time and that the only reason the gap isn't a lot bigger is because only the really skilled Unholy DKs stuck with the spec.

    Without supporting evidence there is no reason to suppose that either theory is true.

    Far more likely is that if you have someone who can play one spec well with a bit of practice they can play the other spec at about the same level.
    Not really high ending raiders will always switch to the spec that performs better for an easier time progressing. Could be a 3% difference between both specs and ppl will still do that. Not to metion high end guilds that wont take an UH over a frost one.

  9. #69
    Stood in the Fire Cerunnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sulika View Post
    If that the case our hypothetical 2 piece in our 5 minute fight (3 Apoc casts) gives a 15% flat damage increase for an extra 40% of the fight give or take which would be about 6% overall making the set bonus very strong indeed for Unholy at 10-15% overall damage increased for the combined 2 and 4 piece bonuses.

    What would be interesting is if anyone has any numbers for how much a typical set gives beyond the stats on the items themselves. What is typical, what is strong?
    On a 5 min fight it would be 4 apoc casts and 3 armies roughly, which is 144 seconds out of 300 seconds, so about 48% uptime on 15% damage.
    Cerunnir - Frost/Blood Death Knight

  10. #70
    Just tried the UH on ptr with the new sets and stuffs.

    Damage seems pretty good on overall (still i don't know if the leg. shoulders will have a comeback) anyway what is concerning me A LOT is the ABSOLUTE lack of RUNES...yeah the spec feels so low with many times you haven't a single button to press...

    That's because the nerf of runic corruption proc AND the increased costs of Death Coils mean that the spec now is MUCH MUCH slower.

    Paired with the lost of the 2 Pc of the T19 bonus and (i think) the switch from Uvanimor to other leg that bring a grim sight for our spec...

    The dps is fine but i feel the spec incredibly slower...

    Someone has noticed these issues too?

  11. #71
    Deleted
    The spec being slower is a good thing. It means you can actually time your abilities (maximize SS usage when SotW is up etc.) to gain the maximum dps. It also means that not having CS is less punishing on movement heavy fights.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by burk23 View Post
    The spec being slower is a good thing. It means you can actually time your abilities (maximize SS usage when SotW is up etc.) to gain the maximum dps. It also means that not having CS is less punishing on movement heavy fights.
    not really. you have the same time as before for think...and lot less resources. every seconds lost without pressing anything is an absurd waste of dps for UH cause all the abilities are istant cast...
    for example the DOS trinket (3 seconds uptime) is good when you have low runes...you have 3 sec to think and to regen runes...

    virulent plague has become a very expensive talent/dot to keep up too...one rune every 5.7 second..
    Last edited by nicola87; 2017-05-12 at 12:51 PM.

  13. #73

  14. #74
    Stood in the Fire Cerunnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicola87 View Post
    not really. you have the same time as before for think...and lot less resources. every seconds lost without pressing anything is an absurd waste of dps for UH cause all the abilities are istant cast...
    for example the DOS trinket (3 seconds uptime) is good when you have low runes...you have 3 sec to think and to regen runes...

    virulent plague has become a very expensive talent/dot to keep up too...one rune every 5.7 second..
    5,7 seconds? I reapply VP around every 15+ seconds. Also, thats not how doing DPS works. We have a set amount of resources available to us, and its our job to use it the most efficiently for max DPS. Slower abilities that hit harder, do just as much DPS as lots of fast abilities that does lower damage.

    There are several classes that work like this, that have burst windows and downtime.
    Cerunnir - Frost/Blood Death Knight

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxweii View Post
    If you're reapplying VP every 5.7 seconds you're doing something very wrong.
    You missed the point of the whole discussion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerunnir View Post
    5,7 seconds? I reapply VP around every 15+ seconds. Also, thats not how doing DPS works. We have a set amount of resources available to us, and its our job to use it the most efficiently for max DPS. Slower abilities that hit harder, do just as much DPS as lots of fast abilities that does lower damage.

    There are several classes that work like this, that have burst windows and downtime.
    In a 100% rNG spec there is no "burts windows" or "downtime" predictable;
    Also atm i have not a single second wasted in my rotation. Try the ptr and you will find much more dead times with the same rotation.

    That means we must change our prospective? i don't think so. The nerf of DC and RC cannot be handled by skill.
    Last edited by nicola87; 2017-05-12 at 02:09 PM.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicola87 View Post
    You missed the point of the whole discussion.

    - - - Updated - - -



    In a 100% rNG spec there is no "burts windows" or "downtime" predictable;
    Also atm i have not a single second wasted in my rotation. Try the ptr and you will find much more dead times with the same rotation.

    That means we must change our prospective? i don't think so. The nerf of DC and RC cannot be handled by skill.
    But its still a buff to our damage, even with lots of downtime.

    In times of resource starvation, I would just slow down my rotation. I would give it a pause, think ahead and plan how to get the most out of what I got, while considering the potentials of each ability like procing runic corruption.
    Last edited by Cerunnir; 2017-05-12 at 02:38 PM.
    Cerunnir - Frost/Blood Death Knight

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerunnir View Post
    But its still a buff to our damage, even with lots of downtime.

    In times of resource starvation, I would just slow down my rotation. I would give it a pause, think ahead and plan how to get the most out of what I got, while considering the potentials of each ability like procing runic corruption.
    in a BL scenario this is absolutely impossible.

    and i don't like the way blizzard is "buffing our spec" adding more damage to spell but slowing our rotation.

    Still hoping in a last minute fix of festering strike with fixed wounds so we can cut some rng from the spec
    Last edited by nicola87; 2017-05-12 at 03:16 PM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by nicola87 View Post
    You missed the point of the whole discussion.
    If the point was that it's expensive to use, then you were overselling it with pretty much saying we have to apply it triple the amount we actually do.

    Also, the RC nerf from 7.1.5 and the cost increase of 7.2.5 work together. We will be back at a higher chance per DC cast to proc RC, just less overall DC's cast. Which was and is entirely needed for the spec.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxweii View Post
    If the point was that it's expensive to use, then you were overselling it with pretty much saying we have to apply it triple the amount we actually do.

    Also, the RC nerf from 7.1.5 and the cost increase of 7.2.5 work together. We will be back at a higher chance per DC cast to proc RC, just less overall DC's cast. Which was and is entirely needed for the spec.
    i have found the spec a lot slower with the same stats of live in PTR..the rotation is the same but the overall use of the runes is totally unfair.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by nicola87 View Post
    not really. you have the same time as before for think...and lot less resources. every seconds lost without pressing anything is an absurd waste of dps for UH cause all the abilities are istant cast...
    for example the DOS trinket (3 seconds uptime) is good when you have low runes...you have 3 sec to think and to regen runes...

    virulent plague has become a very expensive talent/dot to keep up too...one rune every 5.7 second..
    Currently our DPS is capped by how fast we can get rid of our resources (in the right order, obviously). Come next patch our DPS is locked by how efficiently we use our resources.

    I much prefer being rewarded for planning how i spend my resources, than mashing everything that glows.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by nicola87 View Post
    in a BL scenario this is absolutely impossible.

    and i don't like the way blizzard is "buffing our spec" adding more damage to spell but slowing our rotation.

    Still hoping in a last minute fix of festering strike with fixed wounds so we can cut some rng from the spec
    What? So first you're saying the spec is slow, now you're saying that planning ahead during bloodlust is impossible because (I assume you mean) things get fast?

    So it's working like every other class that isn't a mindless button masher? Perfect.

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