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  1. #21
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylar Hao View Post
    This is not a thread to discuss where the actual talent system or the former one is better, I prefer the actual one, but that's just my humble opinion. The idea behind the actual one was so that player could get rid of cookie cutter builds and pick whatever style or talent they liked and the difference would be minimal. It's not.

    For the classes I currently play (feral, destro and havoc), there's an optimal talent build for each boss, and a "generic" talent build that's best in all situations, anything else just doesn't work. For example, I welcomed very much that Savage Roar became a talent because I hated it with passion, but then, it's the optimal talent in the raw for literally every situation, King of the Jungle barely has little use in pve, only for very bursting needed moments, and Soul of the Forest has literally no use. The difference is HUGE between them. In other cases, in the same talent raw there's a single target talent, a cleave talent and an aoe talent... requiring to change according the situation...

    So... what happened to that philosophy of pick whatever you want? I can understand a difference in performace between talents in the same raw of 5%, that's acceptable because perfect balance is pretty much impossible to achieve, but with differences way bigger than that, there's is no real choice, you just have to pick the right one or underperform.

    But to get things worse, now we have legendaries that grant a talent to be unlocked for you...

    So what's the point of talents? What direction do you think they are heading to regarding talents? Do you expect the current 3-talents per row will last seeing that artifact have a built-in old talent tree inside? Will we go back to the old talents were you could build hybrid? Or will we lose talents entirely?
    "Pick whatever you want" does not need to mean - should not mean - it never matters what you pick. There would be no point to talent trees if none of your choices mattered. I haven't played every spec, but the ones I do play offer real choices with real pros and cons. My tanks can spec for more self heals, more health, or more cooldowns. All my toons can spec for more AoE or more single-target, more movement bursts or other utility abilities. We can adapt to the fight, to other members of our group, and to our legenday/trinket/tier combinations.

    They will always be tweaking, but I think the current talent system is about as good as it's been.

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  2. #22
    As I see, talent trees are now purely about players' experience. You can pick all passives and turn your class into no brain one button style machine. Or you can pick some active abilities and have more control over your character. Almost every row is something like: 1) Passive, good for PVP/outdoor 2) Passive, good for PVE 3) Active ability/sometimes 3rd passive.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  3. #23
    Immortal Raugnaut's Avatar
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    For talent trees, there are many ways to do them. I would like to allude to the path trees of Path of Exile - Huge, many choices, you can make pratically any build you want. Yes, there is a good deal of min/maxing to be had, but its still fun.

    Overall, its just nice to get something shiny every lvl, with some extras via quests ect, especially when it has an impact on your character power regardless of your gear lvl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  4. #24
    Talent trees are just a relic from the past that they've kept on life support. Back in the day when it took forever to level, it felt good to have something new to look forward to in the short term. We don't really need that now. They should just bake any abilities that they want us to have into our class. If they are afraid of bloat, just have the active abilities that were on the same tier share a cool down.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    As I see, talent trees are now purely about players' experience. You can pick all passives and turn your class into no brain one button style machine. Or you can pick some active abilities and have more control over your character. Almost every row is something like: 1) Passive, good for PVP/outdoor 2) Passive, good for PVE 3) Active ability/sometimes 3rd passive.
    I am waiting for that ONE button Spec/Class. Not two or three buttons, that one button that makes it in the top ten on dps meters.

    Back on point. Just like the old talent trees, Blizzard can not balance 3 talents per row. Then they want to "TRY" to fix them mid-expansion like with certain specs, or we get the "We will fix it in the next expansion"

  6. #26
    Yeah, like others have said, this expansion does a good job of offering you the illusion of choice when there really isn't any. In a way though, imagine how many specs/classes there are, then imagine having multiple play-styles for each, all of which have to be balanced. This was going to end up a nightmare eventually. But some of the artifact weapons actually just force the point, like my S.O.'s. Breath of Sindragosa is now unavoidable. The talents literally force you into it, where they didn't before.

  7. #27
    Stood in the Fire Cerunnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utigarde View Post
    The illusion of choice.
    Its not an illusion. But players tend to figure out the max DPS setup and go with that regardless. However there are plenty of players who dont care about max DPS, and pick whatever feels right for them.

    Even if you personally dont feel like there is a choise, dont remove the fact that you CAN chose something else.
    Cerunnir - Frost/Blood Death Knight

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    As I see, talent trees are now purely about players' experience. You can pick all passives and turn your class into no brain one button style machine. Or you can pick some active abilities and have more control over your character. Almost every row is something like: 1) Passive, good for PVP/outdoor 2) Passive, good for PVE 3) Active ability/sometimes 3rd passive.
    That's kind of what talent trees have always been intended to be about, allowing you to customize your character in a way that suits your play-style better to distinguish you from other players who play the same class and spec. There's a reason you need to be in a rested area or use a consumable to change talents, it's the next best thing to applying an outright cool-down to it.

    Imagine if you could only change talents once per week, then you would really need to stick to whatever you choose. Although I'm sure the forums would claim that to be the end of the world as they would be "forced" to kill bosses in a specific order, ordering everyone to first pick single-target talents and kill those bosses, then switch to AoE talents and kill those bosses, claiming it's "impossible" to run dungeons or something. Sigh...

  9. #29
    You can never have equally good talents. There are talents better for single target, aoe, cleave, burst dps, rampup dps, easy to master but providing less max dps, hard to master but providing more max dps but on average will provide about the same, there's just too much variety.

    Accept it, there is no way you can have true balance between talents, because they are just too different. Only way to have to balance between them would be if one was "You do 10% more single target damage" and the other be "You do 5% more aoe damage". But then people would still complain, because the current raid has more bosses that have more than 2 targets to hit, so the 5% aoe damage would be the go-to.

    Just can't have balance.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylar Hao View Post
    So... what happened to that philosophy of pick whatever you want? I can understand a difference in performace between talents in the same raw of 5%, that's acceptable because perfect balance is pretty much impossible to achieve, but with differences way bigger than that, there's is no real choice, you just have to pick the right one or underperform.
    I think the issue here is there was never an option of choice, the new system just enables the player to click less buttons when changing talent build to fit a situation / boss fight. With the old x/x/x trees you would literally have 1, maximum 2 options in terms of talent choices, and generally you would only change talents around to go and PvE.

    All in all the new system is equally as cookie cutter, just with way less effort to actually change specs, you literally click 1 button instead of removing 20'ish talents and reallocating them into others. I'm more of a fan of the new system regardless, I find myself changing 2-4 talents over on a VERY regular basis on my Paladin, sometimes between boss fights, world questing and of course, PvP with minimal effort.

    Also there's various builds in the game which are actually VERY similar DPS and are essentially optional on most encounters, Element for example has a good balance between talent builds with similar DPS, giving the player actual choice.

  11. #31
    I see that some people are commenting "Illusion of choice", nope. It's not illusion of choice, if you think it is then you are not playing this game right.
    For leveling characters - it feels like a progression in your abilities, you learn something and you become stronger.
    For people who are doing max level content - I'm not sure about your class but mine can change talents either for AoE or ST fights. Damn, I could even change talents between M+ and WQuests.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    I see that some people are commenting "Illusion of choice", nope. It's not illusion of choice, if you think it is then you are not playing this game right.
    For leveling characters - it feels like a progression in your abilities, you learn something and you become stronger.
    For people who are doing max level content - I'm not sure about your class but mine can change talents either for AoE or ST fights. Damn, I could even change talents between M+ and WQuests.
    But the choice is still made for you, there's always a best answer regardless if you're running M+, world quests, require additional single-target or AoE, the best choice is to them the only choice, therefore it's not a choice hence an illusion of a choice.

    A min-maxer never has a choice in anything ever, as they will always go with whatever is strongest, possibly even rerolling classes to play whichever performs the strongest.

    I actively work against this mind-set, because it takes all the fun out of the game, and it's even made me enjoy other games less that aren't even MMO's, in stuff as silly as Terraria I've felt the need to min-max everything because otherwise I'm not being efficient. Ghaah...

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasparde View Post
    Talents are one of the last bastions of RPG in this game... sadly imo, because I really wish they'd just get rid of them.
    This is the most depressing answer in this thread. MMORPG player wanting to remove one of the last RPG elemets in MMORPG.
    Btw talent trees were fun for one, it was really satisfying to ding and choose a new talent or create a new fun build for PVP.

  14. #34
    Stood in the Fire Cerunnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by By the Emperor View Post
    But the choice is still made for you, there's always a best answer regardless if you're running M+, world quests, require additional single-target or AoE, the best choice is to them the only choice, therefore it's not a choice hence an illusion of a choice.

    A min-maxer never has a choice in anything ever, as they will always go with whatever is strongest, possibly even rerolling classes to play whichever performs the strongest.

    I actively work against this mind-set, because it takes all the fun out of the game, and it's even made me enjoy other games less that aren't even MMO's, in stuff as silly as Terraria I've felt the need to min-max everything because otherwise I'm not being efficient. Ghaah...
    This is interesting, since im the opposite and min-maxing is the most fun part of this game. Simulation my character, figuring out the best comboes for each situationa and gearing up in the best possible way. If they removed the abilty to min-max by for example hiding the stats or obscuring the effects of talents and abilities, it would be the best possible way to get me to unsubscribe.
    Cerunnir - Frost/Blood Death Knight

  15. #35
    Deleted
    Every talent tree ends up getting maximized and cookie cutter builds emerge. Every.single.one


    Its why the old talent tree was better, it at least gave people the impression that they were building and molding their characters to their liking. They were given a choice often in how to build their character. The end game resulted in cookie cutter builds, but that is no different than today. Except today, you get no sense of building your character. Its just and action game where you pick stuff, there is no commitment or thought put into it, the same problem exists in Diablo 3. The idea of changing talents between bosses is a disgrace to RPGs in general.


    The Cata/D3 "talent tree" is one of the biggest mistakes they made it in the game. Because the illusion of choice has been drastically reduced, for no benefit, as the end result will always be the same. Its a disgrace that i get more options in FIFA and NBA 2k how to build my character, than World of Warcraft, the premiere MMORPG

  16. #36
    The real question is what is the point of the Weapon Skill Tree? You always have to max it, they mean shit, can be something like 10% more mana regen and then that class gets nerfed by 10% meaning you put in 4 points for jack shit, etc etc

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerunnir View Post
    Its not an illusion. But players tend to figure out the max DPS setup and go with that regardless. However there are plenty of players who dont care about max DPS, and pick whatever feels right for them.

    Even if you personally dont feel like there is a choise, dont remove the fact that you CAN chose something else.
    No, it's exactly what illusion means in this case. You meet a choice because you expect a certain result.
    For raiders that means you meet a choice and expect the maximum possible DPS for the encounter and your gear. This data gives you the talent you have to choose to achieve this goal, there is no choice.

    Even if you feel like there is a choice, don't remove the fact that only ONE choice will have the result I personally expect.

  18. #38
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerunnir View Post
    Its not an illusion. But players tend to figure out the max DPS setup and go with that regardless. However there are plenty of players who dont care about max DPS, and pick whatever feels right for them.

    Even if you personally dont feel like there is a choise, dont remove the fact that you CAN chose something else.
    Basically this guy get it.

    For the min/maxers, there WILL BE ALWAYS a best talent setup, even if all world game-designer are locked into a room in order to create the best talent system ever. If you have a choice, there will always be a BEST choice for a X occasion, even if this mean a 0.01% difference in performance.

    But, like he also said, a lot, or better, the LARGE majority of players, are "casual" and pick the talent they like or it fit most with his skills or ability.

  19. #39
    i don't care about cookie cutter builds i just like having the option to further customize how i play my character.
    I had fun once, it was terrible.

  20. #40
    Mechagnome Mitak's Avatar
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    The actual reason for the talent change was so that Blizzard has less trouble balancing and updating it with each expansion.
    I personally liked the old one purely as it felt more "rpg"- like. I see no use of the new one, i change my talents each time the way i like. What is the point of having it at all if i can make changes on the fly. I loose class (spec) identity with the new system as apparently i am a godlike creature that can change fighting styles and learn new tricks (and forget old) between each pull. Blizzard might as remove the talent trees altogether and give us all skills so we use the ones we need for the fight we have without wasting the 10 seconds between fights to just respect.
    The truth may be out there, but the lies are inside your head.

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