IS this the MMO to be played right now?

[Faroth]

I don't know what set that is, but if its one I like I don't want it ruined by seeing a banana that I never saw before. LOL.

Tier 1 from Molten Core. The paladin set I not sure anyone likes, hence the joke.

Hmm.. That might just be a little too far towards Second Life for me haha.

For me, Second Life is conceptually what MMORPGs started out as. Creating a character in a fantasy world was about more than just kill x, get loot y as there were mysteries to unravel, places to explore, people to talk to, things to see in town, and a life to carve out. Like you say, though, if the systems are robust, you probably won't have (many) players who are top raiders/top crafters/top gatherers just because it takes time to do all that. I'd also throw out the diplomacy system Vanguard was looking to build as another avenue of character development, even though it was done as a card game system, it was a neat idea to add to an MMO.

I think that'd be cool. I like the idea of say you, me and Granyala just grabbing random quests in a 3 star zone from other players to adventure out and explore and protect them. That to me just sounds like so much fun to have. Bonus points if the requester wants to go somewhere exotic and dangerous we've never been before!

It does sound like a fun way to pursue new explorations. If you can maintain a server continuity rather than cross realm (a necessity with open world instead of instanced content), you get back to the EQ days where people can build a reputation on their server, for good or ill. If you're a jerk that takes people into dangerous areas and then just disbands and leaves, that's going to get around and you're going to get a black mark by the community. But if you build a reputation that your guild is THE guild to go to for helping gatherers explore dangerous areas? Could allow groups to further build their focus on what they want to do/be known for.

The feedback loop is just so players who aren't as creative have hints on what they can do to overcome an area they're struggling with.

Yeah, I understand, and it makes sense. Just a careful line to walk, depending on what your end vision is. It's not a hill I'd want to die on if I were on a dev team of this dream MMO.

I imagine that a local village is under attack from say bandits, one of the NPC's outside changes the quest, someone sees it, goes inside and says Faroth Village is under attack by the Bandits again, anyone up to help out? You just see a group of 10-12 people resting/crafting etc in the tavern, drop what they're doing and head over to help. That sounds fun.

This would never happen. Faroth Village is too well defended and well fortified. Bandits would never dare attack Faroth Village, so says Faroth!

Yeah I imagine balance wise it'd be a hot mess (especially with skills adding effects, and counter effects), but I honestly think in a game like this fun should be king. I think that it's ok to have a downright broken skill, because the enemy might have one too.

In my world it was also open PVP. Which I know a lot of people don't like, but as someone who adores open world pvp and the thought of PVP in a game where you design your own skills sounds like fun. You'd bluff, feint, test boundaries, bait out dangerous moves or defensives. I also think it helps creativity. I mean imagine if you're out and about, helping someone gather killing enemies, and another person comes up. By his looks he's likely a caster of some sort, but then he pulls out twin swords of magic, one fire, one lightning and turns into lightning and zaps towards you and attacks. You both chain your attacks as best you can, trying to setup big combo's when you think the other has no defensive options left. You end up losing. (never did determine what you lost for dying) Now you're annoyed this guy killed you, but in the fight he did something you never saw before. You thought to yourself that was sick, I wonder what he used to build that skill and it encourages you to see what other people came up with. I'll tell you right now, some of my best ideas are built off/improvements of someone elses IMO.

Problem is people are a-holes and a game with open world pvp becomes a nightmare for players who aren't interested in it. Corpse camping, griefing lower level players, someone with infinitely better gear that's been playing for a year vs a new player of 6 months, none of these make PvP fun. However, it might be worth theorizing if PvP would be much of an issue in your game. One reason world pvp and ganking is prevalent in WoW is the game is designed to promote hostility between players via the two factions.

Look back at EverQuest, Final Fantasy XI, Vanguard, and even Final Fantasy XIV and this isn't the case. The players are all on the same side "us vs the world for treasure." EQ & Vanguard in particular still had faction conflict - trolls/ogres/dark elves tolerated one another but hated high elves/humans/dwarves, but when a dark elf and a high elf are in the mountains and there's an angry mountain giant to kill.... well, mercenaries don't necessarily care about politics and racial divides when there's treasure to be had.

So it's an interesting question - if an MMO had open world PvP, but the game wasn't designed to promote hostile pvp in the first place, would the negative aspects be prevalent? Likewise, if servers are contained, and players can build a reputation, that behavior could come back to bite you in the long run. EverQuest saw jerks blacklisted to the point they essentially couldn't play the game. Nobody would party with them, they were excluded by way of community decision. Those days may be impossible (we're not a few hundred thousand players max anymore), but it's interesting to think about.

Let me know if you post it. I think we may have veered off course in this thread enough for now. ^^;

[Kazgrel]

I finished with you in the last post. I've moved on, as I clearly stated. Please stop harassing me before you look even more desperate for attention. Let this thread be what it's for, which is not your pettiness.

My apologies to OP.

Says the petty one.

You are indeed finished here, since you're now ignored.

[OrcsRLame]

I started playing this game recently after getting fed up with wow. Honestly, the biggest difference I notice between the games is the community. Wow has never had the nicest playerbase, and imo, it got worse with Legion with AP fundamentally promoting the "go go go" mindset. It started to affect my mood tbh. Like, when I would queue up for my random heroic, if I didn't get dps that were pulling at least 1 mil on bosses, I would get angry, because these low geared people were hurting my AP per hour. I never raged in chat or anything like that, but the game seriously started getting to me. The RNG too, was quite awful. I stopped being happy when I got a big titanforged item and started getting mad that it wasn't bigger. Combine that with NH being, imo, the hardest raid tier in a very long fucking time, (possibly ever) and my frustration just kept growing.

FF14 just seems more chill and laid back. Some friends got me into the game and I didn't believe them at first when they told me this game has a nice community, but it's true, and when other people are being positive it helps me to be positive too. Instead of coming away from gaming sessions angry or frustrated, I come away happy. I wish the game had better mechanics though. I keep saying that it plays like wow if someone dumped mashed potatoes on your keyboard. Too many keybindings for my liking as well. And off GCD abilities are a pain in the ass in this game. Despite all that though, the game is fun.

[Wrecktangle]

Tier 1 from Molten Core. The paladin set I not sure anyone likes, hence the joke.

OHH no that should be obvious what set I wear in WoW (see signature). I have a more light oriented theme too, but I like the aesthetics of this one quite so.

I was referring to which set in FF14 my PLD wears, based on being a true to theme Leo.

For me, Second Life is conceptually what MMORPGs started out as. Creating a character in a fantasy world was about more than just kill x, get loot y as there were mysteries to unravel, places to explore, people to talk to, things to see in town, and a life to carve out. Like you say, though, if the systems are robust, you probably won't have (many) players who are top raiders/top crafters/top gatherers just because it takes time to do all that. I'd also throw out the diplomacy system Vanguard was looking to build as another avenue of character development, even though it was done as a card game system, it was a neat idea to add to an MMO.

I had a college MIS class that required us to take part in SL. It made me want to do terrible things to people because how frustrating and weird it was to be in a world designed on our world. I play game to see/do things I can't do in real life. I'm not familiar with Vanguard, but some research shows bigger than life goals, and failed before it even got going, how unfortunate.

It does sound like a fun way to pursue new explorations. If you can maintain a server continuity rather than cross realm (a necessity with open world instead of instanced content), you get back to the EQ days where people can build a reputation on their server, for good or ill. If you're a jerk that takes people into dangerous areas and then just disbands and leaves, that's going to get around and you're going to get a black mark by the community. But if you build a reputation that your guild is THE guild to go to for helping gatherers explore dangerous areas? Could allow groups to further build their focus on what they want to do/be known for.

Agreed. I think reputations should matter. Both guild ones and personal.

Problem is people are a-holes and a game with open world pvp becomes a nightmare for players who aren't interested in it. Corpse camping, griefing lower level players, someone with infinitely better gear that's been playing for a year vs a new player of 6 months, none of these make PvP fun. However, it might be worth theorizing if PvP would be much of an issue in your game. One reason world pvp and ganking is prevalent in WoW is the game is designed to promote hostility between players via the two factions.

So it's an interesting question - if an MMO had open world PvP, but the game wasn't designed to promote hostile pvp in the first place, would the negative aspects be prevalent? Likewise, if servers are contained, and players can build a reputation, that behavior could come back to bite you in the long run. EverQuest saw jerks blacklisted to the point they essentially couldn't play the game. Nobody would party with them, they were excluded by way of community decision. Those days may be impossible (we're not a few hundred thousand players max anymore), but it's interesting to think about.

The way the game is structured is that there are 2 factions (you do not pick one, nor are you locked to one). The premise is that there are those who believe Alchemy should be practiced in reverence and kept reasonable, and there are those that believe Alchemy is the key to unlocking the mysteries and potential of the world and should be ripped wide open. By completing quests or participating in events with one side you may see adverse relations with those affiliated with one side. Most players would dabble in both to unlock and accrue recipes, items, etc, but some players would align themselves with whatever they believe to be right. Someone who reveres the old Alchemic notes might see someone collecting or exploring and can choose to engage or not, and vice versa. I would like want a way to turn pvp off. In fact I'd argue I'd actually have the default off, but maybe an optional system that rewards you for opening yourself to that danger. As a non PVP interested player would slightly increased currency/xp, or bonus quests/recipes etc. be enough of an incentive to try it out sometimes?

In addition levels only matter a little bit. The way the game tuning is balanced in both pve/pvp is that there are average stats per level. So there are 5 stats (Strength, Dexterity, Vitality, Constitution, & Intelligence), You get 5 stat points per level, if you invested 1 point in each stat every level you would be equally as strong at level 100 vs. 1. Now I know this seems slightly counter-intuitive. However let's say that every level you invest 3 in STR, 1 in Vitality, and 1 in Constitution. This means that a level 100 vs. a level 1 would mean that the 100 has approx. 4% more damage and hit stun, not counting gear/skills. The level 1 would actually be slightly stronger in movement speed, attack and recovery frames, as well as slightly more magic resistance and magic damage. That's how I envision it.

Now that doesn't take into consideration gear. Gear would also be scaled downward as well. It's very likely the level 100 has numerous effects baked into its gear that would still exist granting reasonable advantage, but they would be scaled downward as well. However if his gear is rare/well crafted, it might have say 5-6% more defensive stats on it, along with whatever effects on it.

The biggest factor would be skills. Level 100 would likely have several more tools, and stronger base skills. These wouldn't be scaled down. The point of this is that the level 100 has a clear strong advantage, but he doesn't just walk up and 1 shot the level 1. They actually still have to fight. The level 100 has to respect the level 1 and his toolkit or else he could be killed, especially if one player is mechanically stronger than the other by a large margin.

How that works behind the scenes I have no idea This way a level 1 could venture to the same 5 star area the level 100 did and could even contribute. He'd likely be at a huge disadvantage due to smaller toolkit, and very baseline gear, but he wouldn't be doing 0 damage or dying in 1 hit. This is the reason why that same wolf I mentioned at level 1 can kill you at level 26.

Let me know if you post it. I think we may have veered off course in this thread enough for now. ^^;

TO BE FAIR, if we're really talking about THE MMO to be played right now, it'd be mine so not OT. I'll let you know if/when I post it over there tho lol.

I started playing this game recently after getting fed up with wow. Honestly, the biggest difference I notice between the games is the community. Wow has never had the nicest playerbase, and imo, it got worse with Legion with AP fundamentally promoting the "go go go" mindset. It started to affect my mood tbh. Like, when I would queue up for my random heroic, if I didn't get dps that were pulling at least 1 mil on bosses, I would get angry, because these low geared people were hurting my AP per hour. I never raged in chat or anything like that, but the game seriously started getting to me. The RNG too, was quite awful. I stopped being happy when I got a big titanforged item and started getting mad that it wasn't bigger. Combine that with NH being, imo, the hardest raid tier in a very long fucking time, (possibly ever) and my frustration just kept growing.

FF14 just seems more chill and laid back. Some friends got me into the game and I didn't believe them at first when they told me this game has a nice community, but it's true, and when other people are being positive it helps me to be positive too. Instead of coming away from gaming sessions angry or frustrated, I come away happy. I wish the game had better mechanics though. I keep saying that it plays like wow if someone dumped mashed potatoes on your keyboard. Too many keybindings for my liking as well. And off GCD abilities are a pain in the ass in this game. Despite all that though, the game is fun.

IIRC you're a fellow Ret, I recognize the name.

Why were you queuing up for a random heroic lol, aren't you a Mythic raider? I haven't done a single heroic dungeon this entire expansion. As soon as I hit max level, and did a few normals we walked right into base mythic and then M+ lol. The RNG is an issue agreed, they may have went a little too far in the RNG model.

Your analysis of FF14 is pretty solid though, never heard it put that way but it makes sense oddly enough.

[Toppy]

I started playing this game recently after getting fed up with wow. Honestly, the biggest difference I notice between the games is the community. Wow has never had the nicest playerbase, and imo, it got worse with Legion with AP fundamentally promoting the "go go go" mindset. It started to affect my mood tbh. Like, when I would queue up for my random heroic, if I didn't get dps that were pulling at least 1 mil on bosses, I would get angry, because these low geared people were hurting my AP per hour. I never raged in chat or anything like that, but the game seriously started getting to me. The RNG too, was quite awful. I stopped being happy when I got a big titanforged item and started getting mad that it wasn't bigger. Combine that with NH being, imo, the hardest raid tier in a very long fucking time, (possibly ever) and my frustration just kept growing.

FF14 just seems more chill and laid back. Some friends got me into the game and I didn't believe them at first when they told me this game has a nice community, but it's true, and when other people are being positive it helps me to be positive too. Instead of coming away from gaming sessions angry or frustrated, I come away happy. I wish the game had better mechanics though. I keep saying that it plays like wow if someone dumped mashed potatoes on your keyboard. Too many keybindings for my liking as well. And off GCD abilities are a pain in the ass in this game. Despite all that though, the game is fun.

This has always struck me too. The community in FFXIV is just so chill and great, even random people. I've gone back and forth between FFXIV and WoW a few times now, and when I go from WoW to FFXIV for a week or so I might be a little beligerant if something goes south ("HELP PICK UP THE GOD DAMNED ADDS OFFTANK") but it doesnt take long for me to mellow out and go with the ride. Its like FFXIV encourages people to not be huge dicks while WoW actively encourages it.

Heck I'm on Balmung which is considered the "worst" server. But the community has been nothing but nice and welcoming. My first day back I had already gotten a new FC and a static for PotD.

I would say that FFXIV is a much better game. The only reason I go back to WoW is nostalgia and addiction. But there is nothing really that WoW does better at this point, even their PvP is in the dumpster while FFXIV devs are actively trying to make it more appealing.

On a related note. The lore book was apparently something the team had no idea people wanted so badly. So I'm hoping we see more world building in SB since the team seems very responsive to the players wants.

[dope_danny]

Its like FFXIV encourages people to not be huge dicks while WoW actively encourages it.

I honestly think a little of it is the "the japanese players are watching and judging me" for weebs but a lot of it is simply that it takes so long to get all 20+ jobs to 60 on one character -and each year the seasonal event rewards change- that rerolling is a big deal. This means your character effectively IS you in Eorzea. Not in some RP way but your name and to a lesser extent face are fixed and if you are a dick that shit sticks waaaay more than it does in mmos like WoW were alts were encouraged for a long time as "what you do when you hit your raid lockout for the week".
'course the trade off is i'll be walking around and see the dude who melded my Stardust Rod back in 2.0 a few years ago and wave and shoot the shit for a while because our names are our names. Still you end up being a dickhead hoping you can peace out and never run into folks again and odds are good its real easy for you to end up being the guy folks see and go "oh shit, not this asshole again".

[OrcsRLame]

IIRC you're a fellow Ret, I recognize the name.

Why were you queuing up for a random heroic lol, aren't you a Mythic raider? I haven't done a single heroic dungeon this entire expansion. As soon as I hit max level, and did a few normals we walked right into base mythic and then M+ lol. The RNG is an issue agreed, they may have went a little too far in the RNG model.

Your analysis of FF14 is pretty solid though, never heard it put that way but it makes sense oddly enough.

Daily random heroic is one of the highest sources of AP per time in the entire game. If you want to stay in the top ranks for total AP gained, (I was about 100 in the world in 7.2 before I quit playing) you'd be a fool to miss your daily even once.

Also, m+ didn't exist at the start of the expansion. I did hundreds of heroic dungeons pre EN, because after doing your weekly mythic 0s those were the only significant source of AP and gear. I entered EN with a lot of 850 titanforged/socket gear from heroics. Also, in 7.2, if the mage tower wasn't up and you didn't have a group capable of 3 chesting ~14s, heroic dungeon spam was better AP per hour than m+.

[Kazgrel]

I honestly think a little of it is the "the japanese players are watching and judging me" for weebs but a lot of it is simply that it takes so long to get all 20+ jobs to 60 on one character -and each year the seasonal event rewards change- that rerolling is a big deal. This means your character effectively IS you in Eorzea. Not in some RP way but your name and to a lesser extent face are fixed and if you are a dick that shit sticks waaaay more than it does in mmos like WoW were alts were encouraged for a long time as "what you do when you hit your raid lockout for the week".
'course the trade off is i'll be walking around and see the dude who melded my Stardust Rod back in 2.0 a few years ago and wave and shoot the shit for a while because our names are our names. Still you end up being a dickhead hoping you can peace out and never run into folks again and odds are good its real easy for you to end up being the guy folks see and go "oh shit, not this asshole again".

That's an unintended yet positive factor stemming from the class/job system and how this game handles all that stuff. Since most people simply opt to level up multiple jobs on the same character, there's a lot less opportunity to hide behind an alt identity. Kinda like early wow, where having alts was much harder, so you ended up making a reputation with people on your main. Something to that effect occurs in FF14 some 10 years after Vanilla-TBC era WoW.

[Deleted]

As a casual WoW player who mainly ran 5-mans and LFR, this game is a godsend. I'd say right now it feels most like MoP : easy dungeons, "LFR" that doesn't feel nearly as braindead as WoW's and rewards worthwhile loot, daily quests to get mounts, actual raids that reward you with powerful, unique looking gear and exclusive mounts, as well as a Justice/Valor token system (rewarded from dungeons, raids, dailies, PvP) that allows more casual players to get powerful gear as well with time.

Regarding the fact that you can have all classes and crafting jobs on a single character : it is very convenient, and to be frank, alts aren't as well supported in-game as in WoW (e.g. you can't mail yourself money/gear, you would need a friend for that, though that can be circumvented by using your guild bank). There's also the fact that you need to go through all main storyline quests to get to endgame, which can be a hassle to do on alts. Personally though, I don't mind all that too much and still have 5 characters, but this is regarded as the weirder option in this game.

[Wrecktangle]

This has always struck me too. The community in FFXIV is just so chill and great, even random people. I've gone back and forth between FFXIV and WoW a few times now, and when I go from WoW to FFXIV for a week or so I might be a little beligerant if something goes south ("HELP PICK UP THE GOD DAMNED ADDS OFFTANK") but it doesnt take long for me to mellow out and go with the ride. Its like FFXIV encourages people to not be huge dicks while WoW actively encourages it.

So what you're saying is that you're the one getting belligerent in wow because people make mistakes, but because FF14 is basically hello kitty island adventure (outside of EX's/Savage) and it's impossible to fail it's good/better?

HARD pass on that ideology. In no way shape or form does WoW encourage people to be dicks, and in no way shape or form does FF14 discourage people beind dicks.

Heck I'm on Balmung which is considered the "worst" server. But the community has been nothing but nice and welcoming. My first day back I had already gotten a new FC and a static for PotD.

I don't disagree that the game is nice and welcoming, because it frankly is, but are you implying its rare/difficult to find an guild/static in WoW?

That's definitely not the case. Either game I could find you a group/guild/FC in seconds.

I would say that FFXIV is a much better game. The only reason I go back to WoW is nostalgia and addiction. But there is nothing really that WoW does better at this point, even their PvP is in the dumpster while FFXIV devs are actively trying to make it more appealing.

Except Wow does better:

World design (not GFX wise, that goes to FF14 in every category). Open world not instanced, actual things going on in the world that semi matter. It's not much better, but it is better.
Combat engine. FF14 combat engine is much less refined and smooth.
Raid design. Larger more impactful/fun raids.
Dungeon replayability. M+ system means dungeons continually offer better rewards and challenge. Unless you like Hello Kitty Island Adventure 14.

Now that's not to say FF14 isn't a better or worse game. That's largely subjective and I actually quite like FF14. It does its fair share of things better than WoW does.

I don't know why you even try to mention PVP in FF14. It's been a literal shitshow since its inception in every possible medium. Even though WoW's PVP is also a shitshow, the combat system alone carries the PVP in a better way.

Daily random heroic is one of the highest sources of AP per time in the entire game. If you want to stay in the top ranks for total AP gained, (I was about 100 in the world in 7.2 before I quit playing) you'd be a fool to miss your daily even once.

Also, m+ didn't exist at the start of the expansion. I did hundreds of heroic dungeons pre EN, because after doing your weekly mythic 0s those were the only significant source of AP and gear. I entered EN with a lot of 850 titanforged/socket gear from heroics. Also, in 7.2, if the mage tower wasn't up and you didn't have a group capable of 3 chesting ~14s, heroic dungeon spam was better AP per hour than m+.

Fair point. I was always behind the curve of AP one because I wasn't pushing Mythic this go around (previous top 20 US), but I also hate running trivial content. I hated the idea of spam running 3 chests low keys and didn't participate. I hated the idea of doing heroics or base mythics when I outgeared them so. Some of the most fun I had ever in this game was chasing the early +10 and +15 achieves. I never thought they could change the dynamics of dungeons so much with the system. I loved it.

[RohanV]

So what you're saying is that you're the one getting belligerent in wow because people make mistakes, but because FF14 is basically hello kitty island adventure (outside of EX's/Savage) and it's impossible to fail it's good/better?

HARD pass on that ideology. In no way shape or form does WoW encourage people to be dicks, and in no way shape or form does FF14 discourage people beind dicks.

I have a theory that FFXIV actually does this. Or more accurately, it doesn't discourage people from being dicks, it filters them out from the population, leaving behind a community of better behaved people. Since people tend to follow the norms of their community, this makes general behaviour better.

The key is the long main story quest, especially the early part of the game. It is kind of boring and slow. Impatient people tend to get bored and drop the game, long before they reach endgame. So the resulting population is more patient than normal. This makes for a pleasant experience, at least while the content is not terribly difficult.

WoW, in contrast, caters to the impatient during the levelling process (heirlooms, super-fast levelling, can start with level 100s, etc) So their endgame population is a lot less patient. However, the price of this is that FFXIV does have a smaller population. It does lose a lot of potential players in the early part of the game.

[Kazgrel]

I have a theory that FFXIV actually does this. Or more accurately, it doesn't discourage people from being dicks, it filters them out from the population, leaving behind a community of better behaved people. Since people tend to follow the norms of their community, this makes general behaviour better.

The key is the long main story quest, especially the early part of the game. It is kind of boring and slow. Impatient people tend to get bored and drop the game, long before they reach endgame. So the resulting population is more patient than normal. This makes for a pleasant experience, at least while the content is not terribly difficult.

WoW, in contrast, caters to the impatient during the levelling process (heirlooms, super-fast levelling, can start with level 100s, etc) So their endgame population is a lot less patient. However, the price of this is that FFXIV does have a smaller population. It does lose a lot of potential players in the early part of the game.

To add onto this, there's also the grey area known as parsing and how you can get reported for harassment were you to use parser numbers to name and shame someone in game.

That being said, I don't know of anyone personally that has been banned for parser shaming, but I also don't know anyone who's actually attempted to do anything that would resemble name and shame. Don't think I haven't had moments where I've wanted to, though...the MCH who was doing less damage than my friend in Sohm Al NM (the level 53-54 dungeon, not the HM) comes to mind...oh, said friend of mine was taking on PLD.

Blizzard works to funnel people into max level gameplay as quickly as possible, while this game wants players to go through the story. There's no denying that FF14's approach alienates people (I have at least 2 RL friends who've quit, and the pacing of the game is the primary factor). It's a matter of striking the right balance, I'd say. It's why that discussion about "jump potions" came up at some point last year. They know that having people walled behind the story will only work for so long before they get to the point where there's so much story stuff to do that a massive portion of a new player's experience in the game is no different than a single player title.

[Wrecktangle]

I have a theory that FFXIV actually does this. Or more accurately, it doesn't discourage people from being dicks, it filters them out from the population, leaving behind a community of better behaved people. Since people tend to follow the norms of their community, this makes general behaviour better.

The key is the long main story quest, especially the early part of the game. It is kind of boring and slow. Impatient people tend to get bored and drop the game, long before they reach endgame. So the resulting population is more patient than normal. This makes for a pleasant experience, at least while the content is not terribly difficult.

WoW, in contrast, caters to the impatient during the levelling process (heirlooms, super-fast levelling, can start with level 100s, etc) So their endgame population is a lot less patient. However, the price of this is that FFXIV does have a smaller population. It does lose a lot of potential players in the early part of the game.

I won't discount your analysis because it definitely has merit, but I'm not sure it's a fair comparison when you compare the age of both games. WoW didn't have heirlooms or super faster leveling, or boosts until much later in the game's life and they were added specifically to alleviate stress caused by other systems. (i.e. alts taking too long to catch up, people wanting to join the game to play with friends, etc.).

As you stated FF14 has already started to run into this issue where it is alienating potential customers by not streamlining key processes in the early game. I hopped on the FF14 reddit the other day and was very surprised by the sheer number of posts about people wanting to come back, or people wanting to try FF14 and then being turned off when they got the answers to their questions. I.e. How long is solo story, when can I play new content with my friend who is x level, when can I play y job, etc.

To add onto this, there's also the grey area known as parsing and how you can get reported for harassment were you to use parser numbers to name and shame someone in game.

That being said, I don't know of anyone personally that has been banned for parser shaming, but I also don't know anyone who's actually attempted to do anything that would resemble name and shame. Don't think I haven't had moments where I've wanted to, though...the MCH who was doing less damage than my friend in Sohm Al NM (the level 53-54 dungeon, not the HM) comes to mind...oh, said friend of mine was taking on PLD.

Blizzard works to funnel people into max level gameplay as quickly as possible, while this game wants players to go through the story. There's no denying that FF14's approach alienates people (I have at least 2 RL friends who've quit, and the pacing of the game is the primary factor). It's a matter of striking the right balance, I'd say. It's why that discussion about "jump potions" came up at some point last year. They know that having people walled behind the story will only work for so long before they get to the point where there's so much story stuff to do that a massive portion of a new player's experience in the game is no different than a single player title.

I used ACT to remove people from groups all the time, more frequently I did it via whisper because I don't like to kick people when they're down. I've had people threaten to report me every now and then, but most of the time they appreciated it and asked for more info/tips or what numbers everyone else was doing for comparison. In DF I REGULARLY called out players who were AFK or not contributing. Who then likely reported me for calling out their AFK and using a parser. I'm not a dick about it,most of the time it's hey man, you have i200 gear, I know you do better than 200 dps (please stop spamming the same move over and over), please help us get this dungeon done so we can move on. Or Healer, can you please help DPS since the tank isn't taking any damage and doesn't need healing? Hence why I'm always so vocal on the Healer DPS topics because they're some of the most volatile players when it comes to being AFK.

Trust me I fully wish you guys didn't have to DPS, but the game just doesn't make anyone need heals except once every 30s.

I think funneling people to max level makes the most sense as that's where most of the population is. I do however think that the story should still exist and should be streamlined as much as possible each prior to each new expansion to smooth the experience for new players. I've also had several IRL friends either A refuse to play at all, or B quit after playing. My brother was like yo I'm going to get stormblood, I'll probably just level with you, no endgame stuff, I said ok cool, you just have to finish the ARR patches (he quit at 2.1) then do HW and we'll be caught up, he said nevermind. Broke my heart. The problem is even if it's better now and faster, all he remember is what he experienced the first time around. You have to make a good first impression.

[threads]

I honestly think a little of it is the "the japanese players are watching and judging me" for weebs but a lot of it is simply that it takes so long to get all 20+ jobs to 60 on one character -and each year the seasonal event rewards change- that rerolling is a big deal. This means your character effectively IS you in Eorzea. Not in some RP way but your name and to a lesser extent face are fixed and if you are a dick that shit sticks waaaay more than it does in mmos like WoW were alts were encouraged for a long time as "what you do when you hit your raid lockout for the week".
'course the trade off is i'll be walking around and see the dude who melded my Stardust Rod back in 2.0 a few years ago and wave and shoot the shit for a while because our names are our names. Still you end up being a dickhead hoping you can peace out and never run into folks again and odds are good its real easy for you to end up being the guy folks see and go "oh shit, not this asshole again".

definitely a big part of it. nobody wants to run around being known as some retarded troll on their one character.

[Kazgrel]

I used ACT to remove people from groups all the time, more frequently I did it via whisper because I don't like to kick people when they're down. I've had people threaten to report me every now and then, but most of the time they appreciated it and asked for more info/tips or what numbers everyone else was doing for comparison. In DF I REGULARLY called out players who were AFK or not contributing. Who then likely reported me for calling out their AFK and using a parser. I'm not a dick about it,most of the time it's hey man, you have i200 gear, I know you do better than 200 dps (please stop spamming the same move over and over), please help us get this dungeon done so we can move on. Or Healer, can you please help DPS since the tank isn't taking any damage and doesn't need healing? Hence why I'm always so vocal on the Healer DPS topics because they're some of the most volatile players when it comes to being AFK.

Trust me I fully wish you guys didn't have to DPS, but the game just doesn't make anyone need heals except once every 30s.

I think funneling people to max level makes the most sense as that's where most of the population is. I do however think that the story should still exist and should be streamlined as much as possible each prior to each new expansion to smooth the experience for new players. I've also had several IRL friends either A refuse to play at all, or B quit after playing. My brother was like yo I'm going to get stormblood, I'll probably just level with you, no endgame stuff, I said ok cool, you just have to finish the ARR patches (he quit at 2.1) then do HW and we'll be caught up, he said nevermind. Broke my heart. The problem is even if it's better now and faster, all he remember is what he experienced the first time around. You have to make a good first impression.

200 dps at ilvl 200 isn't even a "stop spamming 1 button" problem...that's a "do you even push buttons at all" problem, heh.

If I can remember to do it, I should go to a dummy or SSS and see what I parse simply by spamming Blizzard 1. At 270 ilvl, it's probably around 1k...which is a lot more than some people produce in some dungeons. :-/

[Wrecktangle]

200 dps at ilvl 200 isn't even a "stop spamming 1 button" problem...that's a "do you even push buttons at all" problem, heh.

If I can remember to do it, I should go to a dummy or SSS and see what I parse simply by spamming Blizzard 1. At 270 ilvl, it's probably around 1k...which is a lot more than some people produce in some dungeons. :-/

Point in case.

[dope_danny]

definitely a big part of it. nobody wants to run around being known as some retarded troll on their one character.

Nobody except Table Cloth.

[Toppy]

So what you're saying is that you're the one getting belligerent in wow because people make mistakes, but because FF14 is basically hello kitty island adventure (outside of EX's/Savage) and it's impossible to fail it's good/better?

HARD pass on that ideology. In no way shape or form does WoW encourage people to be dicks, and in no way shape or form does FF14 discourage people beind dicks.

In WoW people get belligerant constantly. Its just a never ending barrage no matter what kind of content I do. So its kinda the norm to be that way. FFXIV not so much, everything I do is more laid back. Not easy mind you, thats a bit of a moot point since WoW has incredibly little "difficult" content itself (mythics).

In WoW its considered much more acceptable to judge someone based on their ilvl, on their DPS, on a messed up mechanic, on anything. FFXIV that shit doesnt fly as much.

I don't disagree that the game is nice and welcoming, because it frankly is, but are you implying its rare/difficult to find an guild/static in WoW?

That's definitely not the case. Either game I could find you a group/guild/FC in seconds

Unless you're a tank or already have a circle of friends, it tends to be harder to find a good group after a month into a raid tier yes.

World design (not GFX wise, that goes to FF14 in every category). Open world not instanced, actual things going on in the world that semi matter. It's not much better, but it is better.
Combat engine. FF14 combat engine is much less refined and smooth.
Raid design. Larger more impactful/fun raids.
Dungeon replayability. M+ system means dungeons continually offer better rewards and challenge. Unless you like Hello Kitty Island Adventure 14.

Now that's not to say FF14 isn't a better or worse game. That's largely subjective and I actually quite like FF14. It does its fair share of things better than WoW does.

I don't know why you even try to mention PVP in FF14. It's been a literal shitshow since its inception in every possible medium. Even though WoW's PVP is also a shitshow, the combat system alone carries the PVP in a better way.

Even the things you listed are subjective. But arguing those points would still be opinion so a bit pointless. A part of it is boiling down to "Its not WoW, so its not better". And stop doing that hellow kitty island adventure crap. Its hugely ironic to say one game is casual when comparing to WoW, the game that from its inception sold itself on being the casual friendly option.

I think funneling people to max level makes the most sense as that's where most of the population is. I do however think that the story should still exist and should be streamlined as much as possible each prior to each new expansion to smooth the experience for new players. I've also had several IRL friends either A refuse to play at all, or B quit after playing. My brother was like yo I'm going to get stormblood, I'll probably just level with you, no endgame stuff, I said ok cool, you just have to finish the ARR patches (he quit at 2.1) then do HW and we'll be caught up, he said nevermind. Broke my heart. The problem is even if it's better now and faster, all he remember is what he experienced the first time around. You have to make a good first impression.

That sounds like an argument of "Its not wow I want it to be more like wow". FFXIV the story is important, its an important part of the game itself. If people dont like that, they're playing the wrong game and can go to WoW where the story doesnt matter.

[Deleted]

Oh these go back to your game if you dislike this are the best there is. You're aware if everyone drops the game and goes back, it hurts YOU more than them? If everyone does it, the game is dead. Returning players that may have lost accounts, such as me. Its fun to play the game, but when I remember the 215 run and talk to ABC across the world for ARR story, I lose the will to give a shit. So many friends I tried to get into the game during HW, when they ask how long till we can play? Im sorta afraid to answer, cos they all quit before then. If you love the story so much, you can do it - Forcing others to "enjoy" it is stupid. Old, outdated content should be optional for the story, not forced upon a player. In WoW as an example, you can do a ton of quests of the expansion you decide to do, all their daily hubs, and reputation grinds and bladibla. its there if you want to do it, its however not forced upon you to be able to play with your friends - do it later.

If you don't see how this is a problem, I can't help you. I can say that the devs themselves said its worth looking into a lvling/story skip potion in their shop. It costs them players, if YOU think that's not true, well, I can't help you. As you like to state, its a pointless argument, but the devs are leaning on the side of making a skippable option. Same goes for the topic of the new classes, they want you to level with them, not necessarily get to max level, then unlock them.

I like the XIV story, I think its great, but forcing it on others when we will now have literally multiple hours of catching up endgame of an expansion for HW & ARR, it only makes the gap wider and the problem bigger.

[Kyriani]

FFXIV is not a game that begins at max level. It's a game that begins at level 1. Rushing people to max level the way WoW does is a mistake IMO and one of many reasons why I am not playing WoW but am playing FFXIV.