Subtlety PTR Notes

[Valentyn]

I wouldn't mind if they are done. They gave us an option to turn permanent SS spamming into more meaningful burst windows, got rid of that SS blink and gave us two charges of Shadow Step. Now it's just number tweaking, which will be done 1-2 weaks before the patch.

I miss the Sprint->Vanish, but I'll get over it.

And then nearly each week after it, for another month or two, including some ninja "hot fixes" to our set bonuses. :P

[Seawolph]

And then nearly each week after it, for another month or two, including some ninja "hot fixes" to our set bonuses. :P

And we still don't know exactly how the T20 4p interacts with SoD. What does 50% mean? Guaranteed crit on Evis (over 100% crit) would very much devalue crit beyond a silly threshold of like 15% baseline. And an extra CP for SS and BS will do nothing except cause overrunning of CPs during a dance. We'll have the choice between SS, SS for 5 or SS, BS for 8 CP. I mean, BS during dance feels bad, but adding a single CP extra generation to SS isn't really the solution...

[Valentyn]

And we still don't know exactly how the T20 4p interacts with SoD. What does 50% mean? Guaranteed crit on Evis (over 100% crit) would very much devalue crit beyond a silly threshold of like 15% baseline. And an extra CP for SS and BS will do nothing except cause overrunning of CPs during a dance. We'll have the choice between SS, SS for 5 or SS, BS for 8 CP. I mean, BS during dance feels bad, but adding a single CP extra generation to SS isn't really the solution...

Still so much for them to do really. I really hope Sub is going to go into ToS on a great note.
I just unlocked Concordance as well.

[Deleted]

And we still don't know exactly how the T20 4p interacts with SoD. What does 50% mean? Guaranteed crit on Evis (over 100% crit) would very much devalue crit beyond a silly threshold of like 15% baseline. And an extra CP for SS and BS will do nothing except cause overrunning of CPs during a dance. We'll have the choice between SS, SS for 5 or SS, BS for 8 CP. I mean, BS during dance feels bad, but adding a single CP extra generation to SS isn't really the solution...

all you said here is true. SoD works exactly how you think. I'm trying to find a way to play sub rogue , but I just cant,rotation is rly dumb, I'm missing enveloping shadows and master of shadows, without anticipation i waste too many cp, but we just want DS... barely can hold 750k dps with 910ilvl 4/ t20 2t19. shoulder/boots. well for me how we are now are much better than it is in PTR.

[Hobbes0773]

all you said here is true. SoD works exactly how you think. I'm trying to find a way to play sub rogue , but I just cant,rotation is rly dumb, I'm missing enveloping shadows and master of shadows, without anticipation i waste too many cp, but we just want DS... barely can hold 750k dps with 910ilvl 4/ t20 2t19. shoulder/boots. well for me how we are now are much better than it is in PTR.

Stop trying to use numbers for a direct comparison. The PTR is not number balanced yet. You should be focusing on mechanics and playstyle. Trying to compare numbers really shows that you aren't up to speed on how the PTR works and you should work on that so your feedback is actually relevant.

[Terahertz]

I wouldn't mind if they are done. They gave us an option to turn permanent SS spamming into more meaningful burst windows, got rid of that SS blink and gave us two charges of Shadow Step. Now it's just number tweaking, which will be done 1-2 weaks before the patch.

I miss the Sprint->Vanish, but I'll get over it.

I hope they're done. The 7.2.5 sub patch notes literally made me re-sub again because the changes actually really excite me. Double Sstep, out of combat SS teleport, more meaningful SDance burst windows, higher backstab damage and that 35 sec 20% dmg increase buff being revamped all really excite me. Can't wait for 7.2.5!

[Steelwind]

I got a new relic off of Mythic Tich (Nightblade dmg), and it represented a 10K dps increase (+3 ilevels, replacing energetic stabbing w/ boots). I was disappointed to sim my character on the PTR with this setup and notice that it was actually a dps loss.

It seems as thought energetic stabbing is going to be, far and away, our best relic. Shadowstrike, Eviscerate, and Nightblade damage will lose significant value. It might make sense to change the Nightblade to increase the debuff value, rather than the DoT damage. For example, "Increases the Nightblade bonus damage by 10/20/30/40%" (15 -> 16.5/18/19.5/21). Likewise, Eviscerate crit relic is going to lose value with the new Symbols of Death. Instead, it would retain the value of crit to change it to "Eviscerate has a 5/10/15/20% chance to consume no CP." It mimics the effect of a crit (hitting again), while synergizing with the flow of the spec (using finishers/spending CP).

It would feel really awesome to proc a few 'free' eviscerates within a deep shadows shadow dance!

[elfporn]

I got a new relic off of Mythic Tich (Nightblade dmg), and it represented a 10K dps increase (+3 ilevels, replacing energetic stabbing w/ boots). I was disappointed to sim my character on the PTR with this setup and notice that it was actually a dps loss.

It seems as thought energetic stabbing is going to be, far and away, our best relic. Shadowstrike, Eviscerate, and Nightblade damage will lose significant value. It might make sense to change the Nightblade to increase the debuff value, rather than the DoT damage. For example, "Increases the Nightblade bonus damage by 10/20/30/40%" (15 -> 16.5/18/19.5/21). Likewise, Eviscerate crit relic is going to lose value with the new Symbols of Death. Instead, it would retain the value of crit to change it to "Eviscerate has a 5/10/15/20% chance to consume no CP." It mimics the effect of a crit (hitting again), while synergizing with the flow of the spec (using finishers/spending CP).

It would feel really awesome to proc a few 'free' eviscerates within a deep shadows shadow dance!

Youre getting ahead of yourself. Numbers tuning hasnt happened yet. Any sims for ptr are inaccurate af. Its a waste of time to sim live vs ptr right now.

[Steelwind]

Youre getting ahead of yourself. Numbers tuning hasnt happened yet. Any sims for ptr are inaccurate af. Its a waste of time to sim live vs ptr right now.

I'll take 30 seconds of 'wasted' time in order to get a feel for the general power level of relics as it stands. People have a bad habit of noting "It's just alpha/beta/early in a new tier" etc. as a rationale for not discussing/testing the way things stand. Sub hasn't been touched in two passes, indicating more and more that they are close to the desired result. Whereas numbers might change, my suggestions pertain more to design (retooling two traits) than tuning.

[elfporn]

I'll take 30 seconds of 'wasted' time in order to get a feel for the general power level of relics as it stands. People have a bad habit of noting "It's just alpha/beta/early in a new tier" etc. as a rationale for not discussing/testing the way things stand. Sub hasn't been touched in two passes, indicating more and more that they are close to the desired result. Whereas numbers might change, my suggestions pertain more to design (retooling two traits) than tuning.

This is the wrong way to go about it. Gameplay is what is being iterated on right now, and they might be done with sub as far as gameplay goes.

Numbers tuning is the last thing done, and usually goes into 1-2 weeks after live. You're running a sim comparing current ptr dps to live dps, before any numbers tuning on ptr. I'd say that's a good definition of wasted time.

It's entirely possible that ES is the best, it's also possible that it's mediocre due to the new energy spread, and the direct damage traits are the better choices. But at this point it's speculation.

You are correct that nb will probably be valuated less if they keep the trait the same. I also cant say i wouldnt like to see changes that synergize crit instead of devaluing it.

[Steelwind]

This is the wrong way to go about it. Gameplay is what is being iterated on right now, and they might be done with sub as far as gameplay goes.

Numbers tuning is the last thing done, and usually goes into 1-2 weeks after live. You're running a sim comparing current ptr dps to live dps, before any numbers tuning on ptr. I'd say that's a good definition of wasted time.

It's entirely possible that ES is the best, it's also possible that it's mediocre due to the new energy spread, and the direct damage traits are the better choices. But at this point it's speculation.

You are correct that nb will probably be valuated less if they keep the trait the same. I also cant say i wouldnt like to see changes that synergize crit instead of devaluing it.

I'd rather offer feedback now than two weeks into live. If/when they do their pass, I'll do it again.

You're counting on changes that haven't happened yet.

The only waste of time is the person adding nothing to the discussion.

[Hobbes0773]

I'd rather offer feedback now than two weeks into live. If/when they do their pass, I'll do it again.

You're counting on changes that haven't happened yet.

The only waste of time is the person adding nothing to the discussion.

You are testing something on the PTR that has not been done, at all, yet.

This is not only a waste of time, but it is harmful in that it gives misleading information.

For quite some time now they have done a numbers pass or two at the tail end of the PTR, and before then they simply focus on mechanical and rotational changes. Not only have they stated that a numbers pass has not been done on this specific PTR, but they have done so every time in the past since Legion kicked off and before. You can debate whether or not they are correct in their numbers pass, but don't pretend like we won't even get one. We will, which has been stated, and their is a very strong precedent.

In a nutshell, you are wrong that the only waste of time is adding nothing to the discussion. Because it is also a waste of time to discuss numbers before they are in yet. That is like saying it is worth your time to discuss the speed of a car before it has wheels put on it.

[Deleted]

there is clearly a missunderstanding on the purpose of simc.

the most important topic atm is gameplay and why we like/disslike changes.

i personaly dont like the change.

my biggest concern currently is the gameplay changes,
the spec just is not engaging in the current ptr iteration(relative to live version).

[Hobbes0773]

there is clearly a missunderstanding on the purpose of simc.

the most important topic atm is gameplay and why we like/disslike changes.

i personaly dont like the change.

my biggest concern currently is the gameplay changes,
the spec just is not engaging in the current ptr iteration(relative to live version).

What about it isn't engaging?

[elfporn]

there is clearly a missunderstanding on the purpose of simc.

the most important topic atm is gameplay and why we like/disslike changes.

i personaly dont like the change.

my biggest concern currently is the gameplay changes,
the spec just is not engaging in the current ptr iteration(relative to live version).

Is it too complex with sod and goremaws modifying the rotation? Elaborate pls.

[Deleted]

What about it isn't engaging?

Symbols changers -> lose of an maintainance buff.
Nightblade changes -> not understandable
Flickering Shadows remove -> understandable but we lose another intressting mechanic(discussable)
Enveloping Shadows nerf -> makes Dark Shadow the best talent in this tier
Soothing Darkness -> will lose even more value and make this talent row less intressting

Symbols changes are understandable becouse of the talent/shadowdance changes,
however these changes just make it a 30 sec cooldown you pretty mutch use on cd (especialy with tier set).

Shadowstrike teleport change is okay.
QoL changes (e.g. energy, shd gcd) are good.
Shurikenstorm changes are nice to have.

The gameplay will be close to the same with longer conservation phases and less stuff to maintain/optimize.
(you basicly do less and wait more)

[elfporn]

Symbols changers -> lose of an maintainance buff.
Nightblade changes -> not understandable
Flickering Shadows remove -> understandable but we lose another intressting mechanic(discussable)
Enveloping Shadows nerf -> makes Dark Shadow the best talent in this tier
Soothing Darkness -> will lose even more value and make this talent row less intressting

Symbols changes are understandable becouse of the talent/shadowdance changes,
however these changes just make it a 30 sec cooldown you pretty mutch use on cd (especialy with tier set).

Shadowstrike teleport change is okay.
QoL changes (e.g. energy, shd gcd) are good.
Shurikenstorm changes are nice to have.

The gameplay will be close to the same with longer conservation phases and less stuff to maintain/optimize.
(you basicly do less and wait more)

The SoD change turns it into a strategic interactive ability that adds depth to the rotation. Think of it like a skill-shot. When used to your advantage it's a huge boost.

The nightblade change is to move more damage out of the DoT, and into DD abilities. NB is one of our highest damaging abilities in live - the spec isn't a DoT spec like assination though, so some damage is moved off the DoT, and a %dmg increase debuff added to keep a maintenance debuff of some sort in the spec.

Flickering shadows...it is a skill-shot in live, but it's shitty not to have sprint available as a utility when you need.

Enveoping shadows as it is on live was completely removed in favor of a talent that keeps live's gameplay available. The nerf to the new talent is likely because with all the other changes, we would be pumping out a lot more finishers, and could keep up SD almost constantly (Can nearly do so on live now). This is understandable when considering all other changes to gameplay.

Soothing darkness is a talent that becomes more valuable with different talent combinations. I see nothign wrong here.

SD gameplay will be changeable via talents. This opens up different builds for different things. If you want to do less, and wait more, you can. If you want the same rotation as live, you can do that too.

The gameplay will become more strategic, less dependent upon maintenance buffs and more on managing the rotation with timing and resources. A welcome change.

[whathump]

Messing around with the PTR option in simcraft using the default APL, the highest numbers I could get were with mantle+bracers (using CoF and t19, didn't test tomb trinkets/gear) using 3 energetic stabbing relics. Talents were weaponmaster, subterfuge, deeper stratagem, master of shadows, and DfA/premed (DfA was maybe less than 0.5% higher than premed). I also found that using master of subtlety, shadow focus, deeper stratagem, enveloping shadows, and premed simmed within 0.5% of the other talent build (797k vs 800k). So it seems, according to my tests at least, that something close to the current playstyle and a backstab centric playstyle will be equally viable. Of course this is the PTR so it could still change before it hits live. Boots I found to be significantly behind bracers with the changes. Hopefully blizzard will rework them.

I'm not a theorycrafter by any means so I wouldn't take my word as the end all be all. I didn't do extremely thorough testing, but I tested most talent combinations I could think of with mantle+boots and mantle+bracers.

[Deleted]

....

There seems to be an missunderstanding.
I know the changes well and know how they play out.

Its okay to have a difrent opinion.
I am more intressted in an discussion.

PS:
Nightblade changes:

Developers' notes: Further pushes Subtlety away from maintaining Nightblade on all secondary targets and instead into focusing their damage into 1 target. Additionally, gives Nightblade a mechanical interaction with the rest of the core rotation that fulfills the “setup” feel of Subtlety.

Edit:
@whathump

talent combinations using NH mythic profile with shoulders/boots.

[whathump]

Edit:
@whathump

talent combinations using NH mythic profile with shoulders/boots.

Yeah, I'm using my own gear and not the mythic nighthold profile (i'm 901 equipped in sub gear). Putting in 2210021 with boots in my gear I get 718k.

EDIT

This is my gear list I'm running with. I have 890 mastery/haste bracers with a socket to replace leggo bracers.