Ghostcrawler - Loot Should Not Be "too Predictible"

[Heathy]

The thing is, Mythic loot is still way off 925.

I mean 6 Bosses in Nighthold drop 905, which is still 20 Ilvl off.

Mythic basically just increases your chances of receiving the best possible loot and this makes mythic loot feel like shit, seriously, getting your 5th 905 Item for the same slot feels like an insult.

yes until the last tier in argus where the raid there will be the best place to attain the best possible gear. thats what its going to be though, until the last tier there will always be slightly better gear, even during the last tier you'll still be able to try to roll sockets/tertiary. not that it will be a massive increase but it'll keep the content worth doing.

i honestly don't mind the minor disparities between gear, the ilvl and stats have probably increased way too fast but they are obviously ok with the numbers for now. they have the best sim tools so i'm not too worried about 'the number are too big' if they need to crunch again they will.

rather than the content being balanced around certain gear, I think today its balanced around a specific output, anything more than that is gravy. because of the legendaries it has to be this way anyway, otherwise you would need specific legendaries to progress. where as you don't, you just need your raid to be able to beat the enrage and not die.

[Talvindius]

Depends on how you look at the game and what you enjoy in it.

As a raider I can't see much good being done by butchering the difficulty curve.

I think NH's difficulty curve was on point. It differs from entry to final boss so much that it makes progression slower but I think it was much more meaningful.

It's hard to think now that at one point my guild had problems with something as trivial now as Heroic Spellblade.

I think people are too wrapped up in the looting aspect of the game and not noticing great the actual game itself is.

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Your friend needs a life. I, on the other hand, prefer a system that checks off the gear as BiS, isn't RNG on top of RNG, isn't grinds on top of grinds, etc. I, on other hand, have a different view of what's acceptable game design, and I, on the hand, have different RL commitments then you do. So, if you will, don't compare what you do to what I do. In my opinion, the current system is pure garbage.

You, on the other hand (lol), should remember that the goal isn't to get as geared as possible. If you're sufficiently geared to do the content you want, which assuming you don't play a lot should be AOTC and Keystone Master rather than Cutting Edge and +20 keys, you've probably obtained already.

There's always room to get more gear but you don't NEED it, you just WANT it. Just because you WANT something doesn't mean you get it. Grinding rewards people who want it more than you and are willing to do more work to get it, if you can't do the work then try not worrying about it too much.

The system is not pure garbage, it's an evolution of the gearing system that's been in game since Vanilla. If you didn't like RNG looting you should have jumped ship by now to an MMO without RNG looting. Oh wait those don't exist.

Oh well.

[Kralljin]

i honestly don't mind the minor disparities between gear, the ilvl and stats have probably increased way too fast but they are obviously ok with the numbers for now.

I honestly do not consider a 20 Ilvl difference "minor".

It's a bit like Throne of Thunder Heroic loot would have turned into Siege of Orgrimmar Heroic loot sometimes.

If you're raiding on the highest difficulty, i think you shouldn't rely on +15 Ilvl procs to reach maximum Ilvl.

The system is not pure garbage, it's an evolution of the gearing system that's been in game since Vanilla. If you didn't like RNG looting you should have jumped ship by now to an MMO without RNG looting. Oh wait those don't exist.

I really think people should stop treating this like an binary issue, it's not "NO RNG vs. RNG".

Gearing System in most RPG were usually a balance between reliability and RNG, you kinda need both because an overdose from either side leads to frustration or boredom.

The Titanforged system has become more or less a way to solve the issue that Blizzard caused themselves, people gear themselves too fast and are left without anything to progress.

[Fkiolaris]

the only RNG in loot should be the item actually dropping. warforge/titanforge/tertiary shit should've never been put into the game.

This 100%. There was already RNG in this precise form and it was fine, especially when complemented by SOME gear available through currencies and reputations (I am talking mostly about pve in TBC and WotLK and pvp in WoD). This retarded casino experience of layer upon layer upon layer of RNG, like trying to win the roulette at 4 different tables at the same time is an abomination.

[barackohmama]

I love RNG. I think the legendary system and wf/tf system is great. It also plays well with blizzards intention for people to play a lot. The more you play, the better chance there is you will get some nice high tf items or good legendaries. If you don't have any wf/tf pieces chances are high you didn't play that much. Also it adds some depth to regular items in the way that there are rare versions of each item i.e the one closest to ilvl cap.

[WowIsDead64]

You should clearly understand, that the only truly fair RNG - is when game developer clearly states and guarantees X% droprate. And when game developer doesn't even state clear way of obtaining items - then there is large room for loot manipulation. You should realize two simple things: 1) The fact, that Blizzard use any particular loot systems - is assumed by players. Blizzard has never officially confirmed, that they use any particular loot systems. 2) Any droprates, provided for any items - are average ones, based on stats, collected by 3rd party sites. Blizzard has never provided any exact droprates (with some rare exceptions) for any of their items.

Conclusion? So called RNG - is subject to change at any arbitrary moment. There is no guarantees.

Why I hate such system? Because even casinos and lotteries are fair and provide reliable information about your chances to win. Nobody would agree to be involved in any gambling, if he wouldn't know exact chances to win. Hiding such chances - is actually against laws and treated as fraud. Yet video games are allowed to do it without any legal consequences.

I.e. my opinion is quite simple: if I'm going to interact with some RNG - I want to know exact chances to succeed. If game developer hides them from me - then there is something, that need to be hidden, i.e. something is not ok with his loot system.

[Eazy]

There's a difference between Raid RNG and Legendary RNG.

[Destructus]

In a recent post by Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street, he said the following about Loot:



I bolded and underlined for emphasis.

I agree with Greg here, RNG in the loot game needs to be in the game. If everything were predictable, gearing up doesn't feel exciting anymore.

Think about how you currently gear up an alt. Grinding nethershards is an absolute predictable way to gear up. You grind 400 shards, you can buy an 850 piece. You grind 5k shards, you can get an 880 piece. Boring.

If dungeons only dropped honor / valor tokens, and you used them to just buy gear you wanted from vendors... Boring.

RNG has its place in MMOs, and it should absolutely stay. Anyone who thinks otherwise, please present a logical argument for why it shouldn't be a part of an MMO, especially one like WoW.

I think most people aren't arguing for the complete removal of RNG, lately WoW just relies on it way too much. What's wrong with a hybrid system where we can build up a currency and sometimes get lucky and get the piece we were grinding for? Now you can spend the currency on another piece you need. The excitement is still there but you're guaranteed to get your piece either way.

They could also make it so duplicate loot can be traded in for currency so if you buy a piece with currency and it drops right after you can trade the new one in so your effort/luck isn't wasted. It's not hard to come up with compromising solutions, Blizzard is just stuck in their ways and think they know more about what makes loot fun/exciting than we do. Not all of that data of theirs on loot drops, playtime, etc. translates proportionately to fun/excitement levels.

[Ishayu]

It's a fine balance, really. There should be some RNG, but it shouldn't be like this, either.

If he thinks WoW is in danger of becoming too predictable in the loot systems, he's completely out of touch. The real danger right now is the game turning into a slot machine.

[moremana]

RNG is a good thing, Blizzard, like everything else, takes it to extremes.

[Geran]

We all can accept some degree on rng, but the amount of it in wow (or other games) is too much (lazy design).


Just think it about if your salary were rng based (you can win 10x or no income in a month), if you are lucky you will be happy, if not you are gonna spit venom.

[In Ogres We Trust]

I think NH's difficulty curve was on point. It differs from entry to final boss so much that it makes progression slower but I think it was much more meaningful.

It's hard to think now that at one point my guild had problems with something as trivial now as Heroic Spellblade.

I think people are too wrapped up in the looting aspect of the game and not noticing great the actual game itself is.

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You, on the other hand (lol), should remember that the goal isn't to get as geared as possible. If you're sufficiently geared to do the content you want, which assuming you don't play a lot should be AOTC and Keystone Master rather than Cutting Edge and +20 keys, you've probably obtained already.

There's always room to get more gear but you don't NEED it, you just WANT it. Just because you WANT something doesn't mean you get it. Grinding rewards people who want it more than you and are willing to do more work to get it, if you can't do the work then try not worrying about it too much.

The system is not pure garbage, it's an evolution of the gearing system that's been in game since Vanilla. If you didn't like RNG looting you should have jumped ship by now to an MMO without RNG looting. Oh wait those don't exist.

Oh well.

Obviously, the point of my post went above your head.

[sn0w-]

In a recent post by Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street, he said the following about Loot:



I bolded and underlined for emphasis.

I agree with Greg here, RNG in the loot game needs to be in the game. If everything were predictable, gearing up doesn't feel exciting anymore.

Think about how you currently gear up an alt. Grinding nethershards is an absolute predictable way to gear up. You grind 400 shards, you can buy an 850 piece. You grind 5k shards, you can get an 880 piece. Boring.

If dungeons only dropped honor / valor tokens, and you used them to just buy gear you wanted from vendors... Boring.

RNG has its place in MMOs, and it should absolutely stay. Anyone who thinks otherwise, please present a logical argument for why it shouldn't be a part of an MMO, especially one like WoW.

I don't really agree with GC at all here, and I usually do.
The main issue I see with this is that it leads players so only care about Titanforges. It makes most loot that drops boring, and indeed disappointing when a great item drops that doesn't titanforge.

[Deleted]

I like ffxiv approach. You still get loot drops from bosses, but you receive tokens along with it. So eventually you will be able to buy the gear you want, if it never drops. Titanforged system, on other hand, is complete bullshit. They even have to nerf 4p bonuses of T19, just so people will not keep using it, over T20. If that's not a sign of bad design, I don't know what is.

[Talvindius]

Obviously, the point of my post went above your head.

I don't think you made any valid points at all, and your rebuttal is equally pointless.

The problem is clearly your perspective, which is why you disagree with the systems in place. They're not bad systems, you just think they're bad. If they really were that bad Blizz would do more to change them, but they aren't so clearly it doesn't seem like a problem to them.

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Is it bad design because you dislike it? I surely like it.

This needs to be plastered above GD on a huge banner because it's clearly not understood enough.

[Copey]

Uh, last I checked Raid loot is RNG. PvP-gear drops are RNG.

The whole damn game does not need to be RNG.

[Aggrophobic]

Is it bad design because you dislike it? I surely like it.

No, it's bad design becuase it's bad design.

[Eninya]

It really depends on what the RNG is applied to, and how low your odds are for something.

I can get a rare transmog/mount in a few attempts, but holy shit I can't get the right legendaries. :/

[Daffan]

In a recent post by Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street, he said the following about Loot:



I bolded and underlined for emphasis.

I agree with Greg here, RNG in the loot game needs to be in the game. If everything were predictable, gearing up doesn't feel exciting anymore.

Think about how you currently gear up an alt. Grinding nethershards is an absolute predictable way to gear up. You grind 400 shards, you can buy an 850 piece. You grind 5k shards, you can get an 880 piece. Boring.

If dungeons only dropped honor / valor tokens, and you used them to just buy gear you wanted from vendors... Boring.

RNG has its place in MMOs, and it should absolutely stay. Anyone who thinks otherwise, please present a logical argument for why it shouldn't be a part of an MMO, especially one like WoW.

RNG gear has been in the game forever, in terms of loot.

Nobody has a problem with that part.

What people have problem with is WF/TF because it affects content progression, trivialization and obsolescence. It has a whole host of problems just for that "Wooh" feeling when you loot it.

[bufferunderrun]

it's bad design because to understand if something is an upgrade you need to use an addon or do a round of simcraft, it's bad because many time higher content don't give a real upgrade both because secondary are too powerful and because the wf/tf system. Also for the sake of this random system they have removed socket and enchants for most pieces.
Hope blizzard next xpack understand it's error and go back to wrath model when rng was only applied to chance of dropping a piece.