[Balance] State in 7.2 / 7.2.5

[agittunc]

Hello people,

i am going from warlock to balance druid as my main. i recently got the emerald dreamcatcher which is really nice.

but i see that balance druids are among the lowest ST dps in the ranged team. and AOE being alright but not amazing. (warcraftlogs)

how is this going to be in 7.2.5? and what would make it better?

[Kluian05]

Hello people,

i am going from warlock to balance druid as my main. i recently got the emerald dreamcatcher which is really nice.

but i see that balance druids are among the lowest ST dps in the ranged team. and AOE being alright but not amazing. (warcraftlogs)

how is this going to be in 7.2.5? and what would make it better?

Isn't affliction one of the strongest range DPS specs in the game right now? Why change? Do not expect Moonkins to be better than middle of the pack. They are on the low end right now.

[Zan15]

right now there has been little change and the only bright spot is the insertion of a magical legendary ring that has had zero communication about.

as it stands right now we might gain 1-2 spots but our ST problems will remain unless the ring goes live then the game changes a bit.

there is already a huge thread on moonkin and 7.2.5, feel free to read the last 4-5 pages to get caught up

[agittunc]

Isn't affliction one of the strongest range DPS specs in the game right now? Why change? Do not expect Moonkins to be better than middle of the pack. They are on the low end right now.

Affliction is really boring to me. don't wanna play a class i don't enjoy anymore.

[Polarthief]

Affliction is really boring to me. don't wanna play a class i don't enjoy anymore.

As someone who currently mains Balance but has a 0-legendary Warlock I just hit 110 with semi-recently, I do enjoy the Warlock, but I can see it being awkward in a raid setting. It has amazing AoE but doesn't feel well with the long ass cast time on Seed of Corruption (compared to just instant-cast DoTing and Starfalling).

If you're playing Balance for DPS though, you're going to be unhappy with the ST DPS it does. If you're playing to have fun, then yeah, Druid's a good class since you can also play Melee, Healer, or Tank if you get bored!

[agittunc]

As someone who currently mains Balance but has a 0-legendary Warlock I just hit 110 with semi-recently, I do enjoy the Warlock, but I can see it being awkward in a raid setting. It has amazing AoE but doesn't feel well with the long ass cast time on Seed of Corruption (compared to just instant-cast DoTing and Starfalling).

If you're playing Balance for DPS though, you're going to be unhappy with the ST DPS it does. If you're playing to have fun, then yeah, Druid's a good class since you can also play Melee, Healer, or Tank if you get bored!

thanks for your insight. (others too!) i was playing warlock for the dps. but i just don't enjoy it. and even if balance isn't the best ST spec out there it is alright. aoe is does tend to go crazy really quickly. and i also play resto.

i just hope they can buff solar wrath and lunar strike. these 2 do like no damage. while starsurge is very good! solar wrath/lunar strike could use a 20% buff aswell as dot damage by 10%. this would make it competitive with the other ranged dps.

[Polarthief]

i just hope they can buff solar wrath and lunar strike. these 2 do like no damage. while starsurge is very good! solar wrath/lunar strike could use a 20% buff aswell as dot damage by 10%. this would make it competitive with the other ranged dps.

It's sad when someone new to the spec gets it more than the devs do

[agittunc]

It's sad when someone new to the spec gets it more than the devs do

Dot damage is actually extremely low. looking it from a warlock vs druid perspective affliction dots does roughly 60% more damage. while druids have to cast other stuff.

they need to redo dot damage. starfall isnt great but i don't think starfall needs that much changing. we can already spam it quite well with SotF. so having 2-3 up would me a good aoe rotation. and the radius is pretty nice.

lunar strike and solar wrath seems alrightish. but i still think it could use a buff. 12-18% buff would probably do the trick. starsurge is already getting a 11% buff which is pretty nice with the t20 bonus. would make it better when ToS comes out. so ST would be better if they nerf the other spells a bit. even if everything was buffed my 8% ST damage and AoE damage would be in a way better place.

[Deleted]

im just really curious if stellar flare might actually be good with the new legendary ring, being able to cheaply empower stellar flare might make us a competitive multidotter. Then again stellar flare may continue to be a tumbleweed out in the desert as usual.

[Polarthief]

im just really curious if stellar flare might actually be good with the new legendary ring, being able to cheaply empower stellar flare might make us a competitive multidotter. Then again stellar flare may continue to be a tumbleweed out in the desert as usual.

How would StFl be good with the ring? Inc still beats it in pretty much every situation, and it doesn't scale in ANY way with SOTF (non-Stellar Emps/AsP cost reduction for Starfall)

The problem with StFl is that it's just 100% inconvenient to use:
- Not instant (can't cast on the go)
- Takes AsP (like why?)
- 24s duration (IMO too short for multi-dotting shit with it, especially given the above 2 things)

No, pretty much every Balance who uses the ring (which will be most of us) will be running SOTF+Inc. StFl is pretty dead and Blizzard wants to ignore that, sadly.

[thedeisel]

If that ring goes through as just granting SotF straight up, Starfall becomes the top single target damage spender when combined with Stellar Flare. Starfall, remember, also applies stellar empowerment to Stellar Flare.

With how much haste we have from our tier bonus, I could see that easily out pacing Incarnation as the go to for fights with any amount of cleave and probably even on pure single target (unless you have ED). You'll be able to keep starfall up, stellar flare on a priority target and squeeze in a starsurge on the target probably once per starfall when you don't have to refresh stellar flare.

If that ring goes through for the spec it's going to be incredibly powerful in terms of unlocking the spec in raids. That is why it's so bothersome that it's a legendary effect.


To add some numbers to it, for those without ED: with Stellar Flare on the target and SotF and factoring in all the Artifact talent bumps, with 48% mastery on gear, Starfall with Stellar Drift does 65.05% Spell Power per AP spent (2602% Spell power). Starsurge (with SotF bonus to empowerments, including all the artifact stuff) does 49.12% SpellPower per AP spent (1966% Spell Power).

In other words Starfall is 32% more powerful single target than Starsurge with Stellar Flare +Stellar Drift + SotF. It seems incredibly unlikely that Nature's Balance + more Starlord usage + Inc makes up that kind of gap. Since Stellar Empowerment scales faster with mastery than the nuke empowerments from starsurge (thanks falling star) that gap only grows larger when you add more Mastery.

Even if you don't take Stellar Drift, and take Nature's balance for some reason instead, Starfall with SotF + Stellar Flare is 12.8% more damage/ap spent than starsurge.

None of that, moreover, factors in that Stellar Flare is astral and so double dips from Circadian Invocation like Starfall and Starsurge. So, it actually gains even more than what I've posted here.

Not only is SotF on a ring powerful because it opens up much more flexibility in general with perma-cheap starfall plus full single target talents, it also revives Stellar Flare as a talent with the way that Starfall interacts with Stellar Flare. They just can't put that on an RNG legendary. Its practical value will make ED and IFE pre-nerfs look like minor buffs.

This just confirms that they really should weaken SotF incredible power by reducing Starfall's cost baseline. Even reducing it to 50 would be very welcome. Ideally, they just put it to 40 baseline and buff Starsurge to keep it ahead single target in terms of D/AP. Just have SotF buff stellar empowerment in the way that it buffs the nuke empowerments.

- - - Updated - - -

Or let's put it another way. Let's look at 24 second cycles, the length of Stellar Flare. To put up Stellar Flare and keep 100% uptime on Starfall, you need 130AP. To do an equivalent amount of damage in those 24 seconds by using Starsurge (and this assumes you cast all of the empowerments) you would need to get off 4.768 starsurges, which would cost ~190 AP. So, the Stellar Flare + Starfall single target cycle over 24 seconds actually buys you 2 extra Starsurges in that window than you'd have if you spent that AP on only Starsurge. If you spec into Nature's Balance instead of Stellar Drift to save some dot refresh GCDs, you'll still gain over a full extra Starsurge by spending your AP on Stellar Flare and keeping up Starfall instead of using Starsurge (~50AP saved).

That math again does not count the benefits of Circadian Invocation.

[Polarthief]

<snip>

That's all fine and dandy, but you also have to consider the maintenance cost of StFl, which is 15 AsP per cast (every 24ish seconds), which is also a global you're not gaining AsP (anywhere from 8 to 15 AsP) but rather losing it (15 AsP), and you're also giving up Incarnation for it. You can't just say "SOTF+StFl makes Starfall best on ST" without considering the other option. Like yeah, if you take StFl, I'm sure Starfall would be better on ST, but is that option better than taking Inc and doing the usual? That's the important distinction unless you're dead set in going StFl, which many of us are not. I'm personally not a fan of a DoT AsP Spender that's very inconvenient to use.

This requires a lot more math that I'm sure @Slippykins will probably do assuming this Soul ring goes through as is.

[Mystikal]

That's all fine and dandy, but you also have to consider the maintenance cost of StFl, which is 15 AsP per cast (every 24ish seconds), which is also a global you're not gaining AsP (anywhere from 8 to 15 AsP) but rather losing it (15 AsP), and you're also giving up Incarnation for it. You can't just say "SOTF+StFl makes Starfall best on ST" without considering the other option. Like yeah, if you take StFl, I'm sure Starfall would be better on ST, but is that option better than taking Inc and doing the usual? That's the important distinction unless you're dead set in going StFl, which many of us are not. I'm personally not a fan of a DoT AsP Spender that's very inconvenient to use.

This requires a lot more math that I'm sure @Slippykins will probably do assuming this Soul ring goes through as is.

Just a very slight correction, the cost of StFl is now 10 AsP. Otherwise, both posts make for an interesting read. I actually really like the idea of being "DoT heavy" with Stellar Empowerment.

[Polarthief]

Just a very slight correction, the cost of StFl is now 10 AsP. Otherwise, both posts make for an interesting read. I actually really like the idea of being "DoT heavy" with Stellar Empowerment.

That's how little I care for inconvenient options like StFl that I forgot they changed the AsP cost, my bad!

Still though, they really should make that thing instant or cost nothing. Why's it gotta be so inconvenient?

[Mystikal]

I agree that it should either be instant, or free-to-cast. Personally, I really like the third DoT and, since I only raid heroic with my guild quite infrequently, I can afford to use it over the "must have" builds for progression. I'm so used to playing StFl that I can probably eke out a bit more damage than most with it.

[Polarthief]

I agree that it should either be instant, or free-to-cast. Personally, I really like the third DoT and, since I only raid heroic with my guild quite infrequently, I can afford to use it over the "must have" builds for progression. I'm so used to playing StFl that I can probably eke out a bit more damage than most with it.

Which is totally fine. I even liked the spell itself, just not the bad QoL the spell suffers from. I rather enjoyed using it on Phase 2 (non-Mythic) Helya and just having a ton of tentacles suffer from it. Good times

But yeah, making it free or instant would make me like it a lot more.

[Slippykins]

That's odd, I thought I posted my preliminary sims for the ring. Remind me tomorrow and I'll stick them in the theorycrafting thread.


The tl;dr was that the ring was ok for ST, pretty good for cleave, and StFl builds still did worse than their Incarnation counterparts.

[Polarthief]

That's odd, I thought I posted my preliminary sims for the ring. Remind me tomorrow and I'll stick them in the theorycrafting thread.


The tl;dr was that the ring was ok for ST, pretty good for cleave, and StFl builds still did worse than their Incarnation counterparts.

Idk if you did/didn't, I was just saying I knew you'd make the math for it (and look, you already did! )

Also by "pretty good for cleave" would you say it's better than a combo of OI/IFE/LATC? I did kinda give up a 925 ring from Botanist on Wednesday under the assumption I'd be rolling with IFE/SotA as my general 2 legendaries, rip me if that's not the case lol.

[Slippykins]

Idk if you did/didn't, I was just saying I knew you'd make the math for it (and look, you already did! )

Also by "pretty good for cleave" would you say it's better than a combo of OI/IFE/LATC? I did kinda give up a 925 ring from Botanist on Wednesday under the assumption I'd be rolling with IFE/SotA as my general 2 legendaries, rip me if that's not the case lol.

I can't quite remember where it was, but I think it was #1 for cleave from the sims. It also suffers from the same issue as OI, in that a lot of its power is through hybrid fights which are not reliably simmed. I was just looking at it preliminarily anyway, when the ring is fully confirmed (and with stats) then I'll be able to say more.

[thedeisel]

That's all fine and dandy, but you also have to consider the maintenance cost of StFl, which is 15 AsP per cast (every 24ish seconds), which is also a global you're not gaining AsP (anywhere from 8 to 15 AsP) but rather losing it (15 AsP), and you're also giving up Incarnation for it. You can't just say "SOTF+StFl makes Starfall best on ST" without considering the other option. Like yeah, if you take StFl, I'm sure Starfall would be better on ST, but is that option better than taking Inc and doing the usual? That's the important distinction unless you're dead set in going StFl, which many of us are not. I'm personally not a fan of a DoT AsP Spender that's very inconvenient to use.

This requires a lot more math that I'm sure @Slippykins will probably do assuming this Soul ring goes through as is.

I didn't see slippy's sims with starfall maintained single target while casting SS to avoid capping AP. My bad if I missed that but I can't find a link anywhere. Right now, though, Pure single target build and regular single target rotation is only a 12% increase over 'memekin build' with maintaining starfall single target while squeezing in extra Starsurges to avoid capping AP.

In any case, I factored in the cost of Stellar Flare (which is only 10).

Even if you don't pick up Stellar Drift, in a 24 second cycle you do more damage single target with Starfall being maintained than Starsurge by quite a bit. For 130 AP you do 150 AP worth of Starsurge Damage. That includes all the empowerments. Starfalling gets you less Starlord usage but it also allows you to replace lower dps and lower AP/s Lunar Strike casts with higher dps and higher AP/s stellar empowerments. You're also getting your dot extensions via NB here (well, you're getting more Sunfire extensions and fewer moonfire extensions).

In other words, Stellar Flare versus Starfall is worth about 20AP per 24 seconds. So, every 48 seconds you get a free extra starsurge to weave in. Without ED, Incarnation isn't worth that much. IFE might help get it close. It's going to be small potatoes difference if it does.

If you trade in your DoT refreshes for more Starfall damage and pick up Stellar Drift, you're getting 190 AP worth of Starsurge damage for 130 AP. You have to refresh sunfires now so you lose a wrath cast every 24 seconds. We'd need a sim to check how much the Stellar Drift damage is worth compared to the lost solar wrath but...I'd bet on the Stellar Drift.

40AP Starfall make Starfall incredibly efficient single target. Already in 7.2.5 with the lost of T19 4pc, it's more efficient than Starsurge. The only thing making Starsurge a better spender single target is the talent build supporting it (starlord, Inc, nb). Adding Stellar Flare to Starfall's damage makes it incredibly potent.

Stellar Flare actually increases the total damage done by Starfall single target more than Stellar Drift. It's just prohibitively expensive without SotF.

- - - Updated - - -

My point with all the above is that Stellar Flare has a very large advantage before you start factoring in Inc's benefits. The way the ring warps the AP/Damage ratios of starfall and starsurge has a massive effect on the spec. That tilts the spec much more towards Starfall. Now the question becomes: which of stellar flare and incarnation plays to the starfall's strengths. It's not very clear at all that that basic starting point goes up more with Inc than Stellar Flare.

If I had to guess, I'd say that stellar flare and inc will be very close and will come down to which other legendary you use and fight length as to whether you get an extra use of incarnation or not.

Advantages of Incarnation: a CD to sync with important damage phases and other CDs
Advantages of Stellar Flare: More damage from dots, so more mobile; keeps more damage on priority target in cleave situation