Broken Isles are Legion's main problem

[Arrowstormen]

The primary issue you describe can be explained as this. WoW is NOT a true MMORPG.

Not a living, persistent world. Cataclysm update aside... WoW's world does not change. Instead WoW is an online themepark game with a new set of rides every 2 years. Legion is the newest set of rides and none of the older rides, the "world", will reflect it because old rides generally sit and collect dust. Again, this is how WoW is not a living world. The static nature of the WoW formula where you might never again have a relevant storyline in Azeroth, Outland, Northrend, Cataclysm zones, Pandaria, Draenor, or Broken Isles GREATLY harms the narrative and nostalgia that would accompany natural storytelling.

With a static world we lose the "feel" of the world. We lose a compelling sense of place and belonging to WoW itself. For example, Suramar is a great place. You will never see it again. Let the implications of that sink in. WoW is great for what it is (online themepark) but that design has serious limitations.

WoW is certainly a MMORPG, you don't need a "living, persistent world" to be a "true" one.

[Naiattavain]

guys i think legion is the worst shape the game has been in. legion is where the game becomes meh? so i unsubbed.

[Venziir]

Warcraft 1 was released 23 years ago.

Back then there was absolutely no mention or idea of The Burning Legion though. First mention of a demon horde came in Warcraft 2, with the subtle mention of Kil'jaeden. The concept of The Burning Legion itself didn't appear until Warcraft 3. Fun fact, originally Blizzard wanted to have the Legion be a playable race in Warcraft 3, but later decided to have the Scourge play the role of "evil, playable race".

[Deleted]

Except it's implied that Argus is the seat of power for the burning legion, but apart of that, sure.

I know, it was sarcasm.

[Kallisto]

It's not implied, it is. In the cutscene with Kil'jaeden in 7.2 he flat out says he sacrificed his home world and we see an image of a Legion infested Argus.

Not it isn't implied it is flat out stated in the Illidan novel. Kil'Jaeden's throne is on Argus where he sits while not out on invasions. It is also known that Sargeras needs the Eredar to keep the demons in line. Without which many will fight among each other to gain superiority than follow him.

[Arrowstormen]

snip

I don't know, most of the main baddies we've fought has only had a couple of figureheads like the Burning Legion.

[Restors]

TL;DR: Broken Isles are important because... reasons? Doesn't seem convincing.

Well, Broken Isles, or Tomb of Sargeras to be precise, is the perfect location for the final push. If my memory are correct, thats where Aegwynn stored the Avatar of Sargeras, where Gul'dan wanted to soak in his power.

So from a lore and magic point of view, I don't see this place as failed. Would rather be interesting if Burning Legion tryed to harvest that power for themselves. But they are more interested in the Nightwell and the Pillars of Creation.

Broken Isles are also nostalgic from novels and WC3, Blizzard tying Legion expansion with the isles were kind of expected. And to be honest, I finally got to experience that place, I have always wondered bout it.

[Wildberry]

I was actually just discussing this with a friend the other day. Story-wise, even ignoring major hiccups like Chosen-one-Illidan, Legion has been underwhelming as Hell.

The first time the Burning Legion invasion, it resulted in the sundering of the world. The most previous, proper, Burning Legion invasion resulted in all sorts of drastic changes to the world. Scourging of Lordaeron, destruction of Dalaran, exodus to Kalimdor, razing of Quel'thalas, etc.

It's a shame we didn't see any major changes to the world this time. It really softens the threat of the Legion. Never mind the fact that they cheated themselves out of a potential expansion/plotline by refusing to have the Legion pull a Scourge 2.0 (Or Horde 3.0) and engineer some awful force to serve as a precursor to their actual invasion.

[Deleted]

I feel the same about the Broken Isles, they are irrelevant and indifferent, however beautiful a continent it may be.

In Wrath/Cata/MoP, expansions took place in Azeroth similar to Legion's basic areas, the whole respective continent was connected to the story.
In Legion, most of the pre-7.2 content was irrelevant and in some cases completely disconnected, like Stormheim and ToV, which is a great standalone story but would fit into any expansion. It feels like the pre launch Broken Shore scenario, the 7.2 zone and instances and of course the upcoming Argus are the main areas of this expansion, while the Broken Isles were filler zones with contained demonic influence.

The Burning Legion's presence during launch to 7.2 felt as strong as WoD's pre-6.2 era, and the Broken Isles themselves felt indifferent and disconnected from Legion. But I believe that this was intended, as they wanted people to take a break from demons before introducing more of them, and this is pretty clear from the Legion Invasions.
We had all the time in the world to find Artifact weapons, collect the Pillards of Creation, infiltrate the Nighthold and eventually take down Gul'dan and only then did they started invading the zones to stop us. The Burning Legion was after the Pillars as well anyway, why would they not invade earlier? Bad timing I guess

The pre launch event was more connected to the expansion than the Isles themselves, but they did a pretty good job introducing interesting disconnected areas. If anything, the content until now felt like a prologue and that they eventually started building the main story in 7.2 .

[AbalDarkwind]

Warcraft 1 was released 23 years ago.

They mean that the Burning Legion wasn't important in the story until Warcraft III. Kil'jaeden was important in Warcraft II behind the scenes, and Sargeras was a curious character thanks to Aegwynn and the Tomb of Sargeras, but there was no BL story at the time.

On topic: The Broken Isles are important, primarily, because of the Tomb of Sargeras and Suramar (And Azsuna, which is, basically, the ruins of Suramar's suburbs). Those are major lore locations that are connected to the BL. Furthermore, Val'sharah, although never named, is important for numerous reasons including being the birthplace of Druidism, housing Black Rook Hold, and having a World Tree. Stormheim and Highmountain are a bit more removed from older lore as they were never mentioned as being distinct areas, but Blizzard did a decent enough job connecting them to the larger world.

Before Legion, I probably would have agreed about the Broken Isles; other than the ruins of Surmar and the Tomb of Sargeras, they seemed minor. However, by having Suramar intact, revealing Val'Sharah's importance, and integrating Highmountain and Stormheim with ancient lore, I feel Blizzard did a good job making them the epicenter of the Legion's invasion.

The lore of the Isles makes the current invasion feel like a natural follow-up to the War of the Ancients, other than in scale, and I'd call that a success.

[Shakari]

The primary issue you describe can be explained as this. WoW is NOT a true MMORPG.

Not a living, persistent world. Cataclysm update aside... WoW's world does not change. Instead WoW is an online themepark game with a new set of rides every 2 years. Legion is the newest set of rides and none of the older rides, the "world", will reflect it because old rides generally sit and collect dust. Again, this is how WoW is not a living world. The static nature of the WoW formula where you might never again have a relevant storyline in Azeroth, Outland, Northrend, Cataclysm zones, Pandaria, Draenor, or Broken Isles GREATLY harms the narrative and nostalgia that would accompany natural storytelling.

With a static world we lose the "feel" of the world. We lose a compelling sense of place and belonging to WoW itself. For example, Suramar is a great place. You will never see it again. Let the implications of that sink in. WoW is great for what it is (online themepark) but that design has serious limitations.

Thing is you pretty much describe every other MMORG out there, none that I have ever seen have a truly living persistent world as you describe it, some do it a bit better or differently but still not a true MMORG, feel free to correct me here as I'm sure over the years I've missed some of them being announced or released.

Using suramar as an example, if you were to see it again, you would travel back to the current one in the broken isles, why would a new updated one appear? that brings about the time travelling gimic of warlords which was a little odd imo for an expansion.

[Kelathos]

WoW is certainly a MMORPG, you don't need a "living, persistent world" to be a "true" one.

Then we'll just have to disagree on what an online world should be. I said WoW is a great themepark, the best, but its persistent world is lacking. Which brings us to this very topic. Once you've leveled up, the older zones have no gameplay reason to even exist. Blizzard sees this, they added a few callbacks with class quests. It'd take a lot more than that to resolve the issue the OP mentions.

An imitation of Guild War2's living story, happening in old zones, would go a long ways towards addressing it in a limited way without remaking WoW's design.

[Sylvaeres]

Legion is supposed to be the culmination of a 23 year long story. We are finally confronting the Burning Legion for the last time. The problem? All of the action is happening on some godforsaken island in the middle of nowhere. Yes, Blizzard tried to play up the important of Broken Isles, e.g. Suramar is an ancient elven city only second to Zin-Azshari in grandeur, Val'sharah is the birthplace of druidism, Highmountain houses Neltharion's lair, Stormheim is more or less the center of titanforged presence on Azeroth, Azsuna is kinda... meh? Broken Shore is implied to be one of the most important locations on Azeroth and even N'Zoth and Y'shaarj fought for control over it many years ago.

Up until Gamescon 2015 however Broken Isles were just a chain of islands with a couple of elven ruins. None of the new lore had any build up. If we look at Cataclysm (which had a similar theme to Legion), all of the zones had some kind of build up. People had been speculating about Uldum since day 1 of WoW, Hyjal was also an established location with important lore, and so was Grim Batol and by extension Twilight Highlands. Vash'jir didn't have any build up but then again it was one of the most controversial zones in WoW's history. The Elemental Planes felt epic for obvious reasons.

I think Legion would feel FAR better if all of the action took place in previously established locations or at the very least had more Legion-controlled zones. Why Blizzard didn't hint at Stormheim and Odyn during WotLK is beyond me and the same goes for all other zones as well, they had years to come up with some lore for them.

TL;DR: Broken Isles are important because... reasons? Doesn't seem convincing.

3 words- Tomb of Sargeras. I just unwrapped your logic in 3 words. /the end

[Sansnom]

I think Legion would feel FAR better if all of the action took place in previously established locations or at the very least had more Legion-controlled zones. Why Blizzard didn't hint at Stormheim and Odyn during WotLK is beyond me and the same goes for all other zones as well, they had years to come up with some lore for them.

TL;DR: Broken Isles are important because... reasons? Doesn't seem convincing.

It would be. However, from a gameplay design perspective, it is not possible, or rather tricky t do. Unless they do a lot of phasing. You have to consider how Legion would affect the zones a few expansion on from now.

[Kelathos]

Thing is you pretty much describe every other MMORG out there, none that I have ever seen have a truly living persistent world as you describe it, some do it a bit better or differently but still not a true MMORG, feel free to correct me here as I'm sure over the years I've missed some of them being announced or released.

Sandbox style games try, but they fail by not addressing the strengths of WoW's themepark design. It's easy to lure players in by taking them on a journey. More difficult to sell them on forging their own path. So yes, after WoW's genre defining success everyone tried to copy their themepark. So far it appears no one has found a strong middle ground to break the mold.

Using suramar as an example, if you were to see it again, you would travel back to the current one in the broken isles, why would a new updated one appear? that brings about the time travelling gimic of warlords which was a little odd imo for an expansion.

Speaking of Warlords, Blizzard gave us a new Blasted Lands for level 90 players. It did not have many quests or much of a narrative but picture a bigger change for Suramar. Let's say next expansion Surmar becomes a semi friendly / neutral capital city. Blizzard can flag that version to be "current" for level 120+ players. Blizzard could iterate on the quests and show us a future storyline for that zone. They could deal with Nightborn integration into the world, and witness the Night Elves and Blood Elves fighting over the city.

This way we could have a "living story" style update to other zones in WoW. Blizzard could update Lordaeron with a Stormgarde campaign. For the OP, we could have experienced several stories with the Legion invasion, located at Stormwind and other places in Azeroth. There is unlimited potential in storytelling - it's just that the game design is too limited to tell them. It's a glaring issue as WoW ages and the old rides sit collecting dust. The more zones Blizzard adds, the more they leave behind. The OP feels that loss. We all do.

It would not be easy, it would take development time, but Blizzard should establish a living world segment of the dev team. They have plenty of story to tell.

[Shakou]

The primary issue you describe can be explained as this. WoW is NOT a true MMORPG.

Makes perfect sense!



- - - Updated - - -

They mean that the Burning Legion wasn't important in the story until Warcraft III.

Rubbish, the Burning Legion was simply not front and center until WC3, they were not "unimportant" until then.

[JustRob]

I think this is definitely a part of it. Legion being a Cataclysm-styled expansion would have been a lot more convincing story wise, but honestly I feel like Legion's main narrative problem is the Burning Legion themselves. They're just not a very compelling bunch of antagonists to build an entire expansion around. The most interesting part of their invasion is the way they've worked through other races like the Nightborne (who actually are interesting).

I think the Legion work as a looming intangible threat that show up every now and again to play moderate roles, but when you make them the central focus of the story it becomes glaringly apparent just how shallow they are. All of the Legion characters are just incredibly bland moustache-twirlers who all have the same basic motivation of "I'm evil, I'mma do evil things", and we dispatch them in such routine order that they never have any chance to grow beyond that (not that they show much potential for growth anyway). Beyond Kil'jaeden and Sargeras, the Legion doesn't really have any strongly defined characters associated with it, and they've barely done anything with those two big names to make them anything more than figureheads.

I feel like the Legion are really lacking in depth and personality because of this. It's really hard to get emotionally invested in your antagonists when they're all so disposable and one-note. The most interesting Burning Legion character we've seen was probably Varimathras, but that arc is long since over. Making Kil'jaeden a focal point and digging more into his backstory with Velen would've been an awesome way to flesh out this expansion's antagonists and get us to care about them, but beyond one cutscene it's looking like Kil'jaeden's main role is going to be as a mid-expansion raid boss.

Illidan, Archimonde, Velen, Kel'Thuzad, Ner'zhul, Gul'dan, Tichondrius, Balnazzar, Mal'Ganis, Azshara, Xavius, Medivh. But nah you're totally right the only two defined characters with ties to the Legion are Sargeras and Kil'jaeden. Sure brah.

[Dalheim]

Illidan, Archimonde, Velen, Kel'Thuzad, Ner'zhul, Gul'dan, Tichondrius, Balnazzar, Mal'Ganis, Azshara, Xavius, Medivh. But nah you're totally right the only two defined characters with ties to the Legion are Sargeras and Kil'jaeden. Sure brah.

Kel'Thuzad was with the Lich King, not the Legion. He was only pretending to be with the Legion as ordered by Ner'zhul/Lich King

[JustRob]

Kel'Thuzad was with the Lich King, not the Legion. He was only pretending to be with the Legion as ordered by Ner'zhul/Lich King

Whatever, he's still associated with the Legion, even if he isn't on their side. He still played a big part in their second invasion.

[Wilfire]

3 words- Tomb of Sargeras. I just unwrapped your logic in 3 words. /the end

The Tomb didn't have any importance at all up until Legion, it was just some ruins that contained the dead husk of a broken golem. Illidan looted everything of note that was there during WC3. The only reason it seems important now is because Blizzard retconned the shit out of it and made it some kind of a mystical place of power. Same goes for Surumar, it was destroyed up until Blizzard decided to retcon it.

The bottomline is, Blizzard can twist and retcon their lore enough to make any random island in the middle of nowhere suddenly become the focal point of world-ending events. Will that make the said island a compelling place to visit? NO! Places need some kind of build up to be exciting.

Draenor was exciting to visit because we knew from established lore that it was a very savage world unlike Azeroth (we already had references to mysterious "Earth Giants" back in WC2).

Northrend was exciting to visit for obvious reasons.

Pandaria was less exciting to visit (go back and read some threads from 2012, a lot of people were very unexcited about Pandaria), but at least it didn't have heavy retconning like Legion does and Blizzard put a lot of effort into making it work.

I'm not saying Blizzard can't or shouldn't create new lore. There weren't any mentions of Uldum prior to vanilla WoW but Blizzard hyped it up over the years and people were excited to explore it during Cataclysm. The same can't be said for Broken Isles.