Ghostcrawler - Loot Should Not Be "too Predictible"

[Deleted]

World of Warcraft have always been like this. Even for items that aren't legendary. WoD/MoP legendary quests provided always loot/items with RNG quantity. Not sure how you can call that rewarding but okay. I mean, you just had to do the quest line. You had no real obstacles in getting it except the time when you get it. That's what you probably like more. I don't.

One of the reason I don't is that every player who wants to raid must have legendary. For those who don't, well it doesn't matter if they do 1 year quest line or they get it on RNG. I even think getting it on RNG is probably faster than having it 1 year later.

You disqualify your statement when you say "always" together with WoD/MoP. First random stats started with crafted items in Cata, the greens which sometimes procced to blues, and had random stats. MoP took this a bit further with random warforged upgrades and random stats in TI tokens. "Always" is blatantly wrong in this regard.

[bufferunderrun]

Exactly this.

Legion's loot system isn't designed to be rewarding. It's designed to get you to spend more time than ever before. Stay on that treadmill, kids! Those subscription profits aren't going to make themselves!

yea keep going....

[Fabinas]

Are you saying that you are not pleasantly surprised when you get a 30+ ilvl titanforged item?

You can't make this stuff up people, lol.

I got one yesterday from a dungeon WQ. It ended up same ilvl with a mythic+ chest loot i already had. I sharded my +30 ilvl titanforged. I am pleasantly surprised when the titanforges item actually is a slight upgrade. Else i feel my luck was wasted.

[In Ogres We Trust]

No, what you're describing is breaking the reward system of the game completely, which ruins the excitement of killing new bosses, because chances are you already have better items than what the boss dropped. Some friends of mine gave mythic Gul'dan loot away for transmog on their first kill, because nobody needed it. That is a fucked up system.

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No, in past expansions getting BiS was realistic(which made those items more exciting when they dropped, because you knew you weren't replacing them, and you knew you EARNED that item by killing a hard boss). In Legion there's no fucking way you're getting BiS, because of the absurd amount of RNG involved.

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It's at the very least interesting to hear what he has to say, even if you may not agree with it. Like, the part OP quoted I agree with(RNG is "necessary", just not to the degree it's present in Legion), and the part he left out makes that even more so, because GC specificially says that there's a limit to how much RNG is good for a game(depending on the type of game)

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No, it's bad design because it completely breaks the reward structure of the game. In the past it has always been "do hard content, get good loot"(which makes sense, because loot is a reward), now it's "pray to RNGesus that you get good loot".

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The Legion system isn't "rewarding", because "rewarding" implies you actually did something that's worth being rewarded, which is the exact opposite of what Legion's system tries to do. It doesn't reward you for doing hard content or putting in effort, it rewards you for being a lucker dog.

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Nothing wrong with not wanting to design a game for the lowest common denominator purely to make more money.

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He's not wrong, you can gear up multiple characters, there just isn't an actual "end" point anymore, which sucks.

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Pretty much this. When a boss dies and an item drops, that should be the item, end of story, no random chances for extra ilevels/sockets. Cata and T14 had the best loot systems the game has ever had when it comes to this.

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There's no difference between tuning it around gear and tuning it around output. Gear is what enables that output based on your skill level.

I agree with this entire post.

P.S. The system forces you to stay with a single character and a single specialization, and the RNG on top of the RNG and the grinding on top of the grinding is retarded. Remove TF/WF and replace them with the upgrade vendor (from before), and remove the RNG on top of the RNG by bringing back Reforging (assuming that we're in agreement that Tertiary stats are beneficial).

[Heathy]

ppl talk about treadmills, but they want static boring loot, 1 size fits all everyone wearing exactly the same items about as boring as the loot system has ever been. combined with the valor farming, so again we should go back to a second treadmill of badge capping every week. 'must... earn... 4k valor....' not a treadmill either mind.

ppl so blind they'd replace one rng grind for another and not even see the difference. or that its exactly the same grind with a different smell.

the only problem ppl seem to have with wf/tf is that its not easy to ilvl cap each tier, which affects ppls ocd, just because your not guaranteed to reach the ilvl cap before its raised again, doesn't mean the game is broken it means your not lucky enough.

seems like a minor problem to me, compared to the amount of replayability it gives to 5 man content, in some way i think it'll always exist so that incentive remains. unless they plan on scrapping mythic plus there is always going to be gear from now on that scales from blue to just under mythic raid tier.

the difference between balancing content around a specific output rather than specific gear means that it doesn't matter where you get your gear, your not forced down a linear path of gear acquisition to overcome the next challenge, today you just need to meet a specific ilvl. if the content is balanced around you wearing a tailored set of static loot your stuck farming that one upgrade path until you get all the pieces to move on.

I prefer the system today where upgrades can come from anywhere and your not locked to the exact same progression path as everyone else makes the game feel a bit more dynamic. its not the perfect system but its better than those that came before. unless you suffer from ocd it seems.

there is nothing wrong with wanting to reach ilvl cap, or 'get the best possible gear', i think there is probably a lot more prestige in rolling your set with tertiaries and sockets today than there ever was in just getting the set bonuses. as a healer i don't find the tertiary stats that great or beneficial, i mean i've had 20% avoidance but i can't really say if it was noticeable at all. the tertiary stats could either be better, or just easier to stack, they seem too random to me to be something you want to rely on.

in the end if you only want to play the game to get the best possible gear, that isn't going to be possible until tier 21 anyway. during the final tier is your best chance at trying to farm titan forged everything. at that point the only gear you'll get to replace what you farm is gear from the next expansion. if you want to try to ilvl cap, you might as well wait until then to try to do so. but this has been the same for every expansion, the best possible gear isn't obtainable until the last tier.

[Kralljin]

the only problem ppl seem to have with wf/tf is that its not easy to ilvl cap each tier, which affects ppls ocd, just because your not guaranteed to reach the ilvl cap before its raised again

It doesn't have anything to do with OCD.

If even Mythic Loot is good step below the best possible it turns killing Mythic bosses into a joke.

Seriously, you have 905 items on almost every slot within a few weeks of farming Nighthold Mythic, then you're stuck on a point where you rely on WF / TF for Upgrades.

I'd be fine if the difference between "Normal" items and WF / TF wouldn't be that big on Mythic, but 15+ Ilvl difference is a major difference in quality.

I am currently sitting on 914 for ~5 weeks without any major upgrade coming my way, if this was at least close to current maximum ilvl i'd be fine, but it's way off, multiple people in my raid have 918-920, simply because they have more luck with TF items.

If certain items simply aren't dropping, fine i'm used to this, but getting inferior gear simply because of bad luck feels bad on the long run.

For me, the TF system as a whole can stay, but there needs to be way to reliably reach items that are close to the current maximum Ilvl, 6+ Ilvl as it was in MoP / WoD was a fine middleground.

[Heathy]

its the same for me and heroic, I don't raid mythic but the only upgrades i get from heroic have to titanforge.

this to me is more a problem of waiting for ToS to open rather than a failure of the wf/tf lotto. if ToS were open now, this wouldn't be a problem.
i think most of us have been ready to start the next tier now for at least 2-3 weeks some ppl probably longer. but this period happens during every tier, its pretty much alt levelling time if your playing semi-hardcore, or every day, getting saved to most things every week the game is never going to be able to keep up with you. you are going to reach that breakpoint, in the past it was no different mind, once you got all your gear there was nothing else to run that content for at least today you can still get minor upgrades to your gear after you've already farmed it for every good drop.

[Naiattavain]

i agree with greg too on loot it doesn't seem meaningful after it drops anymore. it feels like how the hell did that happen and why cant i use my legendary in pvp? shit

[WowIsDead64]

As I've already stated in the past, I prefer following loot system: loot system, where amount of effort, needed to get reward, is fixed, but RNG helps you to do it faster, instead of doing exactly the opposite.

I have such loot system now - in Tanaan. And I don't need anything else. I need 13-14 items to be upgraded from 650 to 695. One item once in 2 days. It's 26-28 days. It would be boring, but random ilvl upgrade and even Empowered Apexis Fragment can drop at any moment. Plus stats are random, so I have to balance between upgrading items as fast, as possible, and trying to get BIS stats. That's the game, I love. That's, where RNG works 100% properly.

Emm... I want to add, that may be current loot system works exactly the same way. I mean, Blizzard nerf droprates of items with time, so it becomes easier and easier to obtain things, so at some moment you will have them all anyway - you just need to participate and that's it. And it's almost the same, as knowing exact date, when you will get certain item. But that's, again, system, where it's Blizzard, who control, when to give rewards to you. And I don't like such game. I want to know this date in advance and decide, whether it's worth to do this content or not.

[Kralljin]

this to me is more a problem of waiting for ToS to open rather than a failure of the wf/tf lotto. if ToS were open now, this wouldn't be a problem.

While not untrue, releasing a new tier every 3 months is by no means a decent solution.

I mean the idea behind the WF system is make to make content last longer, not forcing another reason to release new content even sooner.

The current raid schedule in terms of release is "fine", there's a decent amount of time between tiers.

once you got all your gear there was nothing else to run that content for at least today you can still get minor upgrades to your gear after you've already farmed it for every good drop.

But those upgrades aren't minor, that is core issue, you can't switch a 900 Trinket for a 925 Trinket and call the Upgrade "minor", it's a major upgrade.

[LanToaster]

Theres a fine line between:
Not enough RNG, and to Much RNG

And I agree as Casual:
Gearing at the moment isnt fun. It feels too grindy. Getting once a week a shot at that specific BiS raidboss item is fine. But essentially needing to get each and every possible Item for a chance of it beein upgrade is no fun.

Also, those ItemTokens for NetherShards are a prime example of "Not fun".

[Naiattavain]

fuck world of Looser-craft and all the stuck up assholes who play it now fuck you all go to fucking hell all of you assholes. fuck this moderator team on mmo-champion bunch of fascist elitest pricks fuck tards ,,|,,

Infracted

[Heathy]

would you say you really needed to farm 925 items to be viable for the next tier though? or is the 905-915 a decent enough level to at least start progress, no doubt there are still enough clears left, and even when ToS is released you can still go back for that extra chance per week at having something roll higher.

there is a point i feel where you need certain gear, and then a point where any more gear just makes things slightly easier or take less time. its not as if the ilvl you need is behind the rng, its the bonus ilvl that is behind the rng. you can still progress without it, getting it is the good feeling because you know it won't be easily replaceable and that it will help make content marginally easier to overcome. if that is the baseline its just a check box again. the baseline is the base item, the bonus makes it last a bit longer. 925 is the ilvl cap at the moment but that will change i don't see much point in trying to reach full 925 because tiers don't last years. the ilvl is probably going to reach 1000 by the end. maybe even 1100 as the final cap? or perhaps 1050.

i'm happy with my 907, i'm sure normal will be breezy and heroic should be somewhat challenging but do able. if i can reach 910 before 7.2.5 that will be cool but i don't think ill need it.

each tier is almost entirely a self contained progression anyway, you can get 880 right now farming nethershards, getting 895 is probably not that difficult from there, normal ToS probably requires something like 890-895 with heroic in the 900-905 range and mythic 910-915 you should be able to progress through the difficulties of the raid, gearing up in normal will let you do heroic, heroic to mythic. there isn't really a problem in the progression or the requirements. honestly if there wasn't a grind for the best possible gear everyone would have the best possible gear.

[kamuimac]

In a recent post by Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street, he said the following about Loot:



I bolded and underlined for emphasis.

I agree with Greg here, RNG in the loot game needs to be in the game. If everything were predictable, gearing up doesn't feel exciting anymore.

Think about how you currently gear up an alt. Grinding nethershards is an absolute predictable way to gear up. You grind 400 shards, you can buy an 850 piece. You grind 5k shards, you can get an 880 piece. Boring.

If dungeons only dropped honor / valor tokens, and you used them to just buy gear you wanted from vendors... Boring.

RNG has its place in MMOs, and it should absolutely stay. Anyone who thinks otherwise, please present a logical argument for why it shouldn't be a part of an MMO, especially one like WoW.

can we stop quoting him ? he got fired liek 4 years ago ? and now hes a nobody in riot just trying to relive his glorious past .

just stop beating this dead horse for the love of god.

[Kralljin]

would you say you really needed to farm 925 items to be viable for the next tier though? or is the 905-915 a decent enough level to at least start progress, no doubt there are still enough clears left.

This is honestly irrelevant for the discussion, might as well start asking myself why i won't just wait with raiding until all bosses are nerfed and can just roll through there.

This is about how the loot feels currently, once ToS hits the thing receives a reset anyway, Heroic ToS drops higher loot than mythic Nighthold.

and even when ToS is released you can still go back for that extra chance per week at having something roll higher.

There comes a point where you want to be "done" with some content of the game because you completed it often enough.

After farming Nighthold for multiple months, the last thing you want to is raiding Nighthold once per week.

[Heathy]

waiting for nerfs is entirely up to you, if the content your trying to do is +10 ilvls for you then your ready to do it. what else can you really ask for. playing the loot lotto after that is entirely up to you. its not like farming for rare drops has ever been something that you could ever rely on happening, you just did it enough until it happened or you don't, if your going to blow past 925 ilvl in less than 2 months does it really matter if you reach it before then?

if your ready to start progress on ToS then you ARE DONE with the content obviously.

[Jaylock]

can we stop quoting him ? he got fired liek 4 years ago ? and now hes a nobody in riot just trying to relive his glorious past .

just stop beating this dead horse for the love of god.

He didn't get fired. He left out of his own volition to take on a new and different situation. His words are still relevant because he was the LEAD designer on WoW for many years. He has street cred. He is knowledgeable and what he says is almost gospel for WoW.

He makes more money than he did at. Blizzard.

[Kralljin]

waiting for nerfs is entirely up to you, if the content your trying to do is +10 ilvls for you then your ready to do it. what else can you really ask for. playing the loot lotto after that is entirely up to you.

Playing the game is also up to me, right?

Honestly, the "it's up to you" argument is kinda stupid here.

its not like farming for rare drops has ever been something that you could ever rely on happening

Difference was, these "rare drops" were usually restricted to a few slots, like the elusive Trinket that everybody wants.

Now your entire equipment is basically a "rare drop".

you just did it enough until it happened or you don't, if your going to blow past 925 ilvl in less than 2 months does it really matter if you reach it before then?

To me, gearing might be slower, i'd be fine with that, because as said multiple times by now, the Titanforged system is an attempt to keep content relevant for longer time.

The issue is that this has now turned into an extreme RNG fest where there's no guarantee to receive loot that is even close to the best possible.

[Marrilaife]

the difference between balancing content around a specific output rather than specific gear means that it doesn't matter where you get your gear, your not forced down a linear path of gear acquisition to overcome the next challenge, today you just need to meet a specific ilvl. if the content is balanced around you wearing a tailored set of static loot your stuck farming that one upgrade path until you get all the pieces to move on.

The difference is when content is balanced around specific output and we end up with people having more output due to titanforge so raid ends up feeling "too easy" like EN, and then content starts being balanced around higher output like pre-nerf hc / mythic TOV or pre-nerf second half of mythic NH where people have to bust their asses off farming for tf and traits to even stand a chance, and when they finally kill the boss, they don't get meaningful upgrades because they already had to bust their asses off for more gear than usual.

Yes, it doesn't matter where you get the gear from, but it matters if the boss is tuned for the typical audience to have 15 ilvls less than it drops, or 5. In the first case, they often have more, trivializing the boss. In second case, the loot dropped is often feeling not rewarding.

[Heathy]

it doesn't change the fact that the content isn't balanced around needing to ilvl cap yourself, if you want to try to do that, its up to you. arguing about optional personal goals is the stupid part about this. no one needs to be ilvl capped to progress the ilvl cap is there to stop it becoming even more trivial, now were arguing that getting better gear makes content trivial as if this is some sort of new phenomenon. getting better gear is always going to make content trivial. thats largely the point of even bothering to gear up in the first place.

its not a bad thing that some content is tuned higher, it actually makes the challenge that much nicer when you overcome it. if the game forces you to farm a bit that isn't the end of the world. i'm just trying to point out that there is a difference between wanting the best gear and realistically needing the best possibly rolled gear to actually progress. wanting the best gear keeps you playing, actually needing it to progress would make progress nearly impossible. i think you either are happy doing the content and feeling it get slightly easier every week as ppl get better at it and more geared, or you get as much ilvl as you are happy with and stop caring and play alts.

it seems as though there is enough time to either spent maximising loot chances on one character in an attempt to reach some high near ilvl cap number or, you can just play multiple alts and get them all to some sort of middle ground.