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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Probably because game development works much differently then other businesses. Shocker
    What a cop out. This is exactly what I'm talking about! Making excuses to let a game developers off the hook.

    And the worst part is that it's so selective. Some game companies get away with it(Bethesda, Blizzard, and others), while other game companies get ridiculed for it(UbiSoft). People need to have some consistency. Stop treating publishers like they're your trusted loyal friends, and start treating them like you would if you went into a restaurant and found a hair in your food. Or if the pizza you ordered was wrong, or late.

    Why do you think so many game companies keep trying to push for pre-orders on unfinished games, and deliver buggy garbage on launch day? Sure, they can patch it later, but why are people so willing to pay for unfinished products? And then when there's crap like Day-1 DLC, people just roll over and call it good. Why?

    Until people start actually holding game companies accountable for this kind of garbage, they'll just keep doing it.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2017-05-15 at 04:59 AM.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Phinx View Post
    I don't believe they scrapped it for Argus. Argus seems like something that's pretty much set in stone and not just something you come up with while looking for a replacement for an island.
    I can believe it- an example possibility is that they originally wanted Argus to be an expansion, then decided to make it the 7.3 patch, and to condense Legion, scrapped Thal'dranath; another possibility is that Thal'dranath was originally going to be more heavily Azshara/Naga focused, and they decided they'd rather dedicate the next or a future expansion to an expanded version of that concept, and cut it for Argus.

    They cut it early enough in development that it's not hard to imaging them creating something else fairly expansive like Argus in its place- Thal'dranath was barely a concept, and the only development we ever saw of it was untextured landmass, its location on the world map, and the concept itself. That's very little work lost.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Daetur View Post
    I can believe it- an example possibility is that they originally wanted Argus to be an expansion, then decided to make it the 7.3 patch, and to condense Legion, scrapped Thal'dranath; another possibility is that Thal'dranath was originally going to be more heavily Azshara/Naga focused, and they decided they'd rather dedicate the next or a future expansion to an expanded version of that concept, and cut it for Argus.

    They cut it early enough in development that it's not hard to imaging them creating something else fairly expansive like Argus in its place- Thal'dranath was barely a concept, and the only development we ever saw of it was untextured landmass, its location on the world map, and the concept itself. That's very little work lost.
    Perhaps Blizzard (correctly, imo) came to the conclusion a third Legion-focused expansion would be seen in poor taste by its playerbase.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2017-05-15 at 05:25 AM. Reason: a word

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    The big difference was Farahlon was discussed in some detail and then later scrapped. So it sparked the interest of players as they started to hype it.
    To add to this, there was even some construction for Farahlon. Doing some google can find some mini maps of it. All they had done was a harbor, but it was definitely at least work in progress, not just an idea.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Perhaps Blizzard (correctly, imo) came to the conclusion a third Legion-focused expansion would be seen in poor taste by its playerbase.
    Demon fatigue, yes. They wanted to avoid another Orc fatigue-like issue.

    In my opinion, we could have temporarily sealed the portal to Argus and had a filler expansion, probably south seas / naga related with some foreboding "killing Azshara is the final key for N'zoth" or something stupid, THEN gone to Argus, then come back for N'zoth's awakening/freedom/whatever. Y'know, split it up a little.

    I'm mostly just going to be unsatisfied if N'zoth and Azshara are used up in one expac, but hey, they're doing it to Argus, Sargeras, the Legion, the Emerald Nightmare, Helheim/the Shadowlands all in one expansion, so.

  5. #125
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    Broken Shore. Since Thal'dranath was going to be another Elven ruin Zone and they figured people would be over the Elven stuff after Aszhara, Val'sharah and Suramar were all Elven heavy areas.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    What a cop out. This is exactly what I'm talking about! Making excuses to let a game developers off the hook.

    And the worst part is that it's so selective. Some game companies get away with it(Bethesda, Blizzard, and others), while other game companies get ridiculed for it(UbiSoft). People need to have some consistency. Stop treating publishers like they're your trusted loyal friends, and start treating them like you would if you went into a restaurant and found a hair in your food. Or if the pizza you ordered was wrong, or late.

    Why do you think so many game companies keep trying to push for pre-orders on unfinished games, and deliver buggy garbage on launch day? Sure, they can patch it later, but why are people so willing to pay for unfinished products? And then when there's crap like Day-1 DLC, people just roll over and call it good. Why?

    Until people start actually holding game companies accountable for this kind of garbage, they'll just keep doing it.
    Your examples are asinine.

    Thal'dranath being changed in the concept and construction stage of Alpha would be like you complaining that a Restaurant went through 5 different Menu Designs before settling on what they wanted.

    People that get upset over CONCEPTUAL DESIGNS in Videogames getting changed are just dunces.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Dracula View Post
    Your examples are asinine.

    Thal'dranath being changed in the concept and construction stage of Alpha would be like you complaining that a Restaurant went through 5 different Menu Designs before settling on what they wanted.

    People that get upset over CONCEPTUAL DESIGNS in Videogames getting changed are just dunces.
    Oh, so we've gone straight to insulting people who disagree with our point of view? I'm not even sure why I bother...

    It's only ONE EXAMPLE of an entire array of garbage that game companies like Blizzard get free passes on. They're advertising things which they're not delivering on. Why is that acceptable? Do you even have an answer?
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2017-05-15 at 06:09 AM.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Oh, so we've gone straight to insulting people who disagree with our point of view? I'm not even sure why I bother...
    Because it isn't a point of view, its a fact of design. Especially Media. hence why things like concept art/ideas/stories exist in every facet of media, be it Music, Movies, TV or Video games.

    People being unable to understand that isn't the problem of normal functioning adults.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Oh, so we've gone straight to insulting people who disagree with our point of view? I'm not even sure why I bother...

    It's only ONE EXAMPLE of an entire array of garbage that game companies like Blizzard get free passes on. They're advertising things which they're not delivering on. Why is that acceptable? Do you even have an answer?
    Brainstorming about what a company wants to do in their next expansion or coming out and saying this is definitely being developed are different things. It's players who jump to conclusions based on emotions that causes hype and let downs.

    I've worked in software development for 19 years. There's hundreds of idea, many that make it to beta customers before being scrapped because it didn't fit, wouldn't work right or there just wasn't enough resources to do it correctly.
    Last edited by Tharkkun; 2017-05-15 at 06:37 AM.
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  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Vichan View Post
    false. they already said they were no longer pushing for that well before legion ever happened
    What? Do you think they start planning expansion 5 minutes before announcement? They only could change their mind around 6.2, when they saw how Warlords turned out and how Legion production is slow despite throwing more manpower.

    Or they just have more ambitious plans for 7.2, but decided to make 7.3 bigger instead. After they created separate order halls and separate questlines for every class and profession (even in 7.2) - it is stupid to call them lazy. We won't know until 7.3 - if Argus is just another small patch zone, well it won't be really "something better".

  10. #130
    Who the fuck cares, people get so obsessed about things that are literally just one word on a map at Blizzcon.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    Brainstorming about what a company wants to do in their next expansion or coming out and saying this is definitely being developed are different things. It's players who jump to conclusions based on emotions that causes hype and let downs.

    I've worked in software development for 19 years. There's hundreds of idea, many that make it to beta customers before being scrapped because it didn't fit, wouldn't work right or there just wasn't enough resources to do it correctly.
    Which is fair. However, do you take your brainstorming ideas and put them on a giant screen behind you while talking at a panel during one of the largest gaming conventions in the industry which is SPECIFICALLY designed to advertise your products? Probably not. And if you did, why would you think players would be in the wrong for thinking it was something you were going to do with the game?

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Which is fair. However, do you take your brainstorming ideas and put them on a giant screen behind you while talking at a panel during one of the largest gaming conventions in the industry which is SPECIFICALLY designed to advertise your products? Probably not. And if you did, why would you think players would be in the wrong for thinking it was something you were going to do with the game?
    Except Thal'dranath was never once discussed at Blizzcon, during a Q&A, advertised, or developed. Farahlon we all agree they screwed up on and Blizzard admitted they should've waited before talking about it. WOD was full of this because they ran out of resources to complete things. But other than WOD there really aren't many features they talked about that aren't in the game. Speculation yes. But Blizzcon is usually a presentation pre-alpha before things are set in stone. If they don't talk about it there's a strong chance it's not ready or won't be designed.
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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Oh, so we've gone straight to insulting people who disagree with our point of view? I'm not even sure why I bother...

    It's only ONE EXAMPLE of an entire array of garbage that game companies like Blizzard get free passes on. They're advertising things which they're not delivering on. Why is that acceptable? Do you even have an answer?
    So Blizz advertised Thal'dranath? News to me...

    Looks like you are one of those guys who just have to roast Blizzard over just about every irrelevant shit because you have some hurt feelings for it.

  14. #134
    I think that Thal'Dranath was supposed to be 7.2 with something like Azshara as the main villain for that patch, or something similar to that considering the night elven ruins and how many ppl speculated that the island would come back to the surface.

    Then Broken shore would have been 7.3 and Argus would be saved for a later expansion... but then they realised that killing KJ (and Archimonde in WoD), would mean that only Sargeras would be leader of Legion and wouldn't have as powerful servants as these two. That would make a boring, and short / or dragged out expansion. So they instead decided to finish legion's story this expansion, and and instead of Thal'Dranath, create Argus for the final patch and put Broken shore in between. This is all just my theory, nothing confirmed by blizz or anything.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    Except Thal'dranath was never once discussed at Blizzcon, during a Q&A, advertised, or developed.
    Ok...so then what are these images showing the map from? A mysterious secret alternate universe Blizzcon?



    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    Farahlon we all agree they screwed up on and Blizzard admitted they should've waited before talking about it. WOD was full of this because they ran out of resources to complete things. But other than WOD there really aren't many features they talked about that aren't in the game. Speculation yes. But Blizzcon is usually a presentation pre-alpha before things are set in stone. If they don't talk about it there's a strong chance it's not ready or won't be designed.
    Then like I said, they shouldn't have even showed it. This is my whole point: Stop showing us things that are so early in development that they can still be cut. Everything about Blizzcon is set up to show off and advertise Blizzard products. Directly speaking of it isn't required to generate hype. In fact it's a known psychological technique to hint at things and let the customer/reader/player's imagination take over.

    I'll grant it's a relatively minor point, but it's part of a pattern of behavior. And one that players shouldn't be so willing to gloss over. That's all I'm saying. Yes, consumers should be more careful about getting carried away, but developers and publishers should also not be taking advantage of the situation to generate hype and then not deliver.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2017-05-15 at 09:05 AM.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Then like I said, they shouldn't have even showed it.
    Man if anybody ever tells you the amount of shit Hollywood puts into trailers which never makes it into the movie, you might have an aneurysm.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I'll grant it's a relatively minor point, but it's part of a pattern of behavior. And one that players shouldn't be so willing to gloss over. That's all I'm saying. Yes, consumers should be more careful about getting carried away, but developers and publishers should also not be taking advantage of the situation to generate hype and then not deliver.
    It is a relatively minor point and in this situation it's indicative of little more than the developers changing their mind while in development of the expansion. If 100% of the shit developers mention while developing a game HAS to be made a part of the game, nothing would ever get done. Shit happens, dude. Holding developers to unreasonable and often unachievable standards is exactly the reason many of them never bother trying to communicate with the community. It's incredibly frustrating to deal with people like you who latch onto random shit then hold them accountable when they don't do exactly what you want.

    No developer should be held to this kind of scrutiny. Yes it sucks when shit gets cut but we should as consumers believe that developers have the consumers' best interest in mind instead of having a persecution complex every time we don't get delivered a fucking pony.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Ok...so then what are these images showing the map from? A mysterious secret alternate universe Blizzcon?





    Then like I said, they shouldn't have even showed it. This is my whole point: Stop showing us things that are so early in development that they can still be cut. Everything about Blizzcon is set up to show off and advertise Blizzard products. Directly speaking of it isn't required to generate hype. In fact it's a known psychological technique to hint at things and let the customer/reader/player's imagination take over.

    I'll grant it's a relatively minor point, but it's part of a pattern of behavior. And one that players shouldn't be so willing to gloss over. That's all I'm saying. Yes, consumers should be more careful about getting carried away, but developers and publishers should also not be taking advantage of the situation to generate hype and then not deliver.
    And in the same presentation, Afrasiabi said to ignore it, it was just a concept plan for a future patch.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Man if anybody ever tells you the amount of shit Hollywood puts into trailers which never makes it into the movie, you might have an aneurysm.
    Yeah, I'm aware of that as well. And that's bullshit too. Don't overreact. Just because I'm pointing out something wrong with the industry doesn't mean I'm losing my mind over it. I'd wager your reactions to my posts are stronger.


    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    It is a relatively minor point and in this situation it's indicative of little more than the developers changing their mind while in development of the expansion. If 100% of the shit developers mention while developing a game HAS to be made a part of the game, nothing would ever get done. Shit happens, dude. Holding developers to unreasonable and often unachievable standards is exactly the reason many of them never bother trying to communicate with the community. It's incredibly frustrating to deal with people like you who latch onto random shit then hold them accountable when they don't do exactly what you want.

    No developer should be held to this kind of scrutiny. Yes it sucks when shit gets cut but we should as consumers believe that developers have the consumers' best interest in mind instead of having a persecution complex every time we don't get delivered a fucking pony.
    Why is it unreasonable to expect them to not build up hype for something they aren't going to deliver on? Why is it so difficult to understand that all I'm saying is that devs and publishers have just as much responsibility for their behavior as players?

    People are so ready to shit on someone for "Getting carried away" or "buying into the hype instead of thinking", but then turn around and let devs and publishers get away with building the very crap that causes those reactions. I don't get it at all.

    Whatever, it's clear we're not making any headway here. We'll all just have to agree to disagree.

  19. #139
    Scrapped and Broken Shore was reused with some minor touch-ups. That's it, that's all.


    I imagine it would be similar to the Firelands raid where we quest on one island and raid on another, but then they scrapped the quest island, had us quest on the raid island and put more of the raid into the actual temple... or sewers.

  20. #140
    Immortal Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Ok...so then what are these images showing the map from? A mysterious secret alternate universe Blizzcon?





    Then like I said, they shouldn't have even showed it. This is my whole point: Stop showing us things that are so early in development that they can still be cut. Everything about Blizzcon is set up to show off and advertise Blizzard products. Directly speaking of it isn't required to generate hype. In fact it's a known psychological technique to hint at things and let the customer/reader/player's imagination take over.

    I'll grant it's a relatively minor point, but it's part of a pattern of behavior. And one that players shouldn't be so willing to gloss over. That's all I'm saying. Yes, consumers should be more careful about getting carried away, but developers and publishers should also not be taking advantage of the situation to generate hype and then not deliver.
    I'm sorry but that's 100% on the players. Just because you see something on a map doesn't mean it's going to be a playable zone in the game. That's making an assumption. There's lots of things on the maps that aren't in the game. Unless Blizzard specifically mentions it why would anyone assume it's anything other than a sketch of a zone?

    It's like everyone becomes 3 year olds suddenly when looking at anything Blizzard related. I saw candy on the kitchen counter. I want it! Begin meltdown.
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