"Pay to Win"

[Deleted]

You know full well that is not sufficient
There are lots of bits scattered around the thread, with wow specific clarifications.
Even putting those altogether fails to describe pay to win if you have tailored it to a specific game.
If you cannot take your definition as it is, and apply that to another game then it isn't good enough.

You keep lying, over and over again.
And keep refusing again and again.

You are again being a hypocrite, saying that I need to come up with "something new"< when you are guilty of parroting the same flawed phrase repeatedly.
I argued many individual points, you just say the same thing many times.

You lost the argument, because you refuse to do what you cannot.
Properly define pay to win.

You dont come up with any reason why I am wrong, you just repeat yourself.
Simply saying that I am.

It still stands, paying cash to get an in game advantage.

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You're not paying Blizzard anything additional. You're selling your tokens and paying players for their services. I've yet to ever see Blizzard advertise gold, carry runs, arena boosts, etc, because they don't. Everything you list is obtainable without spending a single penny other than your monthly subscription.

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Actually nothing you've said is true. Blizzard isn't charging players for items to win the game. Players are charging players. Oh and my step-daughter isn't blood so good try.

No one can pay $$$$ to Blizzard for an advantage. It doesn't exist. Rationalizing what other players charge using common currency is different. Open your eyes or keep arguing like a blind man because you don't understand the difference. We ALL understand what you're trying to say but you're wrong. That's not how P2W works.

Right, and were exactly did i say that you needed to get the advantage directly from blizzard?? Let me help you, i did not, because that doesn't matter. What does matter is that blizzard sold you the gold that made it possible for you to buy said advantage.

If no one can pay cash for an advantage then no one can buy tokens?? There is a difference, and if you had only opened your eyes then you would clearly see that i never said that players selling boosts is p2w, what makes it pay to win is that blizzard is selling the gold to make this a possibility.

And just because your step daughter isn't blood doesn't mean that it doesnt run in the family, because you keep acting like one.

[Deleted]

It still stands, paying cash to get an in game advantage.

And the same advantage can easily be achieved without paying a cent by just playing the game, which means the game isn't p2w. How is that so hard to grasp.

[Deleted]

Cool. Let's say I accept your definition of P2W and therefore WoW is P2W. Please explain how this is a bad thing?

Congratulations. I used to think P2W was this awful terrible thing for everyone. But now that people like you have decided to extend the definition (legitimately so) to include WoW tokens, suddenly P2W is something that can easily be dismissed as completely benign. It used to be that if a game was P2W I would know to avoid it, but now with people calling everything P2W, simply being P2W tells me nothing.

So really what exactly is the point of the argument anyway? So what if WoW is now P2W? You have just proven that being P2W doesn't really mean anything anyway, so why bother with the term?

I never said it was really a bad thing how blizzard implemented it.

These congratulations should not go to me, but to blizzard, they are the ones that made this nice loophole. They are the one that made this line blurry by giving this game aspects of p2w, just enough to not upset everyone but still reap in the rewards.

If you want to the point of the argument you will have to ask OP, and good luck with that one. I do not think that the current system is very bad, but that doesn't mean that i agree with it. I would rather just have no cash shop or game tokens you can buy and have everyone just play the game to get their stuff.

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And the same advantage can easily be achieved without paying a cent by just playing the game, which means the game isn't p2w. How is that so hard to grasp.

Because it really doesn't matter if you can get something in game by playing. What matters is that there is an ability to buy it. Otherwise selling bis gear would not be pay to win either. So it is pay to win, how is that so hard to grasp.

[Doylez]

And the same advantage can easily be achieved without paying a cent by just playing the game, which means the game isn't p2w. How is that so hard to grasp.

No, that just means it's not the worst kind of p2w. Still pay2win though.
How is that so hard to grasp.

[Deleted]

Because it really doesn't matter if you can get something in game by playing. What matters is that there is an ability to buy it. Otherwise selling bis gear would not be pay to win either. So it is pay to win, how is that so hard to grasp.

To me, the definition of p2w was always when a game offers direct power boosts only obtainable by paying real money. I never really saw anything in wow as p2w and still don't.
I mean if a player thinks they won by buying good gear then sure, for them it's p2w, it's just that they still aren't guaranteed to be top dps or a high rank in pvp.

[Deleted]

To me, the definition of p2w was always when a game offers direct power boosts only obtainable by paying real money. I never really saw anything in wow as p2w and still don't.
I mean if a player thinks they won by buying good gear then sure, for them it's p2w, it's just that they still aren't guaranteed to be top dps or a high rank in pvp.

But in those games where you can buy those direct power boosts you are also not guaranteed to be on the top of anything.
What makes a game p2w is the ability to buy some form of advantage. If you are not able to utilize that advantage that doesn't mean that you didn't get any advantage, it just means that you would be far worse without that advantage.

[Meiffert]

P2W describes that you cannot win without paying.

This is an interesting definition, but to me it seems too strict.

I think that in most games that are considered P2W, you pay to unlock content that is available for free with enough time and effort invested.
You can unlock your champions in moba games, you can unlock equipment in fps games and you can collect cards in many card games by using gold/in game quests etc.
Paying just gives you these advantages quicker.

I don't play a lot of games, rather play a few games a lot, so maybe I am mistaken on this point. Can you name a few very popular games where your definition of P2W is implemented?


In the case of WoW, there is the added issue of defining winning. How do you even win in an MMORPG? There is no "Congratulations, game finished" moment.

In RPGs, the goals are usually tied to character or story advancement.
- reach a certain experience level (possibly max level if it exists)
- acquire a certain level of gear, gold or other possessions
- defeat a given enemy/dungeon
- earn achievements

Many of these goals can certain be bought in WoW.
- level boost can directly be bought
- defeating even end-level raid enemies can be bought
- gold or even gear (via a few boost runs) can be bought
- many achievements can be bought and some (# of mounts/pets) are arguably way harder/rng/unobtainable without paying for them


To be fair I don't think that it is an issue. These things don't really influence the game experience of other players (maybe the economy is a little affected, but nothing major).

[Raelbo]

I never said it was really a bad thing how blizzard implemented it.

So then why do you care whether it's pay2win or not? And why do you keep arguing as though you have a huge problem with tokens because they are pay2win?

These congratulations should not go to me, but to blizzard, they are the ones that made this nice loophole. They are the one that made this line blurry by giving this game aspects of p2w, just enough to not upset everyone but still reap in the rewards.

What are you even talking about? Blizzard didn't make any loopholes. They created an ingame feature, and people like you have insisted on putting the same label (pay2win) on that feature as fundamentally different features in other games.

If you want to the point of the argument you will have to ask OP, and good luck with that one.

This argument has been played out enough times on this and other forums that it shouldn't take a genius to figure out what it's all about. It's essentially a strawman argument that tries to trick people into thinking the feature must be bad if it can proven to fit some arbitrary definition of pay2win. It's a fallacy because, instead of focussing on what makes the token system bad, people argue whether it's pay2win, and in the process lose sight of what actually makes pay2win a problem in the first place.

I do not think that the current system is very bad, but that doesn't mean that i agree with it. I would rather just have no cash shop or game tokens you can buy and have everyone just play the game to get their stuff.

Fair enough. So why do you think that the removal of the shop and tokens would improve your gaming experience? How would it change how you experience the game?

Because it really doesn't matter if you can get something in game by playing. What matters is that there is an ability to buy it. Otherwise selling bis gear would not be pay to win either. So it is pay to win, how is that so hard to grasp.

Except it really doesn't matter what you choose to call it. The ability to use tokens to buy gold translates into something pretty meaningless in the context of competitive WoW play.

[Deleted]

So then why do you care whether it's pay2win or not? And why do you keep arguing as though you have a huge problem with tokens because they are pay2win?

So are you really asking why i care if a definition of something is? This thread is supposed to be about what pay to win is and if wow is that. How i "feel" about any of it really doesn't matter to the subject at hand.

What are you even talking about? Blizzard didn't make any loopholes. They created an ingame feature, and people like you have insisted on putting the same label (pay2win) on that feature as fundamentally different features in other games.

Because it falls under the pay to win label. See definition that was put forth.

This argument has been played out enough times on this and other forums that it shouldn't take a genius to figure out what it's all about. It's essentially a strawman argument that tries to trick people into thinking the feature must be bad if it can proven to fit some arbitrary definition of pay2win. It's a fallacy because, instead of focussing on what makes the token system bad, people argue whether it's pay2win, and in the process lose sight of what actually makes pay2win a problem in the first place.

That is your opinion, and that is fine, but its nothing more then your opinion. In my opinion it is about being vigilant to things like these so they do not get out of hand.

Fair enough. So why do you think that the removal of the shop and tokens would improve your gaming experience? How would it change how you experience the game?

Putting content, no matter what this content is, behind a paid wall means that they are spending time on this game that isn't included in the game that i have bought nor in time that i have bought to be able to play the game. So in essence it would mean that the dev's would spend more time on the game, instead of other content that makes blizzard even more money.

Except it really doesn't matter what you choose to call it. The ability to use tokens to buy gold translates into something pretty meaningless in the context of competitive WoW play.

That you think of it as meaningless doesn't have any baring on if the game is p2w or not. Fact remains that you can pay money to get gold, that is the p2w part.

[Raelbo]

I never said it was really a bad thing how blizzard implemented it.

So then why do you care whether it's pay2win or not? And why do you keep arguing as though your issues with tokens are because they are pay2win?

These congratulations should not go to me, but to blizzard, they are the ones that made this nice loophole. They are the one that made this line blurry by giving this game aspects of p2w, just enough to not upset everyone but still reap in the rewards.

What are you even talking about? Blizzard didn't make any loopholes. They created an ingame feature, and people like you have insisted on putting the same label (pay2win) on that feature as fundamentally different features in other games.

If you want to the point of the argument you will have to ask OP, and good luck with that one.

This argument has been played out enough times on this and other forums that it shouldn't take a genius to figure out what it's all about. It's essentially a strawman argument that tries to trick people into thinking the feature must be bad if it can proven to fit some arbitrary definition of pay2win. It's a fallacy because, instead of focussing on what makes the token system bad, people argue whether it's pay2win, and in the process lose sight of what actually makes pay2win a problem in the first place.

I do not think that the current system is very bad, but that doesn't mean that i agree with it. I would rather just have no cash shop or game tokens you can buy and have everyone just play the game to get their stuff.

Fair enough. So why do you think that the removal of the shop and tokens would improve your gaming experience? How would it change how you experience the game?

Because it really doesn't matter if you can get something in game by playing. What matters is that there is an ability to buy it. Otherwise selling bis gear would not be pay to win either. So it is pay to win, how is that so hard to grasp.

Except it really doesn't matter what you choose to call it. The ability to use tokens to buy gold translates into something pretty meaningless in the context of competitive WoW play.

[Deleted]

I think something went wrong here ;P

[Raelbo]

So are you really asking why i care if a definition of something is? This thread is supposed to be about what pay to win is and if wow is that. How i "feel" about any of it really doesn't matter to the subject at hand.

It should be pretty evident from this thread that "what pay to win is" is anything but objective. A lot of people clearly feel very strongly that WoW is either p2w or it isn't, and I believe that the key to this discussion is understanding the reasons behind those feelings. The point of this thread was never (from the OP's perspective) to try and gain some objective of what p2w is, but to watch people bicker about it.

Because it falls under the pay to win label. See definition that was put forth.

That really depends on how you choose to define that label and, needless to say, not everyone finds your definition satisfactory. I would argue that WoW's "pay2win" elements are sufficiently different from the typical "pay2win" elements from other games that players are already familiar with, that lumping WoW under the same label serves to create confusion rather than clarity.

That is your opinion, and that is fine, but its nothing more then your opinion. In my opinion it is about being vigilant to things like these so they do not get out of hand.

Fair enough, just be careful not to get yourself stuck on the slippery-slope fallacy. I think most people crying foul about tokens haven't really bothered to assess the feature critically and their responses to it are prejudiced by how they feel about other (very different) pay2win features in other (very different) games.

Putting content, no matter what this content is, behind a paid wall means that they are spending time on this game that isn't included in the game that i have bought nor in time that i have bought to be able to play the game. So in essence it would mean that the dev's would spend more time on the game, instead of other content that makes blizzard even more money.

I don't think you've really thought this one through enough.

If Blizzard removed the shop, then it is true that those developer's working on the "paid" content would no longer work on that content. But what makes you believe they would magically just start working on "free" content? You need to consider the impact that the removal of the shop would have on WoW's revenue and how that in turn would impact on the development team.

Ultimately more money for Blizzard from the shop is going to translate into more money available to re-invest into the game. I would be very surprised if Blizzard's return on investment based on dev time spent for shop contents was less than for regular content (ie game sales and subscription). I mean, if that were the case, they'd not bother with the shop at all. So it stands to reason that the shop results into a nett win for the game's bottom line. Which means that they can justify a greater re-investment of funds into the game.

And why wouldn't they? Every single item that is sold through the shop depends on the game's success (which in turn depends on "free" content). And when it comes to tokens, the positive feedback loop it creates to result for more content for you and I should be pretty evident.

So yeah, I get what you're worried about, but I think the reality is the opposite.

That you think of it as meaningless doesn't have any baring on if the game is p2w or not. Fact remains that you can pay money to get gold, that is the p2w part.

So what? Personally I don't call that p2w given how p2w is defined for a bunch of other games, but I do accept that technically, from a different point of view, it could be labelled as p2w. A different kind of p2w, with different implications. But in the end what's the point (unless you're trying to use a strawman strategy to attack tokens)?

[Aquamonkey]

Gold doesn't have to give you an advantage to have value. For example, I have enough gold, and make enough simply playing the game the way I enjoy playing it, that the ability to buy more doesn't give me any advantage whatsoever. The fact that I, like many others, have been buying tokens since they became available, to cover my game time proves this.

The reason I won't just give my gold away has nothing to do with me losing some advantage. Simply having that gold doesn't give me any magical boost, unless I spend it. But as it so happens I tend not to spend it (hence why I have so much of it). I am not going to give it away because it has monetary value and represents time and effort I put into earning it.

Having gold to spend in game is an advantage. Just because you have a surplus you don't use doesn't mean you don't have that advantage. Just because you get it incidentally from your regular play doesn't mean you don't have that advantage. If having gold offered no in-game advantage, there wouldn't have been gold-farmers and it wouldn't be available for cash.

[Deleted]

It should be pretty evident from this thread that "what pay to win is" is anything but objective. A lot of people clearly feel very strongly that WoW is either p2w or it isn't, and I believe that the key to this discussion is understanding the reasons behind those feelings. The point of this thread was never (from the OP's perspective) to try and gain some objective of what p2w is, but to watch people bicker about it.

You might be right about OP, i think that might be his main thing. I know that people make p2w subjective because they feel that this is somehow damaging to the game and emotions tend to flair up. Different games will have different forms of paying for the game, blizzards form has always been a subscription. To have a cash shop next to that that sells forms of power is to be frowned upon at the very least. All i did was give the most objective definition.

That really depends on how you choose to define that label and, needless to say, not everyone finds your definition satisfactory. I would argue that WoW's "pay2win" elements are sufficiently different from the typical "pay2win" elements from other games that players are already familiar with, that lumping WoW under the same label serves to create confusion rather than clarity

.

I really do not think that how anyone feels about it has any baring on it. Most reasons i have come across so far boil down to either "what do they win" because you cant really "win" in wow. That would make any definition pointless as you would be able to sell anything and it would still not be p2w as long as you can still get it in the game. Or it is about the fact that other people have done it before you, and again, that can be said of just about any game. What this definition does is just point out that there is a way to speed up the game through paying cash.

Fair enough, just be careful not to get yourself stuck on the slippery-slope fallacy. I think most people crying foul about tokens haven't really bothered to assess the feature critically and their responses to it are prejudiced by how they feel about other (very different) pay2win features in other (very different) games.

I think that most people who complain about the token can see that it allows you to pay to get through a certain progression instead of playing the game like everyone else. To me it compromises the integrity of the game, and if implemented on more fronts would be a serious reason to quite the game for me personally.

I don't think you've really thought this one through enough.

If Blizzard removed the shop, then it is true that those developer's working on the "paid" content would no longer work on that content. But what makes you believe they would magically just start working on "free" content? You need to consider the impact that the removal of the shop would have on WoW's revenue and how that in turn would impact on the development team.

Ultimately more money for Blizzard from the shop is going to translate into more money available to re-invest into the game. I would be very surprised if Blizzard's return on investment based on dev time spent for shop contents was less than for regular content (ie game sales and subscription). I mean, if that were the case, they'd not bother with the shop at all. So it stands to reason that the shop results into a nett win for the game's bottom line. Which means that they can justify a greater re-investment of funds into the game.

And why wouldn't they? Every single item that is sold through the shop depends on the game's success (which in turn depends on "free" content). And when it comes to tokens, the positive feedback loop it creates to result for more content for you and I should be pretty evident.

So yeah, I get what you're worried about, but I think the reality is the opposite.

Well, if they create another pet that is exclusive to the store, that pet won't be around in the world for me to enjoy catch. Same goes for allot of mounts that you won't really see anywhere in the wild. So these things do cost us in terms of things in the world.

If wow only had a cash shop to get its revenue i would agree with you, but wow is a game that requires a subscription before you can even play the game. This comes next to the revenue of all the great content patches that are also sold (tbc, wotlk, mop ect.). The cash shop is nothing more then milking the game as other games have enough on just the subscriptions or the cash shop, blizzard is using them all.

So what? Personally I don't call that p2w given how p2w is defined for a bunch of other games, but I do accept that technically, from a different point of view, it could be labelled as p2w. A different kind of p2w, with different implications. But in the end what's the point (unless you're trying to use a strawman strategy to attack tokens)?

If you define pay to win to apply to some other games then it only applies to those games as pay to win is a very broad spectrum. What the implications are on a game are just that, implications on one game. You can not draw any parallels on that to other games, as these games are designed with a certain earning model in mind. What is the point of defining p2w that only will fit on a really small number of games, from the top of my head i can not think of any popular games that use this model. No one is using this model because it is just obviously bad, what they did is change it in a way that was still acceptable to most gamers.

Getting paid for making a game is one thing, milking it is quite another thing, the cash shop is milking it for sure. The token makes it worse because it allows you to buy power in the game.

[ComputerNerd]

This is an interesting definition, but to me it seems too strict.

I think that in most games that are considered P2W, you pay to unlock content that is available for free with enough time and effort invested.
You can unlock your champions in moba games, you can unlock equipment in fps games and you can collect cards in many card games by using gold/in game quests etc.
Paying just gives you these advantages quicker.

I don't play a lot of games, rather play a few games a lot, so maybe I am mistaken on this point. Can you name a few very popular games where your definition of P2W is implemented?


In the case of WoW, there is the added issue of defining winning. How do you even win in an MMORPG? There is no "Congratulations, game finished" moment.

In RPGs, the goals are usually tied to character or story advancement.
- reach a certain experience level (possibly max level if it exists)
- acquire a certain level of gear, gold or other possessions
- defeat a given enemy/dungeon
- earn achievements

Many of these goals can certain be bought in WoW.
- level boost can directly be bought
- defeating even end-level raid enemies can be bought
- gold or even gear (via a few boost runs) can be bought
- many achievements can be bought and some (# of mounts/pets) are arguably way harder/rng/unobtainable without paying for them


To be fair I don't think that it is an issue. These things don't really influence the game experience of other players (maybe the economy is a little affected, but nothing major).

You cant have different forms of pay to win.
It is or it isn't.
So if you think the requirement for payment for certain gains is insufficient as a definition, then it does need to be expanded in such a way that it applies to both cases.
Assuming there is even just those two cases.

I never said it was really a bad thing how blizzard implemented it.

These congratulations should not go to me, but to blizzard, they are the ones that made this nice loophole. They are the one that made this line blurry by giving this game aspects of p2w, just enough to not upset everyone but still reap in the rewards.

If you want to the point of the argument you will have to ask OP, and good luck with that one. I do not think that the current system is very bad, but that doesn't mean that i agree with it. I would rather just have no cash shop or game tokens you can buy and have everyone just play the game to get their stuff.

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Because it really doesn't matter if you can get something in game by playing. What matters is that there is an ability to buy it. Otherwise selling bis gear would not be pay to win either. So it is pay to win, how is that so hard to grasp.

If taking that last bit word for word, you can buy that advantage for gold no matter its source.
This is a prime example of what I described.
You need to specify in full in one statement more than just the word "advantage" to describe a very narrow portion of what it actually means.

That is the point.
Word for Word the short statement is lacking a lot.

You have just a short while ago argued with a lot of extra discussion that wow could include some questionable methods.
And that I don't disagree with.
I just ask that if you want to make such a bold statement as pay to win, then it requires a full definition, including what you just argued.

Said advantage needs to equal winning.
And people in this thread have had quite varying opinions on what defines that.
Winning is far more subjective.
Winning for me is about a progression.
If I get past something in my way, for me that is a win, but only if I did it legitimately.
If I had bought my way, to me it is empty.
And therefore I did not win, and nor could many people describe it as that.

I just think that Pay to Win is something else, but perhaps we need a new description.
Something in-between the two.

I would say it is more paying for influence, rather than advantages directly.

There are just too few phrases to define every model there is at present accurately.

[Deleted]

What is YOUR definition of "pay to win"?

Buy the best gear with real money without the chance to get better gear just from playing the game.

[Tharkkun]

Having gold isn't an advantage? Will you give it all to me then?

I haven't spent gold on a single thing this expansion aside from repairs.

[gonzajd777]

Anybody plz ban this guy for ask stupid things

WoW its not a P2W at all , its pay to play

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You cant have different forms of pay to win.

simply dont, p2w means you buy gear, buff, etc with real money that give you a real advantage from the rest of players... in wow you can not buy a shit that give you a real advantage directly to your characters ...
buying a carry its not an advantage, you are paying for other ppl to do your job in a raid group, arenas or rbg

[Tharkkun]

It still stands, paying cash to get an in game advantage.

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Right, and were exactly did i say that you needed to get the advantage directly from blizzard?? Let me help you, i did not, because that doesn't matter. What does matter is that blizzard sold you the gold that made it possible for you to buy said advantage.

If no one can pay cash for an advantage then no one can buy tokens?? There is a difference, and if you had only opened your eyes then you would clearly see that i never said that players selling boosts is p2w, what makes it pay to win is that blizzard is selling the gold to make this a possibility.

And just because your step daughter isn't blood doesn't mean that it doesnt run in the family, because you keep acting like one.

You're really too dense to get it. I'm sorry.

[ComputerNerd]

Anybody plz ban this guy for ask stupid things

WoW its not a P2W at all , its pay to play

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simply dont, p2w means you buy gear, buff, etc with real money that give you a real advantage from the rest of players... in wow you can not buy a shit that give you a real advantage directly to your characters ...
buying a carry its not an advantage, you are paying for other ppl to do your job in a raid group, arenas or rbg

No, you cant change the definition on per game basis.
That isnt a definition.
if I define anything and then find something that doesnt fit, but should.
Then it means my original definition was not good enough.
Simple as that.

A definition applies to every case, as it is.
If you have to change or adjust it, then either your definition is wrong.

You're really too dense to get it. I'm sorry.

Reverting to the same accusations of low intelligence or being dense is not going to get anything achieved here.
I pointed out behaviour common with lying, refusal to provide something you claim you have.
And that was supported by the thread content.
But an attack which has nothing to do with the argument, or content of the thread is something else entirely.

I may have opinions on their behaviour, but misguided or outright misleading is as far as I would go in describing it.