ToS - ranged or melee?

[Yunaqt]

I think the question was about ToS, not some farm raid that's of the verge of becoming irrelevant off night content.

[barackohmama]

If we were still living in the age where ranged had mobility then yes you'd be right. As it stands there are many mechanics in NH that require a ranged to literally run out of range of the boss and stand there for a solid several seconds before returning as a mechanic.

Whereas melee have gotten more and more mobility over the course of WoW, ranged has not only lost their mobility but also many of their instant spells. If you think even for a second that requiring you to sit on a boss's ass somehow makes them game harder then please by all means actually play a ranged in mythic NH and I'll laugh at how fast you bail out of it or get kicked.

I play affliction warlock(also spriest at hc lvl) apart from my warrior and even if I run out of range my dots still tick for a fair bit of dmg. Teleport also makes life easy for Elisande soaks. Most other ranged has blink/or disengage to quickly move from A to B. Plus any proper guild will assign healers to soak orbs far from boss or make high mobility ranged do it like hunters. If people can't dps its a concern for everyone no matter if it's ranged or melee who can't dps. But melee also has the disadvantage they have downtime when she blinks, range dps dont have that problem if they position themselves properly. Elisande is just one example of a fight I know, but tbh most fights are kinda equal. Elisande jumping is kinda the same for melee as orb soaking is for ranged. Krosus you might think melee has huge advantage since they don't have to run away from raid with orb, but on the other hand ranged don't have to worry about bridge breaking so they can just keep dpsing while bridge breaks . Another thing is a fight like Star Augur. Ranged dps can spread out around the room(except when they have to stack for ice nova) with plenty of space while melee has limited space around the rest of the melee in middle and have to position themselves carefully when grand conjunction hits so they don't trigger grand trine.

You see the trend dude? In most cases it evens out. Believe it or not melee has abilities range don't have to worry about and vice versa. I don't get why so many ranged dps think they are so much better than melee because they somehow think they have to use their brain more. Personally I just think they have to blame their lacking damage output on something(thats not even the case anymore. frost mage, affli lock hello) and they use melee the scapegoat when in reality they should blame blizzard for poor tuning. because all classes within 10% of eachother is not proof enough apparently.

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Krosus? You mean that guy where melee can tunnel 24/7, while ranged have to fuck off to Africa to soak, kill shit the back and carry Orb of Destruction?

kk, hope that is not too difficult for you.

Melee also has to soak pools and help on adds while being out of range of boss. Orb is just range equal to bridge breaking except it only affects one range at a time. Man get over yourself. Don't pretend like range has some rocket science mechanics. Range mechanics is in fact piss easy while they can also dps on ANY target within 40 yards instantly.

[Jastall]

Man, after years of the standard operating procedure being ''bring as few melees as possible, and make sure they're Rogues at that'' for high-end raiding, one raid that's more melee friendly and the tears flow like veritable waterfalls. Heaven forbid that for once it's not like HFC where Hunters bunny hop topping meters while we have to deal with bullshit like Xhul or Tyrant.

[Deleted]

Wanting an easy and chill life only tunnelling boss -> go melee
Like doing mechanics? -> go ranged

[Sarevokcz]

If we were still living in the age where ranged had mobility then yes you'd be right. As it stands there are many mechanics in NH that require a ranged to literally run out of range of the boss and stand there for a solid several seconds before returning as a mechanic.

and melees dont? please, tell us more about eating cakes, flame detonates, augurs injections and conjunctions, ellisande ports and krosus soaks or even hiding behind the pillars on tich unless you get lucky spawn

it works both ways, everyone can cherrypick the few mechanics, that affect them more than the others, I can even agree, that for once, ranged have a tougher job in the raid than before, but this BS about melee having 100% uptime and poor ranged afking out of range half the bossfight is getting old

[globenstine]

It's terrible people think just because ranged do slightly less damage while dealing with mechanics that they're useless. Ranged are good at doing SOME damage while doing mechanics. Melee can also do ranged mechanics (like soaking bonds on guldan) but do zero damage while doing them.

You should take pride in being able to dish out some damage and doing mechanics that help your raid as well. Raiding isn't about "me top deepz hurr durr" it's about downing bosses and stopping the legion (this tier)

ranged should out dps melee BECAUSE they have to do mechanics, not do less and have to do mechanics. right now there is no trade off to being ranged and having to do basically every mechanic.

[Sarevokcz]

ranged should out dps melee BECAUSE they have to do mechanics, not do less and have to do mechanics.

and then whats the point of bringing melee if ranged can do mechanics better and still have better dps?

[Divinexve]

can't recall any encounters in this game like that

iron juggernaut

[Irian]

and melees dont? please, tell us more about eating cakes, flame detonates, augurs injections and conjunctions, ellisande ports and krosus soaks or even hiding behind the back pillars on tich unless you get lucky spawn

it works both ways, everyone can cherrypick the few mechanics, that affect them more than the others, I can even agree, that for once, ranged have a tougher job in the raid than before, but this BS about melee having 100% uptime and poor ranged afking out of range half the bossfight is getting old

My point is that melee are actually obviously balanced around having to do this. If ranged weren't all on average considerably lower DPS (without half as much passive cleave, either) then I would not have much of an issue with the way NH is designed.

But what you said is exactly my point. Melee have considerably less mechanics to worry about in NH by far with many bosses like Botanist, Spellblade, Tich and Elisande (off the top of my head) having mechanics that melee can essentially just completely ignore while tunneling the boss. To me it's really not okay to have a role that has borderline no responsibility when it comes to the raid's success, and that's not even taking into account the DPS disparity. Melee are overall better on ST and that's not even taking into account that basically all of them have some form of cleave that requires no thought or input from the player at all.

It's okay to me for melee to be good or even for melee to be better, what's questionable is how many mechanics are 100% ignorable by melee. What's even more questionable is how many people in this thread have said shit like "how do you design mechanics for melee?" I mean...I don't know, maybe the same way you design mechanics for ranged? Melee can move while DPSing for a reason, I think it wouldn't kill the raid designers to make them take advantage of that a little more in a boss encounter with more mandatory add-switching and moving out.

[Sarevokcz]

My point is that melee are actually obviously balanced around having to do this. If ranged weren't all on average considerably lower DPS (without half as much passive cleave, either) then I would not have much of an issue with the way NH is designed.

But what you said is exactly my point. Melee have considerably less mechanics to worry about in NH by far with many bosses like Botanist, Spellblade, Tich and Elisande (off the top of my head) having mechanics that melee can essentially just completely ignore while tunneling the boss. To me it's really not okay to have a role that has borderline no responsibility when it comes to the raid's success, and that's not even taking into account the DPS disparity. Melee are overall better on ST and that's not even taking into account that basically all of them have some form of cleave that requires no thought or input from the player at all.

It's okay to me for melee to be good or even for melee to be better, what's questionable is how many mechanics are 100% ignorable by melee. What's even more questionable is how many people in this thread have said shit like "how do you design mechanics for melee?" I mean...I don't know, maybe the same way you design mechanics for ranged? Melee can move while DPSing for a reason, I think it wouldn't kill the raid designers to make them take advantage of that a little more in a boss encounter with more mandatory add-switching and moving out.

the mechanics arent "ignorable" by melee, raids are purposedly sending ranged to do the mechanics, because they suffer way less from the downtime than melee. you try and send your melee on frost marks duty or on robot duty or on call of night duty or orb soaking on ellisande and then come back with how theyre topping the charts...

the second ranged have easier time doing mechanics AND still do same or better dps than melee at the same time is the moment raids will get two rogues for cloak of shadows cheese and we will be back to rangedcraft. and again, Im saying that as someone, who mained two ranged in the last 10 years.

[Deleted]

130 posts and not a single one regarding OP question.


Stay classy, MMO-Champ. Mods should close this thread since it has devolved into something horrible.

On topic: Have not logged into PTR so no idea about ToS bosses

[stevan021]

ranged should out dps melee BECAUSE they have to do mechanics, not do less and have to do mechanics.

Ranged don't have to do mechanics. You can have your melee do "ranged" mechanics but most raid leaders don't do that because melee dmg suffers greatly while doing them. For instance you can have a rogue run around soaking exploding robots on Trilliax but his damage is gonna be shit.

right now there is no trade off to being ranged and having to do basically every mechanic.

Doing mechanics was never about increasing damage. You say being ranged you should do more damage because you are expected to do mechanics. If your raid has you doing mechanics then it's probably because your class is already suffering much less in damage than if someone else (maybe melee) was doing those same mechanics. That's the "trade off". You are already better/stronger.

Now of course melee is outdpsing you in that one situation because you are doing mechanics and he is tunneling the boss because his class is not suited for dealing with ranged mechanics. I get that but you gotta understand that doing mechanics will ALWAYS BE A DPS LOSS BY DESIGN. It doesn't mean your class should be overbuffed to do the same damage others do WHILE doing mechanics because then your damage while tunneling the boss would be INSANE.

By the way as far as tunneling goes ranged are already superior at the moment: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/11#metric=bossdps

[Deleted]

I think purely the fact that almost every melee by now has a "free death" mechanic built in makes ranges have the impression that melees dont have to do mechanics. Paladin auto-bubble, Rogue cheat-death, DK purgatory (do they still have it?), DH also have something like it, don't know what it's called. Only f'ed ones are warriors and shamen.

I do believe that Blizzard went absolutely too far with giving out so many cheat-death mechanics. This is what makes melees seem like boring boss-tunnlers.

Having said that, this ranking bullshit has gotten worse and worse ever since log sites exist and there are always a couple players in a non-top-world raid that consciously don't play mechanics in order to rank higher.

[Deleted]

I think purely the fact that almost every melee by now has a "free death" mechanic built in makes ranges have the impression that melees dont have to do mechanics. Paladin auto-bubble, Rogue cheat-death, DK purgatory (do they still have it?), DH also have something like it, don't know what it's called. Only f'ed ones are warriors and shamen.

I do believe that Blizzard went absolutely too far with giving out so many cheat-death mechanics. This is what makes melees seem like boring boss-tunnlers.

Having said that, this ranking bullshit has gotten worse and worse ever since log sites exist and there are always a couple players in a non-top-world raid that consciously don't play mechanics in order to rank higher.

dk and dh only got purgatory and last resort in tank specs, and shamans can self ress

[Deleted]

dk and dh only got purgatory and last resort in tank specs, and shamans can self ress

OK, so DKs and warriors are f'ed. I don't know much about DHs only that DHs were an alternative to Rogues for Tich and therefore I assumed that they have some kind of insane damage reduction possibility or even a cheat-death mechanic.

The problem with Blizzard is their silo-development: Feedback is that raids are melee-unfriendly, so the encounter-design team is encouraged to make mechanics hit mainly ranges and the class-design team is encouraged to make melees survive deadly mechanics better. However, both happens at the same time which puts melees objectively in a superior position to ranged, especially clothies.

[Deleted]

OK, so DKs and warriors are f'ed. I don't know much about DHs only that DHs were an alternative to Rogues for Tich and therefore I assumed that they have some kind of insane damage reduction possibility or even a cheat-death mechanic.

They can talent out of their usual damage reduction CD and instead get a short time immunity on I think 90sec during which they cant do damage. On the other hand you have mages with cauterize and block, Ele sham has ankh as well, WL can stand in whatever because they are locks and hunter have aspect of the turtle. The only ranged truely fucked are Boomkin. You forgot Feral and Monk in your melee list btw.

[Saverem]

Thing is, Blizz kinda shot themselves on the foot this expansion.

Right now there are 13 melee specs spread among 9 classes and only 11 ranged spread among 6 classes. Not only that, but the VAST majority of DPS players are playing melee specs right now. If they made ToS ranged-centric it would cause a massive shit show, especially since it's so hard rerolling in this expansion (thanks to AP grinding and RNG leggo/TF farming). I'm sure they'll lose a ton of subs due to melees just quitting the game rather than having to re-level/gear/AP grind a ranged.

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I think purely the fact that almost every melee by now has a "free death" mechanic built in makes ranges have the impression that melees dont have to do mechanics. Paladin auto-bubble, Rogue cheat-death, DK purgatory (do they still have it?), DH also have something like it, don't know what it's called. Only f'ed ones are warriors and shamen.

I do believe that Blizzard went absolutely too far with giving out so many cheat-death mechanics. This is what makes melees seem like boring boss-tunnlers.

Having said that, this ranking bullshit has gotten worse and worse ever since log sites exist and there are always a couple players in a non-top-world raid that consciously don't play mechanics in order to rank higher.

I mean, Mages get that too and Locks with their Soul Stones, Hunters get Turtle/FD and Ele Shamans still have ankh.

DKs and DH don't have anything like that in DPS spec, those are tank only. Right now 3 tanks have a cheat death. DKs (Purgatory) DH (Last Resort) and Paladins (On top of having Bubble/BoP they also have Ardent Defender which causes a killing blow to instead heal them by like 15%)

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OK, so DKs and warriors are f'ed. I don't know much about DHs only that DHs were an alternative to Rogues for Tich and therefore I assumed that they have some kind of insane damage reduction possibility or even a cheat-death mechanic.

Those 2 rely on their high HP and plate armor (Fury Wars have almost as much HP as tanks while still wearing plate, they also heal themselves periodically with BT). Warriors also have very good mobility to help them get out of fire, while DKs have really good OH SHIT self heals (Frost artifact weap trait lets them pretty much full heal themselves every time IBF is up) or DR (90% less damage taken for 10s on a 1 min CD with Unholy)

[Raiju]

Thing is, Blizz kinda shot themselves on the foot this expansion.

Right now there are 13 melee specs spread among 9 classes and only 11 ranged spread among 6 classes. Not only that, but the VAST majority of DPS players are playing melee specs right now. If they made ToS ranged-centric it would cause a massive shit show, especially since it's so hard rerolling in this expansion (thanks to AP grinding and RNG leggo/TF farming). I'm sure they'll lose a ton of subs due to melees just quitting the game rather than having to re-level/gear/AP grind a range

1 melee spec didn't change anything in legion. This has been how it's been every previous expansion (melee heavy with ranged-centric raids). They didn't shoot themselves in the foot anymore than they had been since the wrath.

[Deleted]

Sounds like a fun raid for melee, after having done tank mechanics, ranged mechanics + melee stuff and save the raid from oneshots i would happly take a raid of just being afk dpsing on my rogue... too bad i quit this game in WoD

[Aktec]

1 melee spec didn't change anything in legion. This has been how it's been every previous expansion (melee heavy with ranged-centric raids). They didn't shoot themselves in the foot anymore than they had been since the wrath.

2 - survival/havoc

I think the issue is more that so many of the classes have no range option, of the 11 range specs 8 are across 3 classes which means that out of the 12 classes in game half of them simply have 0 option to be a range dps. I get some classes like warrior are built on having an axe and hitting enemy faces with it but with the more magic centric clases like dk/pally there could easily be a caster spec to balance things out. Iirc they were working on a rogue range spec but it got scrapped before legion, I just hope they don't give up.