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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cromatus View Post
    Might be a dumb question but... do you stack the mindflay buff to 10 stacks everytime with t20?
    with the belt? i dont think so..

  2. #22
    i agree that it's fucking dumb we get a really awesome tier set that automatically has to be nerfed because of 1 fucking spell. if they could actually make it like another poster suggested where the drain reduction changes based on whether you run surrender or not would be amazing. basically the same way the old tier 20 changed if you used mindbender or not.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Cromatus View Post
    Might be a dumb question but... do you stack the mindflay buff to 10 stacks everytime with t20?
    No. A lot of people seem to have this issue where they think the stack cap for a proc is the goal, rather than a failsafe. Mind Spike had this same thing.

    It's not. Do not delay Mind Blast. Never delay Mind Blast.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by kalaratic View Post
    i agree that it's fucking dumb we get a really awesome tier set that automatically has to be nerfed because of 1 fucking spell. if they could actually make it like another poster suggested where the drain reduction changes based on whether you run surrender or not would be amazing. basically the same way the old tier 20 changed if you used mindbender or not.
    And this is the biggest downfall of S2M. They finally came up with something super fucking cool and didn't realize that in the hands of super skilled people it was absolutely retarded and from then on they've basically been backed into a corner where the rest of the spec has to suffer for it which is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

  5. #25
    People that think the setbonus is going to get nerfed just because it potentially brings Surrender back have either not played with it at all, or simply lack imagination. Because the 4pc is ridiculous in general, not just with Surrender. On average you'll be getting 15 to 20 stacks more with Legacy selected; that's absolutely ludicrous. To put that into perspective, your regular Voidforms will last about as long as our current PI Voidforms do on live. I've seen other people say it here already but before they do it again, overall spec balance has nothing to do with how strong or weak a setbonus is supposed to be. A setbonus should never be this strong, period. There's a couple of other outliers at the moment that will inevitably get nerfed as well at some point. T20 tuning has only just begun.

  6. #26
    Deleted
    While I agree that a set bonus shouldnt be that strong, you also need to consider that our ST right now is pure shit (and i mean SHIT), and considering the kind of fights we have in TOS they either buff us up a lot with basic spells, or a set bonus much stronger than the average one is actually needed to be on par.

    As usual, Isentropy, you lack perspective. I told you months ago that shadow wasnt ok, your reply was "no way we are the best on the strongest bosses", and this because all you see if your point of view (which is a top 50/100 guild worldwide, so very few players). Truth is that 3 months and half after NH opened, when the huge majority of mythic raiders get to guldan, shadows get benched because they suck on guldan, and are outperformed by balance/mages/locks even on star and eli.

    Real truth is that shadow this tier was great if you killed mythic guldan in a month or so, was pretty decent if you did in 2 months, otherwise mage/lock/balance would've been a much better choice.

    The state of shadow now is very bad and only thing worse is the total lack of communication from blizzard to acknowledge it, 579 replied on the H2P thread and not one blue still. Wonder how can you defend blizzard even this time isentropy (ive seen you do that quite few times on discord :P).
    Last edited by mmoca542e793be; 2017-05-15 at 09:51 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Isentropy View Post
    People that think the setbonus is going to get nerfed just because it potentially brings Surrender back have either not played with it at all, or simply lack imagination. Because the 4pc is ridiculous in general, not just with Surrender. On average you'll be getting 15 to 20 stacks more with Legacy selected; that's absolutely ludicrous. To put that into perspective, your regular Voidforms will last about as long as our current PI Voidforms do on live. I've seen other people say it here already but before they do it again, overall spec balance has nothing to do with how strong or weak a setbonus is supposed to be. A setbonus should never be this strong, period. There's a couple of other outliers at the moment that will inevitably get nerfed as well at some point. T20 tuning has only just begun.
    when they decide on a final number for the 4 set, do you think the existence of surrender will force them to choose a number lower than if it wasn't a spell? agreed that the set is very strong atm.

  8. #28
    I'm not sure why you always feel the need to jump on me whenever I post something. In this case it's not even related to the topic at hand. Defending Blizzard? I am quite possibly the most critical of Blizzard of all the H2P shadow team. Have been throughout the entirety of the alpha and beta and I still am. Funnily enough the document you mention was my idea and I wrote about 95% of it, with the rest of the staff chiming in if they deemed it relevant to do so.

    It goes without saying that if nerfing the setbonus too much leaves shadow in a bad spot that baseline buffs are in order.

    Quote Originally Posted by kalaratic View Post
    when they decide on a final number for the 4 set, do you think the existence of surrender will force them to choose a number lower than if it wasn't a spell? agreed that the set is very strong atm.
    Quite possibly, I do feel like the devs wouldn't like Surrender to be a thing again because it limits their design space in more ways than just shadow. Either way, messing with the drain through a setbonus is not something I'm a massive fan of and I'm not entirely sure the devs understand just what kind of balancing nightmare they're getting themselves into this time around. I hope they get the balance right because it feels great to play with and it opens up a lot of possibilities even if they end up nerfing it. Risky business, but I applaud them for even trying in the first place.
    Last edited by Isentropy; 2017-05-15 at 10:14 PM.

  9. #29
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Isentropy View Post
    I'm not sure why you always feel the need to jump on me whenever I post something. In this case it's not even related to the topic at hand. Defending Blizzard? I am quite possibly the most critical of Blizzard of all the H2P shadow team. Have been throughout the entirety of the alpha and beta and I still am. Funnily enough the document you mention was my idea and I wrote about 95% of it, with the rest of the staff chiming in if they deemed it relevant to do so.

    It goes without saying that if nerfing the setbonus too much leaves shadow in a bad spot that baseline buffs are in order.
    Because you're no doubt the best player on here (and even on discord with few others) so it saddens me when you dont realize that the shadow you played during progress is, sadly, very different than the one we are playing now on guldan. :P We finally killed it but I really had no fun at all.

    And unless blizzard makes some big changes, the history will repeat itself, because shadow has always gotten weaker with time, while other classes get stronger. S2M fixed that, and before that our archi trinket did, now this tier we have neither and we see the results. Stuff dies too fast, skip mechanics, our dots are shit, and blizzard doesnt even buff us up to make up for it.
    Last edited by mmoca542e793be; 2017-05-15 at 10:32 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by rinelki View Post
    Because you're no doubt the best player on here (and even on discord with few others) so it saddens me when you dont realize that the shadow you played during progress is, sadly, very different than the one we are playing now on guldan. :P We finally killed it but I really had no fun at all.

    And unless blizzard makes some big changes, the history will repeat itself, because shadow has always gotten weaker with time, while other classes get stronger. S2M fixed that, and before that our archi trinket did, now this tier we have neither and we see the results.
    Quote from the aforementioned document:

    During early progression this made us a solid pick for the ranged DPS spot, but as is usually the case with shadow, the shorter fights get and the shorter adds live the weaker we get - so for players that are progressing in Nighthold now, they’ll probably see a different situation from the one we just described. While the current situation in 7.2 is not necessarily representative of how shadow performs during early progress, we’d like to reiterate that fight design covering for flaws in spec design only gets you so far, and looking at the fights in Tomb of Sargeras we think shadow could start lagging behind a little bit purely because it appears to be more single target oriented than Nighthold is. Our talents don’t offer us much to remedy that, either.
    I'm well aware.

  11. #31
    Dreadlord RsinRC's Avatar
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    I think the 4 set should stay the same and just bring STM to a "relative" level. I def like the current bonus over the shadowfiend one even though it would've been strong for single target. It helps our ST and our Multitarget.

    Also other classes power level will rise big time in all aspects of encounters while we'll stay horrendeously low with only stats giving us pure power.

    On the other hand I think this set bonus will keep us strong in progression but will become even worse once content becomes farm as we will not be able to put out burst damage but continue to have to extend voidform longer in order for our damage to peak. Basically we will be at a worse state than current NH in the later months. Why? Simply because in order to do more damage in this new next tier we will have to stay even longer in VF. Which is attractive but not so much as our ramp up time will be effectively extended.

    - - - Updated - - -

    A fix would be changing LoTV's interaction with Mass Hysteria or flat out buffing our dots but no effect when under stm
    Last edited by RsinRC; 2017-05-15 at 10:45 PM.

  12. #32
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    This set bonus should have been for tier 21, and I have the suspicion that that was their original plan.

    Our issue is the insane ramp up time we have, as I said in a previous thread. We are actually middle of the pack single target dps once we have voidform and lingering insanity rolling. The problem is that doesn't happen until a minute into a pull(this is also the reason for our crippling bad dps in M+).

    If we jumped up to 50 insanity every time we dropped combat and had Shadow Crash baseline, then I think a lot of our issues would be solved.

  13. #33
    Mechagnome Ailylia's Avatar
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    This is my concern: The 4pc bonus as it exists right is really nice and will be used by very talented players to completely dominate the meters. Top guilds will stack spriests for progression. People playing other classes will complain loudly. Blizzard will overreact and over-nerf spriest where it will stay for the rest of the expansion, and we're back to having to push ourselves to perfection just to have mediocre output.

    I feel like our best chance is getting the message out to Blizzard by actually testing these changes on the PTR as much as possible and as a community recommending the proper changes to enact good balance. However, I have to admit I am having difficulty maintaining a positive outlook on these things, as the howtopriest community posted a very reasonable and well stated argument for some positive changes that seems to have been largely ignored.

  14. #34
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by blgns View Post
    4p should not work with s2m and everyone will be happy
    If it doesn't, they would either replace s2m which is unlikely at this points or nerf it or just replace it with a new 4s.
    My guess would be the second option by nerfing it. ( Sad but true, 25% is a lot)

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    If it doesn't, they would either replace s2m which is unlikely at this points or nerf it or just replace it with a new 4s.
    My guess would be the second option by nerfing it. ( Sad but true, 25% is a lot)
    They could also just buff SC and LotV...

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baelic View Post
    They could also just buff SC and LotV...
    They could ofc, the thing is they know what the problem is with s2m.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    They could ofc, the thing is they know what the problem is with s2m.
    *plays dumb for the sake of discussion* And what would that be?

  18. #38
    Deleted
    We have been in a shit place for ages, like really, really, really shitty place with turd dps and 1 fight we excel on in the current raid. Blizzard change this on the ptr with a decent 4pc set and we are brought up and into line with the rest of our competition and all the Spriest community does is whine, bitch, moan, cry, whinge and call for world wide nerfs the spec.

    Seriously are you all that retarded? We have the chance to just maybe be in the top 5 dps again, but you all want the nerfs and spec buried in the shit again for another raid teir?

    When are people going to just embrace the positive changes even with S2m which is fun to play and just take the good news instead of being so fucking stupid and nerfing their own class.

    Or better yet, let's watch everyone moan like assholes and call for the nerf now only to bitch even more when blizzard implements the nerf you are all asking for and wonder how your own feedback has killed your spec in a months time.

    Call for more buffs you idiots make the spec great again not personally drive it into the shit asking for nerfs. Fuck me I want 50% reduction to insanity drain and 15% buff to all shadow damage

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Isentropy View Post
    It goes without saying that if nerfing the setbonus too much leaves shadow in a bad spot that baseline buffs are in order.
    If they want to fix our class for single target then they ought to buff mind blast by 150% and mindflay by 500%.

    These spells do not exponentially get better on Multi-Target fights and are actually not that much of our damage if you look on a ST fight. Mindblast on Trilliax is doing roughly 10-11% and Mindflay is doing...2.5% - Bring these spells up to par and BOOM we're instantly better on single target fights forever. I'm not sure why they don't see that it's that easy.

    Buffing Mindflay doesn't make us mindflay > other things, we still want to void bolt, we will 100% want to mind blast...I'm just not sure why they haven't considered this yet.

  20. #40
    It got nerfed, because it was fucking ludicrous. Ta da.

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