Why do YOU think Healthcare is a Right and not a Privilege?

[yurano]

Absolutely right. Prevention is better than repair. Which is we need a system in place that allows people easily accessible preventative care before they require a major hospital stay. Those in support of Universal Healthcare applaud your decision to join the cause.

Universal Healthcare goes beyond prevention. Everyone pushing for universal healthcare thinks of it as implementing healthcare at the level of private health insurance, but for everyone who can't pay. There are many expensive, niche treatments which universal healthcare would pay for which do not make fiscal sense.

I am for inexpensive preventative care, like free office visits, contraceptives, antibiotics, and setting a broken bone. I'm even for expensive care with greatly improved quality of life like hip replacements, etc. I am against the use of public funds for expensive 'treatments' with little success. Basically all of the sob-stories you hear about in the news, autism included (btw, the reason private insurance doesn't cover autism treatment unless the government mandates it is because those treatments don't work).

Because business restrictions totally don't fuck with the economy in worse ways, right?

Why do you think the US didn't even want to LOOK at something like the Kyoto Protocol? Cleaning up after the mess is actually less expensive than scaring business owners away.

More expensive for who?

There's a case study about a Missouri town whose dominant business was lead mining. Despite dying from lead poisoning and their children growing up mentally retarded, the citizens were strongly against shutting down the refinery. "Don't take errr jerbs!"

How about we not destroy the environment we live in, to help the corrupt become wealthier. We're not competing with China in a race to the bottom.

[Iamanerd]

How about the government fix the pollution instead of waiting to clean up the mess. Prevention is better than repair.

Talk about missing the point...



And I'm not buying your BS.

See what I did there? A non-argument argument.

Still completely missing the point, you are the one comparing China's healthcare to that of first world nations as if it mean't something. To top it off you came in with some bullshit story and nothing to back up your claim. See what I did there?

[yurano]

Still completely missing the point, you are the one comparing China's healthcare to that of first world nations as if it mean't something. To top it off you came in with some bullshit story and nothing to back up your claim. See what I did there?

Cept this was a true story bro

Nice try

[Jastall]

If I get a common cold I think I'll be fine.

And an elderly or more fragile person might not. It's one of the most common causes of death, in fact. And cold is hardly the only contagious condition, AIDs being a prime example. I'm sure someone better versed in medical sciences than me can conjure up a laundry list as well, and you sure pay for treatment for all this. So that argument doesn't work.

And you can extend the logic it to loads of things well. A policeman if I'm in distress, a Coast Guard if I'm drowning, a crisis response unit if I suffer a natural disaster in my area, a soldier if I'm threatened by some terrorist or whatnot? They all ''work for me'' and I don't pay their interventions. Because they're safeguarding me. Oh, I pay taxes that fund these services, sure, but not the actual interventions. For me, healthcare benefits from the same logic. It's just way too important to leave to a private market that cannot handle such a responsibility in the first place. Not to mention I find it borderline heartless to leave people to just deal with the vagaries of fate as if they deserve any misfortune that is dumped on them. Not when you pride yourself on being a first-world society.

@ Sulla: maybe if you live in a society of robots that never make mistake and always do the most economically viable thing that might work. The real world is rather more complicated than your perfect little scenario that cannot account for the mishaps of life. The fact remains that on average, Americans pay more for healthcare than anyone else in the world, both on a personal and governmental level. The principle of applying free market doesn't work, not on a country this large and this diverse in terms of income and social situations. You guys are shooting yourselves in the foot in order to keep a veneer of capitalism in a system that cannot and should not support it.

[Fencers]

Whether we want to pay for universal healthcare is intrinsically relevant and not something you can hand waive away.

Neither relevant or hand-waving.

As a species we ARE paying for it, right now. As citizens, you already are paying for it in your own medical costs, tax dollars and so forth. And that which you are paying is not effective.

The bulk of costs in the health care industry are administrative. High comparative wages and practices that encourage inefficient care are the next biggest shortcomings.

How you feel about this is indeed, irrelevant. Wanting to keep $40 in your pocket at the expense of thousands and thousands of dollars collectively is not rational. It's beneath consideration- just ignorance and selfishness.

[Captain N]

Universal Healthcare goes beyond prevention. Everyone pushing for universal healthcare thinks of it as implementing healthcare at the level of private health insurance, but for everyone who can't pay. There are many expensive, niche treatments which universal healthcare would pay for which do not make fiscal sense.

I am for inexpensive preventative care, like free office visits, contraceptives, antibiotics, and setting a broken bone. I'm even for expensive care with greatly improved quality of life like hip replacements, etc. I am against the use of public funds for expensive 'treatments' with little success. Basically all of the sob-stories you hear about in the news, autism included (btw, the reason private insurance doesn't cover autism treatment unless the government mandates it is because those treatments don't work).

Would you care to enlighten the class on what these other "Expensive Treatments" you're referring to are?

Any evidence of the autism treatment not working other than because you said so?

How you feel about this is indeed, irrelevant. Wanting to keep $40 in your pocket at the expense of thousands and thousands of dollars collectively is not rational. It's beneath consideration- just ignorance and selfishness.

Coincidentally a majority of American Workers could actually eat the 6% payroll tax that Sanders suggested placing on businesses and they would still pay less for their healthcare than they do currently. The elimination of co-pays, premiums, and out of pocket expenses seems to be lost on a lot of people.

[Iamanerd]

Cept this was a true story bro

Nice try

Says who bro? You? Back it up and you may have a point.

[xChurch]

It's in the best interest of every country to make sure their people are as healthy has can be so they can contribute the most possible to the country. This isn't really debatable.

[Scathbais]

Ah, the delicious irony of someone complimenting a factually inaccurate post. Two things,. First, the poster never claimed the Constitution enumerates a right to life. Second, what exactly is the difference between taking someone's life and denying them access to the healthcare they need to go on living?

No one is denying them access. They have access if they choose to pay for it. There is no constitutional right or otherwise to say someone else needs to pay for my stuff. It just doesn't exist.

[Uoyredrum]

Because we live in the real world where not all health problems (mental or physical) are a result of choice. In fact, I'd say less than half are a result of choice for most people. That, and being proactive and providing health care to the entire population saves everyone (including the government) money in the long run.

Basically, anyone who doesn't think healthcare is a right is wrong. There's no alternative.

[Ivanstone]

Wanting to keep $40 in your pocket at the expense of thousands and thousands of dollars collectively is not rational. It's beneath consideration- just ignorance and selfishness.

That $40 is important. So is all the property taxes and other assorted costs forced upon me by the Fire Department.

Whats the worst that could happen if the fire department wasn't there?

I mean besides some bastard torching my shop because I caught him embezzling years ago.

[yurano]

Would you care to enlighten the class on what these other "Expensive Treatments" you're referring to are?

Any evidence of the autism treatment not working other than because you said so?

An insurance actuary from Wisconsin gave my class a talk about how they choose to fund or not fund certain treatments. A lot of this information is privileged, and I doubt people write reviews discussing this topic.

Expensive treatments are anything that have poor cost efficacy to DALY. Currently Medicare/Medicaid is willing to pay $50K USD per DALY gained, which is way too much. However, they've grandfathered in many treatments that cost more than that. For example, the cost of implanting an LVAD is roughly $600K to gain people with heart failure an extra 5-10 years of life (by the way, the improvement to quality of life in an absolute sense is poor).

I would exclude many hospital treatments from universal healthcare, including: most cancer treatments (most of these are expensive, are not curative, and barely prolong life), HIV and Hepatitis C treatments (as effective as they are, they cost about a quarter million per year, for the rest of their life), dialysis (approximately $50K/yr, chronic cases eg diabetes never actually get better), etc

Says who bro? You? Back it up and you may have a point.

No u

[Dangg]

Why the fuck do americans pay ~30% taxes when they recieve pretty much nothing and need to purchase stuff like education and health?

And you are even defending the system...

[Fencers]

The way I see it, it's a basic social deal: I pay taxes, the state grants me and my children security, healthcare and education. If I don't receive any of those, then what am I paying for?

Well said! *thumbs up emoji*

[Glorious Leader]

Because I value life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Healthcare is central to all these things.

[yurano]

That $40 is important. So is all the property taxes and other assorted costs forced upon me by the Fire Department.

Whats the worst that could happen if the fire department wasn't there?

I mean besides some bastard torching my shop because I caught him embezzling years ago.

You would have an argument if you were able to prove that the fire department is corrupt (eg providing little gain for the tax dollars they receive). With the number of scandals going on right now regarding the fire department, you would be correct.

However, its not correct to assume a small amount of fire department expenditures is unwarranted. They, like many other government services (police, roads, etc) are a form of social insurance, pooling risk to minimize cost to any one person.

Why the fuck do americans pay ~30% taxes when they recieve pretty much nothing and need to purchase stuff like education and health?

And you are even defending the system...

Americans pay much less than Europeans, that's for sure.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/brief...nternationally

[Captain N]

An insurance actuary from Wisconsin gave my class a talk about how they choose to fund or not fund certain treatments. A lot of this information is privileged, and I doubt people write reviews discussing this topic.

Expensive treatments are anything that have poor cost efficacy to DALY. Currently Medicare/Medicaid is willing to pay $50K USD per DALY gained, which is way too much. However, they've grandfathered in many treatments that cost more than that. For example, the cost of implanting an LVAD is roughly $600K to gain people with heart failure an extra 5-10 years of life (by the way, the improvement to quality of life in an absolute sense is poor).

I would exclude many hospital treatments from universal healthcare, including: most cancer treatments (most of these are expensive, are not curative, and barely prolong life), HIV and Hepatitis C treatments (as effective as they are, they cost about a quarter million per year, for the rest of their life), dialysis (approximately $50K/yr, chronic cases eg diabetes never actually get better), etc

Sounds like you have an issue with pharmaceutical companies more so than actual healthcare. I'm actually glad you brought up Cancer treatments as my wife is an oncology nurse at a research hospital here in Chicago. People are living longer more meaningful lives due to the care of her and her co-workers. The price of the drugs however is incredibly high (higher than many other first world nations).

What you're advocating is letting people die because of the drug costs -- your argument isn't even about general healthcare and has gone down the path of. Well we can't cure them..they need to die because I'm not paying for it.

[yurano]

Sounds like you have an issue with pharmaceutical companies more so than actual healthcare. I'm actually glad you brought up Cancer treatments as my wife is an oncology nurse at a research hospital here in Chicago. People are living longer more meaningful lives due to the care of her and her co-workers. The price of the drugs however is incredibly high (higher than many other first world nations).

What you're advocating is letting people die because of the drug costs -- your argument isn't even about general healthcare and has gone down the path of. Well we can't cure them..they need to die because I'm not paying for it.

Yes, rather lets throw good money after bad. Prolong their misery because we ought to do so "on principle"!

I was going to include other non-medical treatments, like CABGs, stroke treatment, brain surgery, etc but meds are by far and away the most expensive.

[Hablion]

Personally I think Healthcare is a privilege and not a right.

If you misuse your body you should have to deal with the consequences unless you have purchased protection in the form of insurance.

Also, in ANY civilized country, no hospital is going to turn you away if you have something life threatening that HAS to be taken care of even if you don't have insurance.

Forcing doctors to see patients under universal health care greatly diminishes a doctors will to continue practicing. It also reduces the will of any people who would be willing to undergo 10+ years of education to become a doctor because the limited ability to make good money in the profession.

Doctors do hot have to treat uninsured people they just have to stabilize them and throw them out the door and this is only if the hospital is taking public money a private hospital can deny them completely.

[Nadiru]

It's a right to some extent. It's unacceptable for people to die because they couldn't afford treatment for injuries and illnesses acquired through the course of their profession. Is it equally unacceptable for people to die because they couldn't afford treatment for the same acquired through lifestyle choices? I personally think it's worth the cost, though I suspect the right-wingers don't want their tax dollars funding HIV treatments for "the gays" and the left-wingers don't want their tax dollars funding dental and obesity treatments for "the trailer trash" but neither side ever gets what they really want here anyway.