Why do YOU think Healthcare is a Right and not a Privilege?

[Daelak]

Wouldn't letting them die from the bad choice do the same thing? Last I checked funerals are 10 thousand usd. Versus 1 million per year to keep them alive and their insurance rates don't skyrocket like everyone else?

There wouldn't be insurance. Letting them die would create worse outcomes for your community in real estate depreciation, more crimes being committed, brain drain to areas with more assistance and higher quality of life.

[NineSpine]

So you agree that people that have used street drugs their entire adult life deserve to be insured with your tax dollars? At the rate of almost 1 million usd per year? Then you complain that there isn't money to take care of you? Are you serious?

It's not about "deserve". It's about what system works better. What system creates a healthier population for the least amount of money? The answer is a universal healthcare system. The rest of the argument is bullshit. We should adopt the system that works the best, not the system that matches best to whatever your personal moral stances are. I don't care who you think deserves or doesn't deserve anything.

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Wouldn't letting them die from the bad choice do the same thing? Last I checked funerals are 10 thousand usd. Versus 1 million per year to keep them alive and their insurance rates don't skyrocket like everyone else?

Call me when a northern european nation goes bankrupt from treating drug addicts.

[Barnabas]

There wouldn't be insurance. Letting them die would create worse outcomes for your community in real estate depreciation, more crimes being committed, brain drain to areas with more assistance and higher quality of life.

Well enabling people with serious drug problems does the exact same thing. I rather see the money diverted to more outreach than "well it's ok if you fuck yourself over because we'll keep you alive at any cost for as long as you are alive." That philosophy hasn't worked.

[Daelak]

Well enabling people with serious drug problems does the exact same thing. I rather see the money diverted to more outreach than "well it's ok if you fuck yourself over because we'll keep you alive at any cost for as long as you are alive." That philosophy hasn't worked.

People with drug addictions would be admitted into drug rehab, where they can start a path to a new life, without falling into a trap like medical bankruptcy from drug rehab bills.

[Barnabas]

It's not about "deserve". It's about what system works better. What system creates a healthier population for the least amount of money? The answer is a universal healthcare system. The rest of the argument is bullshit. We should adopt the system that works the best, not the system that matches best to whatever your personal moral stances are. I don't care who you think deserves or doesn't deserve anything.

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Call me when a northern european nation goes bankrupt from treating drug addicts.

You are comparing apples to oranges now.

[NineSpine]

Well enabling people with serious drug problems does the exact same thing. I rather see the money diverted to more outreach than "well it's ok if you fuck yourself over because we'll keep you alive at any cost for as long as you are alive." That philosophy hasn't worked.

It's not your job to spank people when they are naughty. Get over yourself with this enabling bullshit. Do you know what countries have less drug problems than the US? The European nations with universal healthcare.

[Barnabas]

People with drug addictions would be admitted into drug rehab, where they can start a path to a new life, without falling into a trap like medical bankruptcy from drug rehab bills.

I rather see more of that then enabling them further. Even though it fails a great deal of the time at least it reaches out to some so they stop. Rather than free healthcare for life regardless of your stupid choice.

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It's not your job to spank people when they are naughty. Get over yourself with this enabling bullshit. Do you know what countries have less drug problems than the US? The European nations with universal healthcare.

Again you are comparing apples to oranges. Here is why we don't have that here. It's brutally honest also.

http://www.pnhp.org/facts/a-brief-hi...rNl9w.facebook

[petej0]

Personal responsibility is a conservative meme.

I think it makes sense in some discussions.

It doesn't mean anything outside of hand-waving a way to have a debate with nuance and detail regarding healthcare for citizens, because conservatives know universal healthcare with one large risk pool of 320 million people is the only way to increase access and stop healthcare cost volatility.

Just because health care costs will be paid for by a single entity does not mean volatility would stop. There is a lot of nuance and detail, there is a lot of cost concerns. The issue of health care can not be summed up in 30 sec sound clips on the alphabet news media stations. It cant be solved in 2 min speech and 30 second rebuttals during debates. Yet this is how the public ingests these issues. It is why we dont have any substantive solution to Health Care, Guns, College Costs, or Drug Policy. It is just a bunch of heads in boxes talking over each other.

I am for Universal Care and you can convince Conservatives to it, but shouting over and demeaning each other is not going to do it.

[NineSpine]

I rather see more of that then enabling them further. Even though it fails a great deal of the time at least it reaches out to some so they stop. Rather than free healthcare for life regardless of your stupid choice.

If you were right, Norway would be drowning in drugs and the U.S. (the developed nation with the stiffest social, health, and legal penalties for drug use) would have no drug problem. The opposite is true. You need to learn that when your thought experiments don't match what is happening the real world, your thought experiments are faulty.

[Barnabas]

If you were right, Norway would be drowning in drugs and the U.S. (the developed nation with the stiffest social, health, and legal penalties for drug use) would have no drug problem. The opposite is true. You need to learn that when your thought experiments don't match what is happening the real world, your thought experiments are faulty.

Norway has 5 million people. My city has double that. So pick your us city that is equivalent to compare. We can debate this even on a county level versus your country.

[NineSpine]

Norway has 5 million people. My city has double that. So pick your us city that is equivalent to compare. We can debate this even on a county level versus your country.

How does population size have any bearing on how public policy impacts drug use rates? This is the dumbest go-to argument in history. Inconvenient fact comes up? WELL THEIR POPULATION IS DIFFERENT! Who the fuck cares? How does that make ANY difference whatsoever in drug use rates?

[Barnabas]

How does population size have any bearing on how public policy impacts drug use rates? This is the dumbest go-to argument in history. Inconvenient fact comes up? WELL THEIR POPULATION IS DIFFERENT! Who the fuck cares? How does that make ANY difference whatsoever in drug use rates?

Plenty because you keep comparing apples to oranges. I'm trying to level the playing field a bit more. Congrats norway has more drunks per capita than the US on average.

[NineSpine]

Plenty because you keep comparing apples to oranges. I'm trying to level the playing field a bit more.

No, you're trying to deflect in order to hang onto a clearly stupid point. Two countries with different population levels is not "apples and oranges". It is "Apples and apples". It is country vs country. The US has the worst drug problem in the developed world, and it also has the stiffest penalties for drug use. The reality is literally the OPPOSITE of your argument. Thought experiments cannot replace reality.

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Plenty because you keep comparing apples to oranges. I'm trying to level the playing field a bit more. Congrats norway has more drunks per capita than the US on average.

http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/p...ofiles/nor.pdf
http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/p...ofiles/usa.pdf

The difference is statistically insignificant.

[Naxere]

Legal defense is a right, isn't it?

You can defend yourself.

[Barnabas]

No, you're trying to deflect in order to hang onto a clearly stupid point. Two countries with different population levels is not "apples and oranges". It is "Apples and apples". It is country vs country. The US has the worst drug problem in the developed world, and it also has the stiffest penalties for drug use. The reality is literally the OPPOSITE of your argument. Thought experiments cannot replace reality.

We have two different healthcare systems. It's the point for whatever reason you are failing to grasp. The argument "well our system is better than yours" is opinion. Who cares?

[Mackwiss]

Yet we have people that have abused drugs their entire life and they cost more to care for than you do. So if you fall outside of not your fault then it's not about you.

It actually is because in the country where I live on, I pay 230€ of Asthma medication because the Health care is Private. While in my native country, in Western Europe, my meds cost me less than 30€ a month because they are partially paid by the state...

So... I'm a "drug mule"... I go home and I spend around 200€ in meds that will last me for 6 months... so I can survive!

Isn't private health care amazing? \o/



It's actually hillarious that there are people that are so blinded they actually defend private healthcare and have the guts to say it's because miss use their bodies...

So because a bunch of people don't know how to take care of themselves EVERYONE has to be screwed and die because they don't have healthcare... That's the contrary of being rational. You don't make laws to screw the general population because of the bad apples you make laws that will PROTECT everyone and fiscalize the bad apples. That's what countries with Universal, state sponsored health care do, and they are way better than any state in America right now.

So my advice to you is, take a plane, leave your little american bubble and go see the world. Then we can discuss this matter again. Until then you and everyone with your opinion are a complete joke to everyone outside the U.S.

[Benssax]

You still don;t get to decide on the definition of that word, sorry, its not your right

Guess what same for you. Its not a right.

[NineSpine]

We have two different healthcare systems. It's the point for whatever reason you are failing to grasp. The argument "well our system is better than yours" is opinion. Who cares?

It is not opinion. There are actual metrics of cost and healthcare outcomes. The U.S. system lags behind most of the developed world while also costing twice as much. Even if the U.S. system had slightly BETTER health outcomes, the fact that it costs TWICE as much would mean it is a worse system.

[Daelak]

I think it makes sense in some discussions.



Just because health care costs will be paid for by a single entity does not mean volatility would stop. There is a lot of nuance and detail, there is a lot of cost concerns. The issue of health care can not be summed up in 30 sec sound clips on the alphabet news media stations. It cant be solved in 2 min speech and 30 second rebuttals during debates. Yet this is how the public ingests these issues. It is why we dont have any substantive solution to Health Care, Guns, College Costs, or Drug Policy. It is just a bunch of heads in boxes talking over each other.

I am for Universal Care and you can convince Conservatives to it, but shouting over and demeaning each other is not going to do it.

No honest discussion about public policy, meaning prioritizing funding, research, to national issues.

It would be stemmed in far larger numbers than some piecemeal "free market" reform of letting insurance companies compete across state lines for the same pool of sick and dying people applying for insurance. The only issues where price volatility and structural threats on a universal system is when the average age of the pool raises, like in Japan for instance.

[Allybeboba]

Quite a good read this thread is...