Why do YOU think Healthcare is a Right and not a Privilege?

[Deleted]

You can defend yourself.

And if you are incapable of such, aren't you granted legal advise from a professional?

[Tyrianth]

If you actually did any analysis of that chart you would have noticed that the USA has the highest obesity rates. This is one of the biggest reasons the life expectancy is lower. Higher quality healthcare doesn't fix people's poor diets.

Sooooo thanks for proving my point I guess.

Correlation does not equal causation. Nobody proved your point.

According to you, greater obesity equals worse health care outcomes.

New Zealand has the next highest obesity rates out of the countries on that chart, yet they still out perform other, less obese, countries. The only thing New Zealand doesn't out perform other countries on is infant mortality. Which isn't really related to obesity. While the US is literally the worst in every category. Congrats on the low smoking rates though.

[Docturphil]

Correlation does not equal causation. Nobody proved your point.

Proved? No. Perhaps that was the wrong word. Supported is probably a better word.

According to you, greater obesity equals worse health care outcomes.

Obesity equals poor health. That's going to have a negative impact on healthcare outcomes. That's going to have a negative impact on life expectancy. Soooo yeah. Are you actually trying to debate that high rates of obesity does not have a negative impact on healthcare outcomes?

New Zealand has the next highest obesity rates out of the countries on that chart, yet they still out perform other, less obese, countries. The only thing New Zealand doesn't out perform other countries on is infant mortality. Which isn't really related to obesity. While the US is literally the worst in every category. Congrats on the low smoking rates though.

Oh, you're right. That chart is all we need to know. I retract everything I said because of the obvious fact that we don't need to consider anything else other than that chart.

But seriously though, did you consider that the high rates of chronic conditions could be partially related to obesity? And high infant mortality could be due to a combination of a thousand other reasons other than quality of healthcare. My point is that the chart in question does not provide us with enough information to really draw any sort of conclusions regarding healthcare.

[Vash The Stampede]

even if you consider health care a right, something being a right doesn't mean you can force someone else to pay for it, I have a right to own a gun are you willing to pay for it?

I like how you compared something that saves lives to something that's built to end them. Totally reasonably really, it's like comparing the right to breath vs the right to suffocate.

[nanook12]

Nearly every other developed nation in the world has universal healthcare paid for by taxes, but I gotta listen to some archaic fucks left over from the neanderthal period bitch and moan about a few fucking dollars off their weekly pay checks. Get with the times and rest of the world you morons!

I wish we could split the USA in half. One half would be the republican, no taxes, no government, no rules idiots, and the other half would be civilized law abiding citizens. Eventually, the "wild west" ignoramuses would kill each other off and we could just take their land.

[Tyrianth]

Proved? No. Perhaps that was the wrong word. Supported is probably a better word.



Obesity equals poor health. That's going to have a negative impact on healthcare outcomes. That's going to have a negative impact on life expectancy. Soooo yeah. Are you actually trying to debate that high rates of obesity does not have a negative impact on healthcare outcomes?



Oh, you're right. That chart is all we need to know. I retract everything I said because of the obvious fact that we don't need to consider anything else other than that chart.

But seriously though, did you consider that the high rates of chronic conditions could be partially related to obesity? And high infant mortality could be due to a combination of a thousand other reasons other than quality of healthcare. My point is that the chart in question does not provide us with enough information to really draw any sort of conclusions regarding healthcare.

Good thing that chart isn't the only source of information on international healthcare outcomes.

According the WHO, the US is behind countries in Western Europe, Canada, and Australia for Healthcare Performance. And it ranks the US 37th in overall healthcare efficiency

The Commonwealth Fund places the US 5th out of the 11 countries for quality of care

[Easo]

I fail to see the need to debate the obvious - healthcare is a right. All the possible reasons for there were given ages ago, yet some obtuse... people... insist on something else. I really fail the need to debate this. Oh, well, except in USA, where bill in tens of thousands for the random Joe is somehow supposed to be OKay. Also probably his fault. Just because.
xD

[PosPosPos]

If you actually did any analysis of that chart you would have noticed that the USA has the highest obesity rates. This is one of the biggest reasons the life expectancy is lower. Higher quality healthcare doesn't fix people's poor diets.

Sooooo thanks for proving my point I guess.

The US has one of the highest ceilings when it comes to healthcare quality - namely, if you can afford the best doctors and the best medical treatment. But unfortunately, even though it's quite obvious to anyone who's not a zealot like you, the floor for healthcare, namely, the healthcare that the general populace with median or lower incomes have access to is a lot lower than other developed nations.

As for why the US has high obesity rates, there are three main reasons:

1) Republicans hate education, so learning the importance of eating/exercising healthily through theory and practicality(specifically the awful fat/carbohydrate/sugar laden school lunches) is utterly thrown out of the window in favor of religion and poor-shaming studies.
2) Healthy food is more expensive than eating junk food at fast food outlets. No thanks to a certain far-right party for incentivizing corporations to do exactly just that.
3) Again, Republicans are responsible for disincentivizing people who need to visit a doctor to control their weight/unhealthy eating/thyroid problems by making a healthcare system where doctors are better off keeping people sick and/or dispensing unneeded/overpriced medication and treatment.

In short, most, if not all of the biggest problems in America right now are caused by and exacerbated by Republicans.

[Naxere]

And if you are incapable of such, aren't you granted legal advise from a professional?

A legal right, via a law (or constitution) not a human right. It doesn't exist in every country in the world.

[Tyrianth]

A legal right, via a law (or constitution) not a human right. It doesn't exist in every country in the world.

If that's your definition of human right then there is no such thing as a human right as there is no right that exists in every country.

[Haven]

To make your own society better? I pay taxes which then helps build 10 schools in the other end of the country, does it benefit me? Fuck no, but i'm not that narrowminded not to see that it betters the country.

That goes into "eudcation" category, which I listed. Security, healthcare, education.

[Rotted]

Personally I think Healthcare is a privilege and not a right.

If you misuse your body you should have to deal with the consequences unless you have purchased protection in the form of insurance.

Also, in ANY civilized country, no hospital is going to turn you away if you have something life threatening that HAS to be taken care of even if you don't have insurance.

Forcing doctors to see patients under universal health care greatly diminishes a doctors will to continue practicing. It also reduces the will of any people who would be willing to undergo 10+ years of education to become a doctor because the limited ability to make good money in the profession.

What? Your title is incredibly misleading. Either that your actually suggesting anyone without a life threatening condition, say cancer should pay?

What about people with genuine conditions what aren't life threatening?
What about people who have genuine eating dis orders like anorexia
What about legitimate none stop eating disorder (I for the life of me can't remember what it's called, but it's when the stomach lacks the ability to send a signal to the rest of the body to say it's full or been fed)

The list goes on,

Here in the UK, our doctors get shit deals I'll grant you that, mostly due to their contracted hours not their actual rate of pay. Other players do pay more granted, for example my specialist fucked off to Australia because he got triple pay and a house paid for under the condition of x amount of years in service.

As for your civilized country comment I laughed.

My mother was visiting America one time, she come down with something and needless to say without medical attention, she would of literally died of dehydration from continuous diarrhea. I shit you not, she sat in a waiting room and she couldn't even get a glass of water before her insurance papers had cleared. Frankly it was disgusting, they wouldn't even give her basic care, not even a fucking drip of saline for rehydration until they had confirmation.

Now my American flat mate here, he's a student, had been in the country for two years as one. One night our training instructor popped him so hard with his knee in the gut his appendix burst, (granted they were on the way out), we didn't realize at first as he was that hung over, later that night when I knew something was wrong I carried him to the hospital, he was literally yellow in the face. The receptionist took one look at him and before we knew it he was in a wheel chair being carted off behind the scenes, he saw immediate care (while I was filling in the paper work, so they knew he was foreign) and he had the operation to remove what was left of them hours later. It was only on the day of the discharge did they start to go over insurance paper work.

And just for record, his insurance was charged 5k, when he went home and checked it out over the summer and saw his doctor, his doctor said it would of been in the region of 25k there

[petej0]

The US has one of the highest ceilings when it comes to healthcare quality - namely, if you can afford the best doctors and the best medical treatment. But unfortunately, even though it's quite obvious to anyone who's not a zealot like you, the floor for healthcare, namely, the healthcare that the general populace with median or lower incomes have access to is a lot lower than other developed nations.

As for why the US has high obesity rates, there are three main reasons:

1) Republicans hate education, so learning the importance of eating/exercising healthily through theory and practicality(specifically the awful fat/carbohydrate/sugar laden school lunches) is utterly thrown out of the window in favor of religion and poor-shaming studies.
2) Healthy food is more expensive than eating junk food at fast food outlets. No thanks to a certain far-right party for incentivizing corporations to do exactly just that.
3) Again, Republicans are responsible for disincentivizing people who need to visit a doctor to control their weight/unhealthy eating/thyroid problems by making a healthcare system where doctors are better off keeping people sick and/or dispensing unneeded/overpriced medication and treatment.

In short, most, if not all of the biggest problems in America right now are caused by and exacerbated by Republicans.

Jesus fucking Christ. You had me until the Republican bashing started. Do you have any source for these claims or do you just like to bash Republicans when it is easy?

We have high obesity rates because we are surrounded by cheap food, caused by our food policy.
We have high obesity rates because baby formula is loaded with so much HFCS that we are starting to see obesity affect 4 month old babies.
We have high obesity rates because a family thinks its easier to go out for fast food then prepare a meal at home.
We have high obesity rates because people are unaware, evidence by the lawsuits, that fast food is bad for them.
We have high obesity rates because tv, internet video games have replaced going outside to play.
We have high obesity rates because kids in the inner city are afraid to go out to play because they fear the gangs that thrive in their neighborhoods
We have high obesity rates because kids in suburbs are kept inside because parents have a constant fear the boogey many will abduct their child
We have high obesity rates because we teach people "to be you" and no need to lose weight to conform to society norms.
We have high obesity rates because Coke, Pepsi, & Starbucks have become a staple of our daily diet.
We have high obesity rates because you can literally get up, go to work, get lunch, get dinner, and go to bed and not break 100 in total steps for the day.

[breadisfunny]

Good thing that chart isn't the only source of information on international healthcare outcomes.

According the WHO, the US is behind countries in Western Europe, Canada, and Australia for Healthcare Performance. And it ranks the US 37th in overall healthcare efficiency

The Commonwealth Fund places the US 5th out of the 11 countries for quality of care

your first link is a study done in 1997....in fact i remember reading about that when i was in high school....

[Docturphil]

...a zealot like you...

...



Awesome...

- - - Updated - - -

As for why the US has high obesity rates, there are three main reasons:

1) Republicans hate education, so learning the importance of eating/exercising healthily through theory and practicality(specifically the awful fat/carbohydrate/sugar laden school lunches) is utterly thrown out of the window in favor of religion and poor-shaming studies.
2) Healthy food is more expensive than eating junk food at fast food outlets. No thanks to a certain far-right party for incentivizing corporations to do exactly just that.
3) Again, Republicans are responsible for disincentivizing people who need to visit a doctor to control their weight/unhealthy eating/thyroid problems by making a healthcare system where doctors are better off keeping people sick and/or dispensing unneeded/overpriced medication and treatment.

In short, most, if not all of the biggest problems in America right now are caused by and exacerbated by Republicans.

Or maybe the real problem is that people think they can just blame the government for all of their problems.

[Geschan]

Personally I think Healthcare is a privilege(1) and not a right.

If you misuse your body you should have to deal with the consequences unless you have purchased protection in the form of insurance.

Also, in ANY civilized country, no hospital is going to turn you away if you have something life threatening that HAS to be taken care of even if you don't have insurance(2).

Forcing doctors to see patients under universal health care greatly diminishes a doctors will to continue practicing. It also reduces the will of any people who would be willing to undergo 10+ years of education to become a doctor because the limited ability to make good money in the profession.

1)
Quote from the Declaration of Human Rights:

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Healthcare is a right. If a person is deliberately hurting them self for whatever reason, even than they have right to healthcare (mental healthcare). Sorry Jaylock

2)
The difference is what follows after being discharged. In most developed countries there is some kind of national social healthcare system. If you have for example a chronic disease, you get the medicine to treat that condition, in order to manage it. The reason for that is a) human rights and b) cost efficiency. Most of the times it is cheaper to treat chronic conditions in order to manage them instead of letting them escalate until they get life threatening. The only way to achieve that is some kind of national social healthcare system.
If such a system is not in place, the "poor" are trapped in a circle of emergency hospital visits.
Let's take a diabetic for example. Unless he is administered insulin in order to treat the condition, he will sooner or later be a case for the emergency hospital. If he fucks up bad, he lands in the hospital immediatly because of diabetic coma. If he somehow manages (highly unlikely), he sooner or later fucks up his kidneys so bad that they shut down. The end is the same. A trip to the emergency room.
The problem is the hospital does NOT treat chronic diseases. It stabilizes the patient and the patient is discharged.
And that is why some kind of national social healthcare system is needed. Emergency care only is not enough.


Since a lot of people have mentioned obesity:
The mathematics of weight loss
Loosing weight is NOT black magic. It is quite simple.
It's about input vs. output for the most part.
And EVERYBODY should know that. If there were a place where everyone had to go to learn shit, that would be great.

[Orlong]

Are infants also dieing for obesity? Is AU and NZ still doing something that we can learn from looking at their obesity rates? You have to be in denial to think the $3000 hospital visit to get pain relief prescription is cost effective. Again, our spending on healthcare has given zero ROI.

The infant mortality rate would be much lower if they didnt count infant deaths that occurred due to the parents not taking them to the doctor, and those who died because the parents didnt have insurance on them. If they strictly looked at those who had regular checkups and were given the quality care that is given when you go to the doctor, the US would by far have the lowest infant mortality rate.

You were arguing that the US doesnt have the best care when in fact they do for those who receive it. Lumping in people who either refuse to go to the doctor, or refuse to get insurance, and suffer the consequences in with everyone else skews the numbers

[Deleted]

Sure Mr Jay. If i see you in the street having a seazure, i shall ignore your pain, because it is a privelige and not a right, even if it's a genetic disease you have no fault of. You have to pay me for me to care. Because beeing heartless is a human trait (probably given by God right?).

Things only said in the internet. Some people are so broken they can't even feel empathy.

[Spectral]

The US has one of the highest ceilings when it comes to healthcare quality - namely, if you can afford the best doctors and the best medical treatment. But unfortunately, even though it's quite obvious to anyone who's not a zealot like you, the floor for healthcare, namely, the healthcare that the general populace with median or lower incomes have access to is a lot lower than other developed nations.

As for why the US has high obesity rates, there are three main reasons:

1) Republicans hate education, so learning the importance of eating/exercising healthily through theory and practicality(specifically the awful fat/carbohydrate/sugar laden school lunches) is utterly thrown out of the window in favor of religion and poor-shaming studies.
2) Healthy food is more expensive than eating junk food at fast food outlets. No thanks to a certain far-right party for incentivizing corporations to do exactly just that.
3) Again, Republicans are responsible for disincentivizing people who need to visit a doctor to control their weight/unhealthy eating/thyroid problems by making a healthcare system where doctors are better off keeping people sick and/or dispensing unneeded/overpriced medication and treatment.

In short, most, if not all of the biggest problems in America right now are caused by and exacerbated by Republicans.

Dang, if only people knew that eating too much caused weight gain. Fucking Republicans though.

This is beyond parody.

[Grym]

How much money are we talking here? Enough to live upper middle class, or enough to eat bread? Cause I doubt there's a doctor is Europe who eats ramen noodles to survive. What about Canadian Doctors, are they homeless?

No, but could they have done better elsewhere?

I work in Finance and my best friend work as a teacher, he had to go through teacher's training whereas I had to go through professional studies, while mine took longer but only slightly. However seeing the difference in pay he always question his choice, but it is too late for him to start fresh again to change career path especially he just had a little one, so start from bottom of a ladder again is a no go for him.

If doctor pay isn't good, they will wonder if they spent their 10 years in Finance or IT or other money making field, would it have been better? Sure doctor may be doing pretty well off, but if you can be fully professionally qualified in a shorter amount of time, sit in an office, slightly better hours, but making more money, who would want to be a doctor?