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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Players know this. At least anyone who pays attention.

    The Alliance characters do not. And nobody from the Horde has bothered to even send a letter explaining it. People arguing that the Horde has betrayed the Alliance are almost always arguing it from the Alliance's perspective.
    Khadgar knows exactly what happened and it would be absurd if he never spoke to the leaders of the alliance about it BUT it doesnt matter.

    Genn wants his pound of flesh and the other leaders are either too busy with there own problems like Tyrande and her husband and Valen and the demon invasion or Anduin who is still crying over his dead daddy to stop him.

  2. #22
    The only thing i found funny is that horde are always like "Lok'tar OGAR" Victory or death. I never heard them say "victory or run when shit gets scary"

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    Blizzard wants the tension. They want the conflict between the two factions.
    Plague flowers?
    O Flora, of the moon, of the dream. O Little ones, O fleeting will of the ancients. Let the hunter be safe. Let them find comfort. And let this dream, their captor, Foretell a pleasant awakening

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by bgdfahrq View Post
    Khadgar knows exactly what happened and it would be absurd if he never spoke to the leaders of the alliance about it BUT it doesnt matter.
    No he doesn't. Khadgar wasn't at the first Broken Shore attack.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    No he doesn't. Khadgar wasn't at the first Broken Shore attack.
    He talks to you about it once you finish the broken shore questline just before you meet up with a pretty dead and dying vol'jin!

    He practically describes to you how it went down on the horde side!

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by bgdfahrq View Post
    He talks to you about it once you finish the broken shore questline just before you meet up with a pretty dead and dying vol'jin!

    He practically describes to you how it went down on the horde side!
    He hears about how it went down, he wasn't there. He doesn't show up at any point in the scenario. Jaina was leading the Kirin Tor at that point still. The Kirin Tor there were only on the Alliance's side in the intro.

    Khadgar confronts Gul'dan in the Tomb and then retreats back to Dalaran and then goes to Stormwind to warn the Alliance and, after, the Horde.

    If you want to make the argument that a Horde agent could have told him, sure, I agree. But he wasn't there during the battle and didn't see how it went down.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2017-05-17 at 09:10 PM.

  7. #27
    The Alliance abandoned the Horde by sticking around and letting our king get killed. Stupid Alliance. I blame Jaina. She's a dreadlord/sargeras.

    It's the white hair. It makes you crazy, look what it did to Doc and Marty had to suffer for it with the time machine and all.

  8. #28
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Players know this. At least anyone who pays attention.

    The Alliance characters do not. And nobody from the Horde has bothered to even send a letter explaining it. People arguing that the Horde has betrayed the Alliance are almost always arguing it from the Alliance's perspective.
    This is the key thing. If you watch the Alliance cinematic, it sure looks like the Horde abandons the Alliance. Yes as players see both cinematic and thus know the full story... but the in game Alliance NPCs only know the what is shown in the Alliance version of the cinematic. If you want to continue down that reasoning, keep in mind the Alliance's recent experiences with the Horde...

    MoP: Garrosh grabs Sha power and goes genocidal
    WoD: Dammit, another set of Orcs trying to kill us. Oh and they were setup by Garrosh.
    Legion: We see them turn and walk away.

    In Stormheim there are Forsaken TRYING TO KILL US.

    Is it really a surprise that the Alliance doesn't trust the Horde and is prone to believe they were abandoned?
    Last edited by clevin; 2017-05-17 at 09:21 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    No he doesn't. Khadgar wasn't at the first Broken Shore attack.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMxtw6k46Zg skip to 17:15

    And there is khadgar i think if you speak to him he tells you what happens so yes he does know what went down it doesnt matter if he was there or not.
    Last edited by yetgdhfgh; 2017-05-17 at 09:24 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by bgdfahrq View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMxtw6k46Zg skip to 17:15

    And there is khadgar i think if you speak to him he tells you what happens so yes he does know what went down it doesnt matter if he was there or not.
    Yes, it definitely DOES matter if he was there or not. If he just heard "Oh we had to retreat, Varian died, and Vol'jin suffered a mortal wound" that's not the same thing as "We had to retreat and the Alliance thinks we betrayed them."

    Khadgar isn't in the meeting with the Horde leaders where Lor'themar says that the Alliance believes they betrayed them.

  11. #31
    Over 9000! Saverem's Avatar
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    I'd say right now it's mostly Graymane vs Sylvannas.


    - Tyrande is mostly neutral. In fact, she accepts your help and lets you ride with her and stuff in Val even if you play as Horde (even though she talks rudely to you)

    - Magni is very neutral, he's more worried about talking to his bro and going on adventures.

    - Same with the Gnome leader. He seems interested in tinkering and stuff over politics.

    - The new leader, Anduin is actually actively trying to mend relations with the Horde.

    - Velen is more worried about defeating the Legion (and his brothers) than the squabbles between factions.


    On the Horde side:

    - Thrall is in Anduin's boat in trying to mend relations. Although he isn't really a Horde leader any more, he still holds great influence over the Horde.

    - Goblin leader is mostly interested in his dealing and gambling and shit. $$ will probably influence whether he hates or loves the Alliance.

    - BELF leaders are hanging out with NELF leaders during NH invasion. They seem OK. They're not BFFs with NELFs, but they're wiling to work with them for the greater good.

    - Troll leader be dead.

    - Blaine also seems pretty chill and would much rather prefer peace over war with the Alliance.




    Again, only leaves Grayman and Sylvannas holding up the grudge. Jaina is in there too, but she's not very influential (yet).
    "It's not what we don't know that gets us into trouble; it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." ~ Mark Twain
    "The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time" ~ Jesus of Nazareth
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by whynotchris View Post
    I'm just a bit annoyed that in the game story, the Alliance still believes the Horde left them to die on the Broken Front. Aside from just telling them, Vol'Jin is dead. They have to know that, right?! If he fell, obviously the Horde was losing. Manufactured conflict is manufactured and irksome!

    Also, I get Jaina is still salty about Theramore (at least in game) but she is a very intelligent person. She knows she'd be of use on the Broken Isles AND knows the current Horde didn't approve of the bombing. If we lose on the Broken Isles, that doesn't teach the Horde a lesson. It doesn't teach anyone anything because we'll all be dead! She's too smart not to see that and at least be here in some capacity.

    These things shouldn't bug me as much as they do lol
    imho the initial broken shore scenario was really poorly written in a way that made both Horde and Alliance look dumb, charging straight on broken shore, losing both fleets, losing both the king and the warchief and losing ton of important character tirion being the cherry on the shitty cake.

    The Horde should have moved to stormheilm invaded it and support Odyir while slowly moving into highmountain to help the taurens, while the alliance should have attacked Azhuna and then moved to Val'shara to support the nelfs there then both attack Suramar with the support of Dalaran (and saved me a great deal of masquerade shit).
    Once done with the nighthold then attacking BS at full force with a strong invasion supported by strong logistic lines like we have done in 7.2 and handed the demons their arse.
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Obviously this issue doesn't affect me however unlike some raiders I don't see the point in taking satisfaction in this injustice, it's wrong, just because it doesn't hurt me doesn't stop it being wrong, the player base should stand together when Blizzard do stupid shit like this not laugh at the ones being victimised.

  13. #33
    You have to understand, both factions went to the Broken Shore as an all or nothing tactic. It was agreed upon that attacking the Tomb of Sargeras was most likely going to be a one way trip, and that the sum of their lives was worth closing the portal and stopping the invasion.

    But when it came down to it, Sylvanas and the Horde weren't willing to give everything and Varian and the Alliance was. There's nothing wrong with that, per say, but the Alliance does have legitimate grievances. I'm a die hard Alliance guy, played them for ten years and regret none of it. I understand why the Horde retreated, but I do not agree with it.

    The Alliance went in under the impression that both factions were willing to sacrifice everything in order to stop the Legion. The Horde went in with the intent of stopping the Legion, but not following through if it meant the Horde itself was in danger of collapsing; hence Vol'jin's "Save the Horde" thing after being impaled. Had the Alliance known the Horde had reservations, perhaps things would be different.

    So, yeah, the Horde abandoned the Alliance. They were totally justified in doing so, but the Alliance has an issue with that, which is also justified. The real enemy in this war against the Legion is misinformation and miscommunication. The dreadlords are wreaking havoc on our intelligence networks, as seen in the rogue campaign. So long as they have infiltrated our factions, things like this will happen. Some think this is poor writing, but I quite like the conflict; because it isn't black and white, it feels organic and real.

  14. #34
    Over 9000! Gimlix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kasuke06 View Post
    Seriously, would it have been that hard to shout a "Oi Wrynn! Vol'jin's down, PULL BACK!" instead of just walking away?
    Mate, how good you think their ears are..?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shekora View Post
    Goddamn it, Gimlix, why do you keep making these threads?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam the Wiser View Post
    Goddamn it, Gimlix, why do you keep making these threads?

  15. #35
    A. You abandoned the Alliance. Get over it.

    B. Your slogan is "Victory or Death" not "Victory or Run Away."

    C. Sylvanas had plenty of Val'kyr to send one to tell the Alliance they had to retreat. If she could risk them to pull leaders off the battlefield ripe with demons, one of them could've went to one of the Alliance.

  16. #36
    Lazy storytelling to keep the war between factions go on.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by kasuke06 View Post
    Someone, pen a letter: "Hey Anduin, Sorry about your dad, Vol'jin got hit and our lines broke, we thought he would understand the retreat horn. Our bad." maybe some flowers.
    More along the lines of:

    "Hey Anduin, we kept so many demons off the Ally's asses that not even Vol'jin, Sylvanus, Baine, AND the Green Jesus Thrall could hold them back. We sounded the retreat with enough time for the Alliance to GTFO. Besides, you guys had air-support for evac and battlefield awareness, so you shoulda been fine. Sorry about your dad. Git gud next battle?"

  18. #38
    Bloodsail Admiral Chemii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whynotchris View Post
    I'm just a bit annoyed that in the game story, the Alliance still believes the Horde left them to die on the Broken Front. Aside from just telling them, Vol'Jin is dead. They have to know that, right?! If he fell, obviously the Horde was losing. Manufactured conflict is manufactured and irksome!

    Also, I get Jaina is still salty about Theramore (at least in game) but she is a very intelligent person. She knows she'd be of use on the Broken Isles AND knows the current Horde didn't approve of the bombing. If we lose on the Broken Isles, that doesn't teach the Horde a lesson. It doesn't teach anyone anything because we'll all be dead! She's too smart not to see that and at least be here in some capacity.

    These things shouldn't bug me as much as they do lol
    Play the rogue campaign. The rogue story is actually one of the better ones in the expansion. The broken shore was a setup. Alternatively:


  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Players know this. At least anyone who pays attention.

    The Alliance characters do not. And nobody from the Horde has bothered to even send a letter explaining it. People arguing that the Horde has betrayed the Alliance are almost always arguing it from the Alliance's perspective.
    We share a floating city with the other faction... There is no way that they wouldn't find out the whole story.

    What makes it worse is both factions are undertaking the same missions, but without colluding with the other faction.

    The only place that should have any tension is Stormheim, but that's because Genn is on his own personal crusade, Nathanos is on his own little crusade against Genn, Sylvannas is off pissing the God's off because why not, and both factions are trying to get the Aegis, while neither helps each other.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by whynotchris View Post
    I'm just a bit annoyed that in the game story, the Alliance still believes the Horde left them to die on the Broken Front. Aside from just telling them, Vol'Jin is dead. They have to know that, right?! If he fell, obviously the Horde was losing. Manufactured conflict is manufactured and irksome!
    Why would the Horde lose just cause Vol'jin died? Like Vol'jin is the most competent and capable fighter they have? Is he good at shouting orders? Did the Horde really need him to win? I doubt it.

    And yes, the Horde did abandon them. Whether it was a decision that made sense or not, that's debatable. It's certainly understandable that Sylvanas retreated. But you can't run away and then say you didn't abandon someone. That's non-sensical. At least say, yeah we abandoned you, our lives are more important to us than yours. At least that would be honest. Now don't play ignorant when the Alliance continues to not like you, because of the things you do.

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