The Horde didn't abandon you!

[SirCowdog]

My god, you are so stupid its hurting my head, THE.WHOLE.PLAN.WAS.DOOMED.TO.FAIL.BECAUSE.IT.WAS.A.TRAP, nothing was going to work because we needed the pillars to close the portal, no one knew this of course, and had we continue with the original plan everyone would have died and the legion would have won, Sylvanas sounding the retreat had the unexpected effect of saving everyone ( wich if you ever care about the lore, its something that the SI:7 came to know later, once they found out that the whole shit was a trap to kill all the leaders )

Edit: Sylvanas its a fucking strategist, the moment shit started to go south she took the most obvious decision, retreat and make another plan, what do you think would have happened when arthas invaded silvermoon and she would have taken a "victory or death" aproach? yes, she still died, but every time she retreated she came back with a new plan to try and stop arthas, thats what a good strategist do, not rush into battle with just foot soldiers and 0 ranged troops

Not to mention that she had a direct order from her Warchief. Even before Sylvanus gave the order, Vol'jin also recognized that things were going to shit.

- - - Updated - - -

The airship was called in quite late in the battle and didn't arrive until after the Horde had gone.

Are you kidding me? Why do people try so hard to defend this idiotic story?

Varian commanded Mekkatorque to call in the gunship BEFORE the horde retreated. Which means the airship was on station near the battle. Close enough to see green flares in the middle of a battlefield filled with green crap. Which means it was also close enough to survey the rest of the battlefield.

Give it up already. The entire situation was stupidly presented, and full of cheap contrivances. I'm not even defending the horde's actions. I'm just saying the entire scene was written poorly.

[Amorac]

Are you kidding me? Why do people try so hard to defend this idiotic story?

Kinda ironic, this thread explains why the Horde/Alliance hate each other just by the posts trying to explain how dumb that hate is.

[DarthMonk79]

Except that's exactly what it did. /facepalm Go check right around the 0:54 second mark. It was close enough to see green flares(another stupid plot hole considering how EVERYTHING on the island is green fell gunk) fired by Mekkatorque. And the air is clear enough for it to be able to shoot down individual felbats. It even comes in at a perfect angle to see over the ridge that Sylvanus abandoned.

Tell me again how they missed what was going on?!




Hello? Spyglasses? Hunter farsight? Unless you want me to believe that they were keen enough to see the green on green flare, but not the rest of the battlefield? Come off it already.

Yeah.. I've watched it plenty of times. They didn't start firing until they came in at the last moment. There's no way in hell that one air ship is going to stay in constant range of enemy aerial attack when it is the last ditch rescue option. By the time they signaled the flare and the ship got there, the Horde was already gone. He tells Genn to get troopers to tell Sylvannas to help clear the skies for the gunship when the horn sounds. Also they came in right up the path you walk with Anduin to see where his father fell. They were looking for the flare's and probably picking off anything that came too close to them. Not watching the horde side of the battlelines. Sure it looked over-run by the time the ship got there but that's with no Horde there to defend the spot so of course it would be over run. I mean think of it... the Alliance is there with Varian, Genn and Mekka, then a bunch of regular troopers. The Horde has Sylvie, Green Jesus, Vol'jin, Baine, Val'kyre there amongst their troops and couldn't hold it. If anything that is the bad writing, they had all their best/powerful fighters there and failed. Where the Alliance had a few warriors, were facing Legion Commander's and Gul'dan and lasted longer. Also from the video I sure as hell didn't see in hunters or shaman's on the ship for Hunter's farsight or shaman's far sight ability. I saw foot soldiers.

[Cosmic Janitor]

The faction conflict is just asinine at this point and has been post vanilla and especially now post cata.

- - - Updated - - -

If anything that is the bad writing, they had all their best/powerful fighters there and failed. Where the Alliance had a few warriors, were facing Legion Commander's and Gul'dan and lasted longer. Also from the video I sure as hell didn't see in hunters or shaman's on the ship for Hunter's farsight or shaman's far sight ability. I saw foot soldiers.

It is, especially since all the named big bad super demons spawned below near the alliance, where the horde just failed to trash mobs for the most part.

[Deleted]

Isn't it strange that the only characters that insist that the Horde abandoned the Alliance on the Broken Shore are those with a deep-rooted hatred for the Horde?

I have no deep hatred for the Horde. Couldn't care less really. But the cinematic and the build-up shows it well. It was that one crucial moment where everything hung in the balance and sacrifices had to be made. It was that moment where the lions show themselves and the jackals disappear. That moment where realizing that dying for a greater would mean our death, but would save countless others.

It was -the- moment to stop the invasion nipped at the bud. And the Horde left. Worse. Not a strategic retreat, but abandoned their allies to be overwhelmed and killed.

In a narrow strategic manner it was good policy, albeit a treacherous one. That enemy-turned-ally would be an enemy again once the current threat was finished. Doing what they did meant that the Alliance would either be weakened or crushed.

On the larger scale of things if was killing off half the army against an enemy that required both sides to contain.

But it's okay. After having ran, after having betrayed, the Alliance will still have to join in with the Horde because the Legion is still an enemy that cannot be tackled alone.

I'm not particularly buff in lore, but I am reminded of the siege of Gilneas.

'Sylvanas, do not use the plague'
'Yes massah'
'So, we're not using the plague?'
'Of COURSE we are using the plague!'

And then the Wrathgate cinematic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch4rc5W4dKY) where the Horde -again- fucks up.

[SirCowdog]

Kinda ironic, this thread explains why the Horde/Alliance hate each other just by the posts trying to explain how dumb that hate is.

Well...it's a slightly different type of hate. It's people hating anyone who pokes holes in Blizzard's weak presentation. It's people hating to be wrong. And probably a little bit of hating the horde and Sylvanus in particular.

Good insight tho.

[Accendor]

Also, I get Jaina is still salty about Theramore (at least in game) but she is a very intelligent person. She knows she'd be of use on the Broken Isles AND knows the current Horde didn't approve of the bombing. If we lose on the Broken Isles, that doesn't teach the Horde a lesson. It doesn't teach anyone anything because we'll all be dead! She's too smart not to see that and at least be here in some capacity.

If some organisation destroyed my home city with most of the people I liked or loved getting them all killed in exchange for the rest of the world seems like a fair trade. I am actually wondering that Jaina is not attacking horde forces everywhere just to speed this up.

[Lucetia]

Yep. And Sylvanas even yells out to Varian to stop talking and "get it done!". The Horde are up on the cliff getting their asses handed to them, while the Alliance are wasting time having an unneeded chat with Guldan.

Yeah, exactly. Just think of how differently the battle could've went had they stopped talking and utilized even their air support. Not saying it would've been much better, but who knows perhaps Gul'dan would've fell their (granted we all know it would because Nighthold would serve less purpose) or heck both sides could've retreated sooner and caused less causalities.

[ItachiZaku]

It was payback for the Alliance abandoning Broxigar.

And Jaina had it coming, she was trying to play this fake bullshit neutral role, while Theramore was a strategist launching point. It deserved to get bombed. #TrueHorde

[Restors]

I question if people that hold this view even followed the story. For one, it was a battle, not a war. Neither faction planned to stay there and die. Had that happened, the Legion would have won and conquered their world - no one wanted that. And again, the "Victory of Death" saying was for wars, not battles.

And there's no way we could have "cleaved those demons". The Horde was ambushed. They didn't expect those numbers.

And you sir, disregard the very mentality of the Horde. Wars and battles are alike. Something that has to be won, something you never turn away or run away from. All the things you mentioned are essentially just excuses, "we were ambushed" , "Wasn't suppose to be a full scale war" , "Numbers were to high". Yeah, no. Horde are cowards.

And the expansion would have ended and Horde&Alliance bffs!! Woo!!!!!

Now you see why that didn't work out that way?

Well, at least let something meaningful drag the faction conflicts. This just made the Horde pathetic. No Warchief or orc should've left the shore at that time.

A huge Horde fanboi huh? What kind of "huge Horde fanboi" doesn't know that Loktar Ogar is an Orc battle cry? Do you really think victory or death applies to the Blood Elves, Tauren, Trolls, Undead and lastly the Goblins? I bet you they see things very differently when it comes to battle/war.

Why wasn't the gunship Genn and them escaped on providing air support, or at least watching both sides of the fight? They could have alerted their boys on the ground that the Horde was about to be overrun and it's time to GTFO. Also, wasn't Jaina there as well? How come she couldn't port them all to Dalaran?

Stop blaming the Horde for the Alliances mistakes on the Broken shore.

If you're the Warchief of the Horde, meaning the very chieftain of a uniting orcish clans who accepted other races into the Horde, and a fucking lame as troll takes up the mantle, doesnt give him excuse to flee! Voljin were warchief, he should've stayed! Thrall should've stayed! Baine too!! What sylvanas and the belves does , doesn't concern me. Forsaken has always done things their way. Blood elves... Well they're just lousy in wars.

If the Horde did what they were suppose to do. Kept fighting like they were supposed to do, none of the retreats or anything were needed by the alliance. If Horde could stayed their grounds, we couldve kept pushing that very moment.

[Deleted]

Refusing to see both sides, not understanding what actually happened, and playing the blame game, is exactly why Blizzard did it like they did. It's because of people like yourself. It keeps the faction tension alive.

What actual took place has been stated by me several times in this thread. Seems like I'm better able to interpret things.

I don't give a fig about faction tension. I'm strictly speaking about the cinematic. I play in a PvE server and don't pay much attention to lore. To me Horde are those annoying orange names that tag mobs grey while I'm questing. Trust me when I say I don't even think about hordies or remember that they exist half the time.

What happened is that Sylvanas turned tail at the moment when heroics were needed, and later on was proved to be right because it was a trap. But it was not an informed decision. It was a decision proved correct on hindsight.

We do not see her dispatching a courrier to warn that they were leaving, we don't see her even shouting (and we were shown she managed to shout and be heard during the cinematic) for Varian to retreat because they were leaving. It only when the Alliance goes 'oh, no worries guys, we have the hordies guarding our ba-... Where the fuck are they?!' that they discover half the army has gone leaving them to be pulped.

How you guys manage to place a positive spin on this I don't know.

And at this let us put less of an emphasis on the amorphous nebulous blob that is the Horde as the faction and more on Sylvanas, which seems to be what the thread really is about.

[Lucetia]

We do not see her dispatching a courrier to warn that they were leaving, we don't see her even shouting (and we were shown she managed to shout and be heard during the cinematic) for Varian to retreat because they were leaving. It only when the Alliance goes 'oh, no worries guys, we have the hordies guarding our ba-... Where the fuck are they?!' that they discover half the army has gone leaving them to be pulped.

Rewatched it to make sure before I posted. The alliance cinematic clearly shows that the horn was sounded. As soon as the horn was sounded Varian looks up and just says "No, they wouldn't" and Genn replies with "It was a trap" and then they retreat. So it's clearly shown that the Horde had to retreat because when they show the cliff again you see the entire remaining Legion army standing proud and tall.

So not sure how you got "oh, no worries guys, we have the hordies guarding our ba-... Where the fuck are they?!'" idea from.

For reference for anyone who wants to rewatch it:

Alliance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HerNdsh_H-g
Horde: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE9HVy1vgws

Next question is, when do we get to fight that new type of Fel Reaver (going strictly by its sounds)

[Deathquoi]

I'm just a bit annoyed that in the game story, the Alliance still believes the Horde left them to die on the Broken Front. Aside from just telling them, Vol'Jin is dead. They have to know that, right?! If he fell, obviously the Horde was losing. Manufactured conflict is manufactured and irksome!

Also, I get Jaina is still salty about Theramore (at least in game) but she is a very intelligent person. She knows she'd be of use on the Broken Isles AND knows the current Horde didn't approve of the bombing. If we lose on the Broken Isles, that doesn't teach the Horde a lesson. It doesn't teach anyone anything because we'll all be dead! She's too smart not to see that and at least be here in some capacity.

These things shouldn't bug me as much as they do lol

Manufactured conflict? In World of Warcraft? Perish the thought!

[Cwimge]

Memory tells me the horde has never attempted to communicate the honest and believable truth, Sylvanas does not particularly seem to care for anything beyond her ruined and immediate concerns

[Toppy]

I dont see how this is surprising, that the Alliance is acting stupid, since most plotlines in Legion are based around people being stupid.

Valshara was about Malfurion being stupid
Highmountain was about the Tauren tribes being collectively stupid
Stormheim was Odyn being stupid
Suramar was Elisande being stupid (and a hypocrite)

So many plotlines revolve around the characters being stupid and/or ignorant.

[Lord Pebbleton]

A. You abandoned the Alliance. Get over it.

B. Your slogan is "Victory or Death" not "Victory or Run Away."

C. Sylvanas had plenty of Val'kyr to send one to tell the Alliance they had to retreat. If she could risk them to pull leaders off the battlefield ripe with demons, one of them could've went to one of the Alliance.

This. Also the guy that posted saying horde could just scream at Alliance to run. If there was too much noise around, the stupid undead elf rangers could have made gestures instead of just walking away with a blank face.
You either agree with the other squad to retreat, or you leave by your own. But the latter does mean abandoning the other side in order to save your own ass.

[zezel81]

Live and die by honor..... For the Horde??? They lost my respect when death was knocking the warriors did not give their battle cry and charged into battle. I would have been with them and switched to the horde. No matter if 20 enemies are in front of you kill well and die in battle a true warrior.

[Deleted]

Yes, from the Alliance perspective, they were abandoned. All they saw and heard was the sounding of the retreating horn and pull from the ledge. That is all the Alliance saw.



Nope. They don't know. You have the benefit to seeing the big picture. You have to see it from the Alliance. They don't know what happened up on the ledge. You do, as a player.

I refuse to believe the alliance intelligence network is so bad they don't even know for sure who the current warchief is.

Immediately after the battle? yeah sure I get that they could think they were abandoned, especially if greymane fueled that fire. But now months later? They must have spies, interrogated prisoners, heard rumors or reports from neutral factions to be able to confirm the real course of events.

[MrHappy]

perception vs reality. you KNOW because you've seen. If you didn't see the horde side at all you'd also feel same way

[Myzou]

I refuse to believe the alliance intelligence network is so bad they don't even know for sure who the current warchief is.

Immediately after the battle? yeah sure I get that they could think they were abandoned, especially if greymane fueled that fire. But now months later? They must have spies, interrogated prisoners, heard rumors or reports from neutral factions to be able to confirm the real course of events.

...did you not see the giant ledge separating the Horde from the Alliance's vision? It's not like they could see Vol'jin was wounded, or that the Horde was overrun.

Again, as I said earlier, Sylvanas could've sent one of her Val'kyr to inform the Alliance. She could have done many many things. Instead, the Horde simply abandoned the Alliance.