Subtlety PTR Notes

[telygroar]

i really ddont understand about the symbol change. it no longer give a %damage buff ?

[Deleted]

Yeah, I'm using my own gear and not the mythic nighthold profile (i'm 901 equipped in sub gear). Putting in 2210021 with boots in my gear I get 718k.

its gear dependent, i also need to compare legendarys etc. but want to wait for more changes befor evaluation everything.

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i really ddont understand about the symbol change. it no longer give a %damage buff ?

it becomes an 30 sec cooldown that gives you 3 buffs(30 sec duration) every time you use it those are consumed when you use the related ability the next time(only the related buff not all 3).

[elfporn]

i really ddont understand about the symbol change. it no longer give a %damage buff ?

They baked the 20% dmg buff into the spec, baseline. And reworked the ability into something different.

The only maintenance (de)buff we will need to maintain is nightblade. Which is great, i'm all for fewer maintenance buffs and more DD/burst abilities.

And yea i think i did misconstrue there fuu1, i thought you were more wondering why they were doing those changes and i put up my speculations. Overall i like the additional options they are adding with talents, and they are moving towards a more synergized spec with things like the SoD change.

One of My biggest concerns is that the SoD rework devalues crit - we already have zero synergy with crit; I would much rather have something to increase the stats value instead of decrease it. Something like "Each time you crit, gain 1 energy" or some other synergy in the spec.

[whathump]

its gear dependent, i also need to compare legendarys etc. but want to wait for more changes befor evaluation everything.

Yeah, it's still kinda early on. I was mostly messing around for my own purposes to see how things are looking since I'm assassination MS but I want to switch to subtlety for tomb since ass can get pretty boring after a while. Thought I may as well share what I found.

[Zeernial]

They baked the 20% dmg buff into the spec, baseline. And reworked the ability into something different.

The only maintenance (de)buff we will need to maintain is nightblade. Which is great, i'm all for fewer maintenance buffs and more DD/burst abilities.

And yea i think i did misconstrue there fuu1, i thought you were more wondering why they were doing those changes and i put up my speculations. Overall i like the additional options they are adding with talents, and they are moving towards a more synergized spec with things like the SoD change.

One of My biggest concerns is that the SoD rework devalues crit - we already have zero synergy with crit; I would much rather have something to increase the stats value instead of decrease it. Something like "Each time you crit, gain 1 energy" or some other synergy in the spec.

I believe some of our abilities have higher crit damage modifiers, or will have.
Energy return is nice but bigger numbers is cool too.
I wish it was all of our abilities though.

[Critical92]

I hope they make premedation baseline. It feels so wierd getting only 1 cp with shadowstrike and premed is not really lvl 100 talent worthy when it only buffs shstrike and cheapshot by 1 cp. It should add 1 cp to backstab as well if it needs to be a talent.

[Jaronicity]

Ambush historically gave 2 points did it not? I think to further unblur the line between SS and BS/GB it ought to happen. I doubt they would change it this expansion because that would mean constructing another talent in it's place. Isn't shadowstrike just a glorified stab with one more modifying talent than BS/GB?

I don't think they've done enough to highlight the advantage of using SS over BS other than it hits a bit harder (especially since the teleport is all but gone). Maybe they don't need to at all, I just think something to separate the two might be nice. Even the new SoD gives the same bonus to SS and BS. I'd like crits from either ability to play into the spec somehow. Stacks to reduce energy cost or no CPs used on finisher or whatever.

Just spitballin'. Hopefully next build there are actual changes to discuss. Feels like the community is getting a bit of cabin fever .

[Critical92]

Ambush gave 2 cp in the past and does for outlaw. I think blizz has many options for a new lvl 100 talent because we have a lot of abilitys which existed in the past and could be reintroduced. The lvl 100 row is good for that because we already have 2 strong talents with MfD and DfA there.

Without premed shd feels so wierd. I think a few builds will cast more BS than ShStrike, because they try to squeeze as much finishers into shd as possible (thanks 30% dmg talent only in dance). Or every build will take premed because there is no other choice for an reliable ST spec. DFA can and will be an option for m+ because we use shstorm there a lot and MfD has its uses while solo questing, but premed is what makes shd what it is on life. Just test the life version without premed in an ST scenario and i tell you it feels and plays like garbage.

[Mafic]

All around good changes for Sub in this build.

But what still bothers me I think is how Backstab and Gloomblade are simply filler and not interactive in anyway with Sub's play style.

[zaino]

yeah overall good steps in the right direction imho

[shoegazing]

All around good changes for Sub in this build.

But what still bothers me I think is how Backstab and Gloomblade are simply filler and not interactive in anyway with Sub's play style.

We used to have a lot of things to do outside of Dance such as maintaining rupture and snd, planning ahead for the next FW window (is it coming from Dance? Vanish? Off of a restealth?), using our CCs, getting a restealth, pooling energy / kiting while pooling energy...

The problem is that the entire spec in Legion was redesigned around Shadow Dance being the rotation and they disincentivized or outright pruned many of the things you would do between Dances.

This was clearly a miscalculation on Blizzard's part and they are backtracking to try to appease the long time Subtlety mains (as opposed to the people that just rerolled to the spec in Legion) who were perfectly happy with how things were for years before and don't enjoy the new playstyle.

The new 7.2.5 Subtlety spec is definitely an improvement for PvP (having actual burst windows is nice, and reducing the spammable teleports and stuns is a very healthy and necessary change), but it's still not the masterpiece that Subtlety was before Legion happened.

The justification they originally provided for pruning so many of our abilities was "you're going to have the ability to teleport around constantly and spam stuns constantly! it would be too OP if we let you keep all that other stuff!" so either we're going to get that stuff back eventually or we're going to find out that Blizzard was lying and the real justification for the prune was what we suspected all along -- simplifying the class to make it more accessible to a newer player who just purchased a character boost.

[funny isn't it how "button bloat" faded away as a justification after it was thoroughly rejected as a reason for pruning by the community in WoD, only to be replaced by vague "class fantasy" as the reason for making the same sorts of changes]

[ZerFunk]

We used to have a lot of things to do outside of Dance such as maintaining rupture and snd, planning ahead for the next FW window (is it coming from Dance? Vanish? Off of a restealth?), using our CCs, getting a restealth, pooling energy / kiting while pooling energy...

The problem is that the entire spec in Legion was redesigned around Shadow Dance being the rotation and they disincentivized or outright pruned many of the things you would do between Dances.

This was clearly a miscalculation on Blizzard's part and they are backtracking to try to appease the long time Subtlety mains (as opposed to the people that just rerolled to the spec in Legion) who were perfectly happy with how things were for years before and don't enjoy the new playstyle.

The new 7.2.5 Subtlety spec is definitely an improvement for PvP (having actual burst windows is nice, and reducing the spammable teleports and stuns is a very healthy and necessary change), but it's still not the masterpiece that Subtlety was before Legion happened.

The justification they originally provided for pruning so many of our abilities was "you're going to have the ability to teleport around constantly and spam stuns constantly! it would be too OP if we let you keep all that other stuff!" so either we're going to get that stuff back eventually or we're going to find out that Blizzard was lying and the real justification for the prune was what we suspected all along -- simplifying the class to make it more accessible to a newer player who just purchased a character boost.

[funny isn't it how "button bloat" faded away as a justification after it was thoroughly rejected as a reason for pruning by the community in WoD, only to be replaced by vague "class fantasy" as the reason for making the same sorts of changes]

So, you wrote all of this, the only readable part is: "The new 7.2.5 Subtlety spec is definitely an improvement for PvP"... ok..

Can you please TRY to look forward? we all know how the spec USED to work, we all know about prunning, we all know about how the rotation used to go

[shoegazing]

So, you wrote all of this, the only readable part is: "The new 7.2.5 Subtlety spec is definitely an improvement for PvP"... ok..

Can you please TRY to look forward? we all know how the spec USED to work, we all know about prunning, we all know about how the rotation used to go

And what is there to look forward to?

I'm excited that we're getting actual burst windows back and eliminating some of the cancerous mechanics (spammable Shadowstrike teleport) that I've been telling the devs would be problematic since day 1 of alpha

I acknowledged that it is an improvement, and that there still will be more work to do when it comes to making Sub into a fantastic and exciting spec for PvP once again

So... what is your problem exactly with what I wrote?

[ZerFunk]

And what is there to look forward to?

I'm excited that we're getting actual burst windows back and eliminating some of the cancerous mechanics (spammable Shadowstrike teleport) that I've been telling the devs would be problematic since day 1 of alpha

I acknowledged that it is an improvement, and that there still will be more work to do when it comes to making Sub into a fantastic and exciting spec for PvP once again

So... what is your problem exactly with what I wrote?

..that you write it every day in every rogue post

[mcrx]

I hope they make premedation baseline. It feels so wierd getting only 1 cp with shadowstrike and premed is not really lvl 100 talent worthy when it only buffs shstrike and cheapshot by 1 cp. It should add 1 cp to backstab as well if it needs to be a talent.

well ur wish has come true. lol

[Todesbote]

..that you write it every day in every rogue post

I think I have a solution for your problem. I tried it myself and I'm happy with the results so far:



You're welcome!

[Mafic]

We used to have a lot of things to do outside of Dance such as maintaining rupture and snd, planning ahead for the next FW window (is it coming from Dance? Vanish? Off of a restealth?), using our CCs, getting a restealth, pooling energy / kiting while pooling energy...

The problem is that the entire spec in Legion was redesigned around Shadow Dance being the rotation and they disincentivized or outright pruned many of the things you would do between Dances.

This was clearly a miscalculation on Blizzard's part and they are backtracking to try to appease the long time Subtlety mains (as opposed to the people that just rerolled to the spec in Legion) who were perfectly happy with how things were for years before and don't enjoy the new playstyle.

The new 7.2.5 Subtlety spec is definitely an improvement for PvP (having actual burst windows is nice, and reducing the spammable teleports and stuns is a very healthy and necessary change), but it's still not the masterpiece that Subtlety was before Legion happened.

The justification they originally provided for pruning so many of our abilities was "you're going to have the ability to teleport around constantly and spam stuns constantly! it would be too OP if we let you keep all that other stuff!" so either we're going to get that stuff back eventually or we're going to find out that Blizzard was lying and the real justification for the prune was what we suspected all along -- simplifying the class to make it more accessible to a newer player who just purchased a character boost.

[funny isn't it how "button bloat" faded away as a justification after it was thoroughly rejected as a reason for pruning by the community in WoD, only to be replaced by vague "class fantasy" as the reason for making the same sorts of changes]

Yeah they are half way there but now they need to follow through with unpruning Sub and the other two specs. It is obvious that they can do more with Backstab and Gloomblade to be a central part of Sub's gameplay because in the past Hemo was the filler. It doesn't feel good right now that Backstab is filler, so there is room for improvement.

[Hobbes0773]

Yeah they are half way there but now they need to follow through with unpruning Sub and the other two specs. It is obvious that they can do more with Backstab and Gloomblade to be a central part of Sub's gameplay because in the past Hemo was the filler. It doesn't feel good right now that Backstab is filler, so there is room for improvement.

It could be given the hemo treatment, where Gloomblade applies some sort of debuff, and backstabs give a chance to proc a free gloomblade? GB would be made baseline, or just create a new ability.

[Mafic]

It could be given the hemo treatment, where Gloomblade applies some sort of debuff, and backstabs give a chance to proc a free gloomblade? GB would be made baseline, or just create a new ability.

That sounds like a good starting point. Right now they are stuck on Gloomblade by damage tuning it up and down and they fail to realize that on live and even what is on the PTR you have little interest in using Gloomblade.

[Hobbes0773]

That sounds like a good starting point. Right now they are stuck on Gloomblade by damage tuning it up and down and they fail to realize that on live and even what is on the PTR you have little interest in using Gloomblade.

Right now gloomblade is meant as a newbie talent, not a serious option for raiders. No matter how they tune it, it is either better or worse than backstab and therefore not really a viable option since it doesn't affect gameplay. It is a talent designed to streamline gameplay, not add.

That said, I think another ability that acts as a proc ability that lowers the CD of dance would be nice. That way when you can't dance, you are actively trying to get the CD back in a way that isn't entirely predictable. I know RNG isn't amazing, but this kind I don't mind. I'd trade this for random proccing CPs any day.