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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Him of Many Faces View Post
    I refuse to believe the alliance intelligence network is so bad they don't even know for sure who the current warchief is.
    I was referring to the Alliance had no idea of what happened on the battlefield. Not that Vol Jin was mortally wounded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Him of Many Faces View Post
    Immediately after the battle? yeah sure I get that they could think they were abandoned, especially if greymane fueled that fire. But now months later? They must have spies, interrogated prisoners, heard rumors or reports from neutral factions to be able to confirm the real course of events.
    Sure. They have prisoners, even spies telling what happened on the battlefield. We know that. They retreated. What they would not know is why the retreat was given. Slyvannas ordered the retreat. That is know. Why? We as the player know. The characters in game may not.

  2. #122
    Legendary! Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Him of Many Faces View Post
    I meant, the alliance military commander on the airship could have seen the horde was being overrun. The only way he couldn't see that is if he also couldn't see the alliance forces. (and since you guys like cinematics so much, the sky at the end of the cinematic is very clear, not filled with fog/explosions/air units at all)

    Also in what way to you realistically think they could have sent a warning other then standard military battlefield communications like horns and flags/banners?
    There's a difference in just leaving and at least trying. Let's assume the gunship saw the horde leaving; let's also assume they even noticed they were fleeing because they were getting overrun. That's still not a justification, because if you retreat without a word leaving your partner in war to take the full brunt of the attack, no matter your reasonings, the other side will hate you, and for good reason.
    The gunship could do one of the following: shoot down the val'kyrs after seeing them retreat without the alliance, or speed up and rescue Varian and the others. Assuming the forsaken rangers couldn't communicate through voice, the gunship too couldn't have warned the alliance to retreat using some audio devices.

    Still, my point stands about the rangers leaving with a blank expression. Even waving their arms, pointing at the legion and waving "no" with a finger, pointing at the other direction and pretending to run on the spot... Nothing of sort. Both kings saw them leave. If those archers cared about the fate of alliance on that day, a simple desperate emote would have conveyed way more than what was attempted (or rather, not attempted).
    If an ally doesn't care about you and leaves you mid fight to save himself, you have all the rights to beat the crap out of him if you survive said battle, because that's not an ally you'd want to side with again.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Him of Many Faces View Post
    Do you agree the pillars of creation are required to seal the tomb? If yes then the battle was lost before it even began. Then it's really just a coin flip about which faction had to retreat first.
    Even if they weren't, it was doomed from the start because it was a trap with the Legion feeding bad intel because Shaw got body swapped with a Dreadlord. One of the smartest things I've seen the Legion do all expansion tbh.

    Also, it's not like the Horde and Alliance are getting chummy on the Broken Shore and shacking up at the same places(ignore the floating city okay?). Why would the fog of war not be in effect?

    Anduin at the very least until 7.2 was all the way back in Stormwind.
    Genn is on site but is too busy trying to settle his personal vendetta to give a shit about the cosmic threat coming through the fel portals.
    Sylvanas is skulking about in the shadows doing who knows what after Stormheim.
    Velen...idk really? Chilling on the Broken Shore having a cry about his son.

    All the other leaders are doing fuck all. Defending the homeland from Legion invasions that happen off camera?

    Blame Khadgar/Kirin Tor(and Blizzard) for not warping everyones salty ass to the Purple Parlor and putting this shit to rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    because if you retreat without a word leaving your partner in war to take the full brunt of the attack, no matter your reasonings, the other side will hate you, and for good reason.
    Fair, but isn't that what the horn is about? "Hey we're outta here." They're in the middle of a battle. What are they going to do? Fire up the magic walkie talkies and let the Alliance know Vol'jin got a surprise injection of felsteel?
    Last edited by cfStatic; 2017-05-18 at 04:16 PM.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Him of Many Faces View Post
    Do you agree the pillars of creation are required to seal the tomb? If yes then the battle was lost before it even began. Then it's really just a coin flip about which faction had to retreat first.
    If the Horde knew the Pillars were needed then something should have been said before the battle, if not then it can't be used as an excuse for abandoning the Alliance. Even if there was nothing the expedition could do to set back or contain the Legion at the Tomb there's still a massive difference between a controlled retreat with both factions supporting the withdrawal, and the way the Horde turned tail and simply left the Alliance on their own.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    If the Horde knew the Pillars were needed then something should have been said before the battle, if not then it can't be used as an excuse for abandoning the Alliance. Even if there was nothing the expedition could do to set back or contain the Legion at the Tomb there's still a massive difference between a controlled retreat with both factions supporting the withdrawal, and the way the Horde turned tail and simply left the Alliance on their own.
    He's not saying the Horde knew you'd need the Pillars. He's saying without them it's inevitably a losing outcome. No one is using it as an excuse for what happened.

    Nor does there need to be an excuse. The Horde was overrun, sounded the retreat, and the Alliance immediately understood what was happening. If Varian hadn't decided to sacrifice himself like an idiot, this conversation would never happen. And yes, it was idiotic for Varian to do so. Have you ever wondered why we didn't let Obama lead Seal Team Six into bin Laden's compound? It's because he has more use as a political figurehead and symbol than he would as a combatant. By becoming a martyr, he placed an unprepared teenager in charge of his kingdom (and apparently the entire Alliance, because god forbid anyone but a human should lead, despite Velen having 25,000+ years of knowledge and 10,000 years of dealing with this very threat). And what's the very first thing that happens after this noble sacrifice? Jaina storms off, Genn declares a renewed vendetta, and the other faction leaders just shrug and go back to doing whatever while Khadgar bumbles his way through making terrible dad jokes and giving up on the Broken Shore (see: his voice lines in CoeN).
    Did you think we had forgotten? Did you think we had forgiven? Behold, now, the terrible vengeance of the Forsaken!

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    And what exactly would the gunship guys see? Vol'jin getting stabbed, Sylvanas calling for aerial retreat, and the rangers on the cliff just leaving at the sound of the horn without even trying to warn the Alliance, with Varian and Genn looking at the rangers disappearing?
    Except even Genn and Varian heard the horn being sounded and that's when they saw they were retreating. Are you saying that they couldn't put 2 and 2 together saying "We heard the horn go off and they are retreating. Let's stick around and see if we can win by ourselves"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    What green flares, do you mean the one Mekkatork let off once the gunship arrived, after be called it in with some doohickey? Where do you consider to be "on station" as it seems far more likely the gunship was kept out of range of the battle to prevent it meeting the same rate as Varian's ship? Don't you think if it was in a position where it could leisurely view the battle it would have done a bit of shooting?
    The gunship shown in the cinematic was within seconds of the battlefield so it would have been stationed pretty darn close (you can even see the Horde ship pretty close too (which is odd considering in-game wise, the nearest water is a good distance away from where we fought).

    Though even Mekkatorque tells Varian that he was way ahead of him and had the ship on it's way and just needed to transmit final coordinates.

    Also, what do you mean "same fate as Varian's"? As far as I know that was the ship Varian attempted to board and started going down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Watch the intro cinematic for Legion, pay particular attention to what happens to Varian's ship to see why it doesn't make sense to have an airship chilling in a position where it could see what's going on over the cliffs.
    Except the Legion cinematic technically takes place after the events of The Broken Shore and is a perspective of Varian's in his letter to Anduin and because of how it's written we can't assume that's what happened in reality. It would be like hearing the same story from everyone's perspective where you would have varying differences. Even the cinematic only shows both sides bringing in one airship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    Watch the cinematic again.
    Varian/Genn/Mekkatorque fight, horn blares, rangers leave, Legion starts coming from the ledge itself.
    The alliance side weren't overrun before the horde left. In fact, the ship came shortly after. Of course your defenses are going to get crushed if half of your army just disappears. Horde just left without any warning, and that's cowardice. As I said, at least trying to warn Varian that they were getting overrun on the ledge would have been somewhat better instead of turning and running.
    Obviously you've seen the cinematic since you described it. How does them sounding the horn while Varian and Genn both watch them turn and get away from the battle not signify that they were retreating? Do you think both thought they blew a horn for the fun of it?

    Quote Originally Posted by DFTR View Post
    Perhaps Sylvanas should not have blown the retreat, and let the horde forces there die to hold that point. Perhaps it would've bought time for the Alliance troops to kill Gul'dan, thus ending the Legion threat this time around.

    Maybe that's why Genn's salty.
    Because the half hour dialogue they had with Gul'dan was enough time to close the deal to start with. While they were idly chit chatting the horde is fending off waves of demons to where even Sylvannas has to yell for them to hurry up.

    You would think both sides know how endless the Legion can be, so why spend time chit chatting while your defense on the cliff is dealing with demons? Only to complain later when they have to retreat sooner than expected because their forces are dwindling because you wanted to have a fireside chat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cannibalus View Post
    THIS is exactly what i was thinking... srsly i don't understand why they couldn't yell or send a courier OR even sacrificing a few horde berserkers just to hold the ridge until the retreat message goes out... so many cool ways to do it. Lore is getting retarded with each expansion. Just like Illidan couldn't send word back in BC when we attacked Black Temple to just say "stop it you morons, we're all fighting the Legion".
    Except they did, in the form of the horn blowing. Both Varian and Genn heard it and saw them retreating. Unless you are saying both are so dumb as to figure out that was their horn and they were retreating....

    Quote Originally Posted by Him of Many Faces View Post
    Do you agree the pillars of creation are required to seal the tomb? If yes then the battle was lost before it even began. Then it's really just a coin flip about which faction had to retreat first.
    I'm pretty sure both factions knew going in was a death wish to start with and the only reason they even went in was because the writers wanted to give us a "reason" for why we were doing all this so they came up with this whole scenario.

    I can't remember if it was in all the class halls (Usually only read quests on my paladin main), but there was a mention about the whole thing with the injured soldier prior to 7.2. It was along the lines of we need to save our men, but this time let's actually send in troops to survey the area before we actually go in. Which sounds like they all recognize how poorly planned that whole event was and even going in just because Gul'dan was there was dumb.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimson View Post
    He's not saying the Horde knew you'd need the Pillars. He's saying without them it's inevitably a losing outcome. No one is using it as an excuse for what happened.
    Then why bring them up in a thread trying to justify the Horde's actions?

    Nor does there need to be an excuse. The Horde was overrun, sounded the retreat, and the Alliance immediately understood what was happening. If Varian hadn't decided to sacrifice himself like an idiot, this conversation would never happen. And yes, it was idiotic for Varian to do so. Have you ever wondered why we didn't let Obama lead Seal Team Six into bin Laden's compound? It's because he has more use as a political figurehead and symbol than he would as a combatant. By becoming a martyr, he placed an unprepared teenager in charge of his kingdom (and apparently the entire Alliance, because god forbid anyone but a human should lead, despite Velen having 25,000+ years of knowledge and 10,000 years of dealing with this very threat). And what's the very first thing that happens after this noble sacrifice? Jaina storms off, Genn declares a renewed vendetta, and the other faction leaders just shrug and go back to doing whatever while Khadgar bumbles his way through making terrible dad jokes and giving up on the Broken Shore (see: his voice lines in CoeN).
    Yeah, when the Alliance commanders heard the horn and saw the Forsaken abandoning the ridge they knew the Horde was abandoning them, I wasn't disputing that. I was disputing the OP's claim that the Alliance wasn't being abandoned or that there was nothing else the Horde could do when they clearly left the Alliance forces in the shit to save their own hides.

    Also I really need to point out that a US style democracy is very different to a mediaeval style monarchy, and covert ops are different to a pitched battle.

    As a warrior king Wrynn is among the best trained, best equipped and most experienced warriors in the Alliance. He is also an asset with regards to the morale of his troops who would rather follow their supreme commander than be sent to die whilst he stays at home. Leading in battle is also politically necessary, a hereditary monarch must take on responsibilities to match the privileges they inherit.

  8. #128
    Pretty sure the same quest dialogue was in every order hall, the only difference was what the questgiver was called.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Also I really need to point out that a US style democracy is very different to a mediaeval style monarchy, and covert ops are different to a pitched battle.

    As a warrior king Wrynn is among the best trained, best equipped and most experienced warriors in the Alliance. He is also an asset with regards to the morale of his troops who would rather follow their supreme commander than be sent to die whilst he stays at home. Leading in battle is also politically necessary, a hereditary monarch must take on responsibilities to match the privileges they inherit.
    I didn't say he should sit on the throne while his troops fight. I agree it's entirely possible and very beneficial for a noble to be present on a battlefield. I said throwing himself to his certain death was stupid, because it eliminated (in your words) one of the best trained, best equipped, and most experienced warriors within the Alliance faction, and to what end?
    Last edited by Jimson; 2017-05-18 at 06:22 PM.
    Did you think we had forgotten? Did you think we had forgiven? Behold, now, the terrible vengeance of the Forsaken!

  9. #129
    Pretty much this: Quoted for truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derah View Post
    Lets talk about how the horde had to fight off FAR MORE than the alliance did (Ground troops, aerial troops, and fucking spaceships) and yet we held the line and even managed to evacuate everyone without the need of one of us having to sacrifice himself for the rest. Meanwhile, a fucking alliance gunship with enough artillery on both sides to flatten a city, can't get a fel reaver to release its grip on it, despite having nearly a dozen cannons trained on him. AT POINTBLANK RANGE.

    Lets talk about how the horde refused to retreat until most of our army was wiped out by the orbital bombardment by the legion spaceships, and 3 out of 4 of our leaders were down, one of them fatally injured. While the alliance was perfectly okay, all four of their leaders were fine, most of their army was intact, yet the minute, THE SECOND, that things began to look bad, they didn't hold the line, they ran away immediately.

    Lets talk about how the plan was that the horde would buy the alliance time to do its part of the job on that cliff, and the alliance had to charge through and finish the legion down there, yet even though the horde did its part of the job (We bought you the time you needed) Varian wasted this precious time making fancy speeches instead of shutting up and getting the job done (Sylvanas had to at one point scold Varian with the perfect "Less chatting Wrynn, KILL HIM ALREADY!!!").

    Lets talk about how despite not having to deal with even half the shit the horde was facing up on that cliff, your side was still completely incapable of reaching gul'dan and end all of this, even though, as mentioned above, all four of your leads were perfectly okay, you only had ground troops to deal with, you had air support and we didn't, and one of your leaders was piloting a fucking battlemech. What, was it too hard to shoot a missile barrage at gul'dan or something?
    And lets not forget that the immediate assumption is that it's all Sylvanus' fault. Even in the cinematic Genn and Varian immediately say "She wouldn't!", even though, for all they know, Vol'jin is still in command(you know...the WARchief).

    On top of that, even if the Horde had fought to the last man, the situation would have been the same. The horde position was already overrun by the time Sylvanus sounded the retreat. The horde could have been completely wiped out and the situation wouldn't have changed. Genn still would have probably still been crying about how the horde should have fought harder.

    The entire situation is nonsense.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2017-05-18 at 06:20 PM.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Genn still would have probably still been crying about how the horde should have fought harder.
    Knowing Genn he would have probably reached the plateau, realized that all the horde was wiped and would have called a retreat

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Vol'Jin ran to save his skin, Varian went back to save his people.
    Th Horde was in a very bad spot, Thrall was at his limit (between fighting and taking 3 legion ship shots head on), Baine's strength was waning from exhaustion because of the constant fighting.

    The Horde was fighting a two then three front battle 1 main portal in front from the air and then from behind as a second portal opened. At that point Sylvanas was the only real offensive force the horde had left after Voljin was fatally wounded and unable to fight and even if she stopped air supporting and fought she too would of been overwhelmed and killed (soon after the Alliance would of been as well) so the only real option for the horde was to retreat and regroup and she made the choice as a strategist. The Horn also was a sign of retreat alerting the alliance of retreat.
    "How you build your character is not a feature of a MMORPG, it is the feature. Everything else is secondary even the gameplay itself is secondary to building your character, its the kind of stuff you think about when you are at work or school and couldnt wait to go home to play WoW or Diablo 2. We have all done it." ~Into, 2016

  12. #132
    Epic! Whitedragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    More along the lines of:

    "Hey Anduin, we kept about the average mob group size that any given tank pulls while questing busy for about two minutes. It was odd, not even Vol'jin, Myself, Baine,the Green Jesus Thrall, a squad of solders, AND a small army of heroes, could hold them back. We sounded the retreat with enough time for the Alliance to look up and notice their support was gone. Besides, you guys had air-support on the way for evac and battlefield awareness when ever it arrived, so you shoulda been fine. Sorry about your dad. We will try to not wipe on trash, and Git gud for the next battle!"
    Fixed for you, no need to thank me.

  13. #133
    Okay, Horde and Alliance dont really talk to each other. Oh wait they DO in the class orders halls!

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitedragon View Post
    Fixed for you, no need to thank me.
    Was unaware that a tank pulls hundreds of mobs including ones in air and on ground at a time while questing, but nice exaggeration to try and prove some unknown point. Though I wish I could get that many mobs to round up at once instead of them chaining back.
    Last edited by Lucetia; 2017-05-18 at 07:59 PM.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitedragon View Post
    Fixed for you, no need to thank me.
    If you want to make ridiculous exaggerations, how about Varian pulling too many mobs by himself without kiting/LoS/CDs?
    Did you think we had forgotten? Did you think we had forgiven? Behold, now, the terrible vengeance of the Forsaken!

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimson View Post
    If you want to make ridiculous exaggerations, how about Varian pulling too many mobs by himself without kiting/LoS/CDs?
    Pfft what warrior doesn't charge away from other mobs or heroic leap.

    Though I guess he didn't do his class hall campaign or he could've just lept to Skyhold while going "LOL" at his teammates as they died

  17. #137
    It's one of these plot points that make 0 sense whatsoever but exist to keep the Horde vs Alliance stupidity alive.

    Seriously, not one of them pauses and asks themselves why the Warchief died? Or was everyone on that airship blind?

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    Pfft what warrior doesn't charge away from other mobs or heroic leap.

    Though I guess he didn't do his class hall campaign or he could've just lept to Skyhold while going "LOL" at his teammates as they died
    He traded that power for the ability to solo Fel Reavers.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    He traded that power for the ability to solo Fel Reavers.
    Guess he should have worried less about ST and gone for the AoE talent, then.
    Did you think we had forgotten? Did you think we had forgiven? Behold, now, the terrible vengeance of the Forsaken!

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    He traded that power for the ability to solo Fel Reavers.
    Well...looks like someone came up on the short end of the stick. Trades escape abilities for Fel Reaver solo'ing. If only Varian had a graveyard where he could just resurrect then it'd be worth it.

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