New 90 talent: Toxic Blade?

[Cyanix]

Unsubstantiated blanket statement ("WoW PvP is a joke") that derails the thread and adds nothing to the discussion.

All because you are salty because one talent got changed to a design that might not be the best for hardcore PvE raiding, though casuals or PvPers might find it to be perfectly exciting or useful? No one is going to be forcing you to spec into Toxic Blade, perhaps you are not the target audience for the talent.

We are salty because our main raiding spec suffers debatable degradations through this change.

If the talent goes live it in the current iteration this is already sim'ed to be a ~100k dps loss in mythic gear.


That's enough to feel annoyed to say the least.

While not exactly great, assassination serves some purpose in raids. The single target DPS is good and rogues can provide sponge/ soaking service when needed.

Outlaw has decent cleave but subpar single target.
Sub is only half assed at both.

That leaves you with one spec (out of three, as a dps class mind you) which currently had some appeal for raiders.
Guess what's going to happen if this spec gets toned down ?

And may i ask who asked for another cooldown-based, ST talent, when the spec was in desperate need of on demand, multi target capabilities ?

[mickybrighteyes]

Seems interesting tho. Still subject to change.
It's been "nerfed" on PTR. Was 1500% AP on initial hit before. Is 600% now.

First thing I saw too... not sure I'd jump to nerf cause with that change to the cooldown it might still see more uptime and thus actually turn into an overall buff. Duration was only dropped by 1 second. Depends on how often they could have had the .5 sec reduction procc.

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

Man, I miss crimson tempest.

Imagine if they brought it back but now it spreads rupture with the press of a button.

what if it just refreshed rupture on all targets it hits, so you still gotta put a little work in. I'd be down

[tawnos42]

Itemization, legendaries and artifact level. Also why do rogues need to get punished for having 3 DPS specs while a Paly or a DH can do everything in one DPS spec ? If you are going to specialize each of the rogues spec in one niche and make they suck in the other areas they have to be the best on theire 1 thing by a mile or they will be at a disadvantage versus almost every other DPS class.

I don't think we 'suffer' from that at all. Outside of a few outliers not every other class is getting to be excellent single target dps along with having solid AE capability. Sure the change and some tuning could end up looking like demon hunters or fury warriors but it also could end up looking like fire mages and unholy dks.

[shoegazing]

We are salty because our main raiding spec suffers debatable degradations through this change.

If the talent goes live it in the current iteration this is already sim'ed to be a ~100k dps loss in mythic gear.

Why are you simming your dps when they haven't even tuned assassination yet LOL

The key part of your post was "if that talent goes live in its current iteration" I'm wondering what do you think the chances of that happening are?

[permp]

Why are you simming your dps when they haven't even tuned assassination yet LOL

The key part of your post was "if that talent goes live in its current iteration" I'm wondering what do you think the chances of that happening are?

are you naive enought to belive that will be tunning on the spec before the patch?

They removed the only talent that keep us in the game and AP wasnt scaling up that good.

[Akachan]

are you naive enought to belive that will be tunning on the spec before the patch?

They removed the only talent that keep us in the game and AP wasnt scaling up that good.

Have to agree with this one. They are notorious for rushing changes out the door and then tuning the numbers later on after the raids have gone live. If you had been paying attention you would know this.

[tawnos42]

Why are you simming your dps when they haven't even tuned assassination yet LOL

The key part of your post was "if that talent goes live in its current iteration" I'm wondering what do you think the chances of that happening are?

Just like with fire mage right? No chance it stays at....uh what its been for the past several months. Oops.

[Coldkil]

Keep the discussion on topic - Toxic Blade. Every further iteration on offtopic stuff like "this is better than that" or "devs care/don't care about X" will be treated as spam.

[Eazy]

That's exactly the point of the question. Classes have strengths and weaknesses for a reason. Some players have been playing one character as their main for 12 years and don't want to see that character be taken in a completely different direction.

Maybe Blizzard needs to do a better job at designing some more content that allows the natural strengths of the Rogue class to shine.

It's not that I don't agree that "Rogues aren't great in M+ and this is a problem" it's just that I see plenty of reason to believe that M+ itself is the problem, not the Rogue class.

Wasn't the original intention of M+ supposed to be a more challenging experience in the tradition of Cata heroics where you had to coordinate and strategize a bit more ("ok let's sap X and trap Y, now LoS pull the caster") instead of just pulling the entire room and AOEing it down while watching Netflix on your 2nd monitor?

Not going to lie - I kinda agree with you. But... Blizzard changed the game. DH are not only better in ST but also AoE fights, which gives them unjustificable advantage over rogues on the almost every level of the game, which is ridiculous. If Assa rogues were the best in ST fights(or at least TOP3), but other classes were worse but better in AoE? Okay, that's fine. But right now we have classes that are better in both(and even in raids and M+).

EDIT(so Coldkil won't think it's a spam!):
So, the consensus is that they should add/fix AoE abilities instead of giving us ST ones, which is Toxic Blade.

[Arsen]

I don't mind another ST ability, honestly. Would have prefered an AoE one, but OK. The problem with Toxic Blade is that it's such a clunky ability. Whenever you cast it it just doesn't seem like the right time. Either you wait for Vendetta\KB or you cast it on cooldown, in both scenarios it feels out of place.

[Geckoo]

I think toxic blade should be something entirely different.

It seems like they are trying to make us choose between a burst talent for poisons, a burst talent for bleeds or the middle ground that is alacrity. But do we really need that? do we really need another CD to micromanage, pool energy and line up with kingsbane, vendetta and/or vanish? Does the spec even need another active ability?

In my opinion whatever that spot ends up being it should be a passive effect that provides some benefit for single target and also makes assassination a bit more competitive in AoE situations. I think something like 'living bomb' with poisons applied by using envenom on a poisoned target would work great.

[Deleted]

We are salty because our main raiding spec suffers debatable degradations through this change.

If the talent goes live it in the current iteration this is already sim'ed to be a ~100k dps loss in mythic gear.


That's enough to feel annoyed to say the least.

While not exactly great, assassination serves some purpose in raids. The single target DPS is good and rogues can provide sponge/ soaking service when needed.

Outlaw has decent cleave but subpar single target.
Sub is only half assed at both.

That leaves you with one spec (out of three, as a dps class mind you) which currently had some appeal for raiders.
Guess what's going to happen if this spec gets toned down ?

And may i ask who asked for another cooldown-based, ST talent, when the spec was in desperate need of on demand, multi target capabilities ?

its important to understand the use of a tool and enviroment.
sub sims show worse output then live version and ppl dont complain about numbers (at least most).

having one spec so tuned that it beats out both others is not a good ecosystem complaining that other specs may be better/equal is just pointless and shows low knowlage of the game/balancing.

i know you and others fear that other specs will become better, but rogue isnt a "one spec" class and shouldnt be.

there is also a general misconception that a slightly lower tuned spec is not compatitive, while in fact if specs are within reasonable damage intervall they are.
Also all specs have their weaknesses and alot of those will remain.

I dont see a reason for anyone to switch spec unless the number tuning is bad what it was not for sin for the entire xpack(not so for others).

also keep in mind that legendarys and ap are not a problem anymore, this means you can probably play/switch spec and play according to the boss(what is rly nice).

cheers

[Hctaz]

Another debuff to keep track of, great.

I mean I don't think it's that bad. You probably pool it for certain moments. I mean it's an 8 second duration with a 25 second cool down... not really too bad.

[Lithix]

Assassin AOE is nothing to be shy about, AOE with DP is pretty great tbh! (with your random bomb ofc! )
Also, The patch will drop 2 weeks before the raid starts, so more hot fixing for specs can happen in the live environment, so things can still change.

[Khas]

My vision of this spell would be: The critical strike chance of your Nature damage abilities against the target is increased by 40% for 8 sec and also increases poison damage by % to secondary targets.

First part gives you a so-so ST boost which is still a subject to change. Other part of that spell would increase poison damage which would be beneficial while you are doing AoE.

[nocturnus]

Assassin AOE is nothing to be shy about, AOE with DP is pretty great tbh!

Are we playing the same game? There's absolutely nothing great about SiN AoE.

[Deleted]

So far I don't think TB is a good replacement for AP but it's still not final so we will see.

I would have been happy if haste affects the dots and we would get a dotspread, something like Pestilence from DK in Wotlk. Because atm rogue playes like old unholy, u put ur dots on the target to max ur ST dmg abilites, esp. with the t19 bonus. This way Sin would get good consistent Aoe dmg, aside the PB burst and I assume Haste scaling would also lead into better ST dot dmg.

[Mafic]

Blizz doesn't see it as an issue if everyone gravitates towards Alacrity (see Outlaw). But it is boring to have talent set ups dictated because they neglect the synergies of talents.

Toxic Blade can be so much better if they iterate on it and improve upon it the next few weeks.

[Cyanix]

are you naive enought to belive that will be tunning on the spec before the patch?

They removed the only talent that keep us in the game and AP wasnt scaling up that good.

This.

After nearly 12 years of "rogueing" , ups and downs, i'm inclined to agree.

They won't tune it until at least some weeks into ToS, which will greatly hurt raiding rogues (low perf= bench, kthx)