Tinkers In Our Future?

[Ielenia]

By your logic,

Not my logic because I'm comparing two things that exist in the same era, while you are comparing two things that were created in different eras.

WoD's orcs transitioned from a tribalistic, semi-nomadic culture to an industrial, mechanized military power in a matter of years. That is, no matter how you slice it, technological progress.

Except nothing of it is the orcs' achievement. They were 'uplifted' by the goblin engineers who created all the designs, schematics and plans, and then taught the orcs how to build them.

Some people think they can't coexist.

They cannot, because, in the lore, they are one and the same: both are characters who focus their efforts on creating and tinkering with machines. I have not yet heard any reasonable argument that explains how the two are different. "One invents, the other follow schematics" is not a valid argument because engineers can 'invent' (i.e. learn how to create things themselves, without the need of someone to teach them).

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When you have stuff like that in the game world, its pretty weird that there's no class to represent it.

They already have a representative: engineers. Not everything in the game needs a 'player class' to represent it. Otherwise, when should we be expecting the 'farmer' class? Or the blacksmith and the tailor classes?

[Rhamses]

They already have a representative: engineers. Not everything in the game needs a 'player class' to represent it. Otherwise, when should we be expecting the 'farmer' class? Or the blacksmith and the tailor classes?

Nah. The profession doesn't properly represent the class fantasy showcased in major NPCs. For example, if you want to fight a dungeon boss inside a mech ala Gelbin Mekkatorque or even Helix Blackfuse, there's no way to do it. Unlike your "combat farmer", the class fantasy of a Gnome or Goblin piloting a mech in combat is showcased throughout the WoW game world and repeatedly in a variety of Warcraft media to boot, so the fact that you can't roll a Goblin or a Gnome and partake in that fantasy is pretty jarring.

[Explorer]

Absolutely, totally not. Better be witch doctors, runemasters or whatever else casters.

[Kiradyn]

Some people think they can't coexist.

I prefer to think that Engineers are hobbyists, assembling neat things based on easily followable designs, while a Tinker builds and uses entirely new machines.

As a real world example, the engineer is the guy working on his car on the weekends, while the tinker is the guy working at Tesla building entirely new cars.

I prefer the example of Tony Stark (Iron Man) versus a common engineer. Stark creates unique and more advanced tech because he is a super genius. Just like Iron Man, the Tinker constructs a custom suit of technologically advanced armor.

Since Goblins and Gnomes are the super geniuses of WoW, it makes sense.

[Ielenia]

Nah. The profession doesn't properly represent the class fantasy showcased in major NPCs. For example, if you want to fight a dungeon boss inside a mech ala Gelbin Mekkatorque or even Helix Blackfuse, there's no way to do it.

Yes. Yes, there is.

[Rhamses]

Yes. Yes, there is.

Yes, let's talk about Reaves Piloted Combat mode;

So. You're an engineer. You got a cave, a box of scraps, and a desire to make your buddy Reaves into your own suit of power armor.
You got a recipe to a module that demands 200 felslate as well as numerous quest items with fairly unimpressive drop chance (Iron Juggernaut had to be killed 8 times in various difficulties over a few weeks).

You scavenge it all and build it. And for your efforts, you are rewarded with Reaves Piloted Combat Mode.

So what is it like to pilot Reaves?

-It has ~1m health. Less than a fresh 110 player. It also does not come with player damage reduction; expect a single attack from anyone to destroy your mighty war machine instantly.

-It has a single useful ability: a spammable ranged attack dealing ~300k damage to a mob and ~50k damage to a player. The others are: a turret dealing 5k per shot on mobs and about 0 on players, some kind of movement boost that gets stuck on terrain and instantly cancelled, and a weird hovering effect that lifts you upwards slightly and makes you bobble in different directions without actually being able to move.

-It's slow. Moves about slightly faster than walking but slower than running.

-It makes looting corpses impossible, thus invalidating any PvE use.

-It forces you into a first person perspective with "helmet slit" effect as seen on screenshot, drastically reducing your positional awareness and, of course, preventing you from feeling like a hulking metal badass. This is unprecedented in WoW, except for some turret sequences; no vehicles ever did this, and looks about as out of place as trying to operate the Atlas in Mass Effect 3.

-It flat out can't be used anywhere other than in outdoor Broken Isles zones. I crafted mine in Borean Tundra and was slumped as to why wouldn't it activate. Apparently, a profession-restricted expensive craft is supposed to be subject to the same restrictions as WoD's free garrison perks like the NUKULAR launcher.

All in all: It's not worth crafting. It can't damage, can't survive and, most importantly, can't show off. If it is an incentive for engineers to go through an arduous process of levelling to 800 on assorted useless devices, then it has been a complete and utter disappointment. It also doesn't come close to fulfilling the class fantasy of being like Mekkatorque or Blackfuse piloting a mech into battle.

And here's another point of view;



But they also say it isn't worth crafting.

[Ielenia]

Yes, let's talk about Reaves Piloted Combat mode

Look at all that those goalposts being moved around.

Bravo.

The original point was: "engineering does not allow you to fight inside a mech", but after it was proven that engineering does allow you to fight inside a mech suit, you change your point to: "it doesn't deal enough damage", "can't use anywhere I want", "it's not worth crafting", etc.

[Rhamses]

Look at all that those goalposts being moved around.

Bravo.

The original point was: "engineering does not allow you to fight inside a mech", but after it was proven that engineering does allow you to fight inside a mech suit, you change your point to: "it doesn't deal enough damage", "can't use anywhere I want", "it's not worth crafting", etc.

That isn't what I said. I said that Engineering doesn't properly represent the class fantasy shown via Mekkatorque and Blackfuse. Having to go through a virtual hell to craft a worthless device loaded with restrictions definitely doesn't fufill the fantasy of being a badass Gnome or Goblin piloting a mech into battle.

[Nnyco]

i am usually not someone who rerolls but tinker would make me really consider it

[Ielenia]

That isn't what I said. I said that Engineering doesn't properly represent the class fantasy shown via Mekkatorque and Blackfuse.

It does. It allows you to fight in a mech. Case closed.

The fact you don't have as much HP as Gelbin or can't deal as much damage as Blackfuse is irrelevant. It's a simple gameplay restriction, not lore restriction.

[Rhamses]

It does. It allows you to fight in a mech. Case closed.

The fact you don't have as much HP as Gelbin or can't deal as much damage as Blackfuse is irrelevant. It's a simple gameplay restriction, not lore restriction.

You have to go through hell and high water to get the mats, can't fight in any dungeons or raids, and are stuck outdoors on Broken Isles. All of which is a lore restriction. Mekktorque or Blackfuse don't have similar restrictions, thus the class fantasy is unfulfilled.

[Deleted]

Ahhh the obligatory tinker thread. How nice.

I don't think it should be a new class. What I can imagine is a rogue spec. Either as a fourth or as a replacement for one of the current ones. A spec that uses gadgets to mess with the enemy. Either as a ranged dps or a tank. Why rogue? Dunno. Just a feeling.

[Mysd]

If I were to decide this class design, I'd make it in a simple way:

Only two specs:

- Ranged DPS: based on ranged weapons (missiles, turrets, bombs, lasers, whatever...)
- Tank: a mobile melee-Mech suit, similar to Mekkatorque's vehicle.

Only available for Goblins/Gnomes (this is good for horde mainly, I'm tired to see an overpopulation of belfs)
Mail armor, based on Intellect stat for both specs.
Both specs with an exclusive support toolkit.

[Kiradyn]

You have to go through hell and high water to get the mats, can't fight in any dungeons or raids, and are stuck outdoors on Broken Isles. All of which is a lore restriction. Mekktorque or Blackfuse don't have similar restrictions, thus the class fantasy is unfulfilled.

Yeah, you're definitely not some genius inventor who can take down armies and bosses with your machine of death. You're just some chump who has to collect a bunch of scraps and materials in order to construct a toy from a blueprint that you can only use in one part of the world.

[Rhamses]

If I were to decide this class design, I'd make it in a simple way:

Only two specs:

- Ranged DPS: based on ranged weapons (missiles, turrets, bombs, lasers, whatever...)
- Tank: a mobile melee-Mech suit, similar to Mekkatorque's vehicle.

Only available for Goblins/Gnomes (this is good for horde mainly, I'm tired to see an overpopulation of belfs)
Mail armor, based on Intellect stat for both specs.
Both specs with an exclusive support toolkit.

I agree with everything, except the two spec part.

Unlike Demon Hunters, Blizzard should have no problem coming up with 3, or even 4 specs for the class.

I'd go for 3 specs: One tank spec and 2 Ranged DPS specs.

Tank spec would just be melee, pretty self explanatory.

The two DPS specs would be Demolition (Flame Throwers, fire-based explosives) representing Goblin tech, and the other DPS spec would be energy based (lasers, energy-based weaponry) representing Gnome tech.

I really think mech piloting should be the present in all three specs.

[Ielenia]

You have to go through hell and high water to get the mats,

Irrelevant.

can't fight in any dungeons or raids, and are stuck outdoors on Broken Isles. All of which is a lore restriction.

Factually wrong. That is not a lore restriction. Obviously you don't know what 'lore' is and how different it is from 'gameplay'. If that's the case, do please find out what 'lore' means.

[Rhamses]

Irrelevant.

Very relevant, since it makes obtaining the module extremely difficult to near impossible. Is it that difficult for Mekkatorque or Blackfuse to construct a combat module? Nope. So that means that there's a lore-based reason why your task is so much more difficult than theirs yet you obtain worse results.

Factually wrong. That is not a lore restriction. Obviously you don't know what 'lore' is and how different it is from 'gameplay'. If that's the case, do please find out what 'lore' means.

Like I said, it is a lore restriction that is reflected in the gameplay. You're not on the level of a Goblin or Gnome genius so you have to work harder to obtain a worse result. The reason Blizzard made it that way is to bring home the point that you're not in the same league as a Mekkatorque or a Blackfuse. Which makes sense btw, since Warriors, Paladins, Shaman, etc. aren't inventors or tech geniuses.

Not to be rude, but anyone who thinks that running around in a gimped mech is equivalent to a Mekkatorque or Blackfuse fighting in mech armor is severely delusional.

[Ielenia]

Is it that difficult for Mekkatorque or Blackfuse to construct a combat module? Nope.

Fine. Prove it.

Prove that Mekkatorque or Blackfuse can create out a combat mech very easily, with commonly available materials. You made the claim, now back it up.

Like I said, it is a lore restriction that is reflected in the gameplay.

It's not a lore restriction. And you claiming it is does not make it so. It is purely a gameplay restriction. Why I say that? Because it doesn't make any logical sense from a lore perspective that the mech suit would somehow only work in the Broken Isles. Just like it's a gameplay restriction that we cannot mount up (or even fly) inside most dungeons and raids.

[Rhamses]

Fine. Prove it.
Prove that Mekkatorque or Blackfuse can create out a combat mech very easily, with commonly available materials. You made the claim, now back it up.

Nice try, but I never made that argument. I said that Blackfuse and Mekkatorque arent going around the world looking for parts for a single combat module to build an inferior mech.

One of the main devices necessary to make the pilot combat module work comes out of the Iron Juggernaut, which Blackfuse invented. The Iron Juggernaut is leaps and bounds more advanced and powerful than Reaves in combat mode.

It's not a lore restriction. And you claiming it is does not make it so. It is purely a gameplay restriction. Why I say that? Because it doesn't make any logical sense from a lore perspective that the mech suit would somehow only work in the Broken Isles. Just like it's a gameplay restriction that we cannot mount up (or even fly) inside most dungeons and raids.

It makes perfect sense; You suck at building Mechs so the mech you build are loaded with flaws and drawbacks (gameplay restrictions). Meanwhile, the genius level Goblins and Gnomes have been constructing and piloting superior mechs since Vanilla.

[Marxman]

It makes little sense, considering most of the Tinker kit is covered with Engineering.

Then again, DH made little sense and that happened... so what do I know?