i dont get the opposition to parsing in FFXIV

[unfilteredJW]

I mean... I can't help but laugh when there is a dps problem and I am doing 50% damage and the other bard passive aggressively asks me why I am using foes then motions a vote abandon when I tell him "because it's free damage". After dragging all 700 of his dps through sohm al this fucking boo boo ass bitch midget motherfucker is going to act like he was doing 1700 dps and I was doing 300? When he can't even read a tooltip?

Thanks for being a good example as to why.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

OP just reading some of your posts make you sound like you're what Yoshi-P doesn't want to happen in game, I was at the Frankfurt fanfest back in Feb and when he was asked about Parser's the attitude you have shown in this thread sum up why he does not want Parser's in FFXIV.

It's not that parsers themselves cause toxicity among the playerbase but the attitudes some players like yourself seem to form about everyone else being trash where as you're l33t.

Then the problem actually is being caused by the numbers. The game is a numbers game, as a rule numbers matter. If you have a choice between someone doing half their potential damage or 80% of their potential damage, you want them doing 80% rather than 50% (obviously barring any situation where you need to throttle dps for mechanics).

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Is it really so hard to let bygones be bygones?

If letting the bygones be bygones mean it taking 20% longer to finish something, then yeah it can be hard. People tend get upset if they feel their time is being wasted. To me it comes down to having a fundamental respect for your fellow players, and part of that means not needlessly wasting their time by playing poorly.

[Dwill]

Not if the boss dies, no.

Tell me that when you hit the enrage on certain bosses. I've seen people fail the first boss of Dun Scaith due to not having room to move, I'll let you take a quick guess as to how that happened.

LOL 20% longer. Who the fk are you? You got a super important meeting to get to? Gotta volunteer down at the battered women's shelter? I could have understood if u said the boss won't die, but 20% longer? Oh the humanity!

When you're talking 4-5 minutes instead of 2-3 every boss in an expert, that cuts into the limited playtime some people have might whether we're important or not.

[Cattleya]

Tell me that when you hit the enrage on certain bosses. I've seen people fail the first boss of Dun Scaith due to not having room to move, I'll let you take a quick guess as to how that happened.



When you're talking 4-5 minutes instead of 2-3 every boss in an expert, that cuts into the limited playtime some people have might whether we're important or not.

So basically, you'd kick the lowest DPS because a boss took 4 minutes instead of 2? That is exactly why S-E doesn't want parsers.

Talking about a successful kill here, mind you. An enrage mechanic wiping the group falls under "DPS didn't do enough to kill the boss".

[Shadowswann]

Hi , just a (rather hardcore ?) wow player , and im quite shocked about what i learned there , talking about 'DPS' is punished ? in order not to shame people ?

I only played ff for a month , never did endgame content , but i didnt think it was such a casual game , because with no way / interdiction to evaluate player performance you cant (or at least its hard) to find really good player or 'rank them' , cause yes hardcore endgame is about competition against the game first , succeding in dealing with mechanics , then against othe rplayers to always perform better than the others/the best way possible .

Again it makes FF such a casual game to me,and really push me away. I find stunning they decided to go officialy that way , even if i understant the 'no harrasment' part , parsing can be hurt some people.

I guess i m just not the kind of player they want to attract and prefer to stay in a casual stance, and they still have a good playerbase so it works =)

[Bullettime]

You quoted a post where I said "if the boss dies no problem" and argue " but but enrage timers".

And why is your time more important than the mediocre dps's? Maybe he has limited time and doesn't have time to do much research or whatever to min max. Maybe he's 'special' and playing ff14 is his only outlet for fun in an otherwise limited life? My point is you don't know. Why are you so special but he/she isn't? Because your arbitrary numbers in a video game are higher than his?

Which is why I posted above that I feel there should be at least some sort of performance grade to subtly nudge people in the direction of improvement. Doing a few hundred DPS with 260+ gear because you're a clueless buffoon isn't something that should be allowed to slide, but if the players aren't allowed to deal with it ourselves (we can't even vote kick people for certain reasons) then SE needs to do a better job at nudging people to improvement.

A performance grade system like you see in other games, and especially in many/most Japanese games, wouldn't be out of place and could accomplish that goal. Someone constantly pulling in D grades would hopefully be more likely to go look up what they need to do to improve and no flaming involved.

[threads]

it's to protect casual bads from getting their feelings hurt.

almost everyone that is remotely competitive and raids uses parsers and doesn't care.

[Veluren]

Hi , just a (rather hardcore ?) wow player , and im quite shocked of what i learned there , talking about 'DPS' is punished ? in order not to shame people ?
I only played ff for a month , never did endgame content , but i didnt think it was such a casual game , because with no way / interdiction to evaluate player performance you cant (or at least its hard) to find really good player or 'rank them' .
Again it makes FF such a casual game to me,and really push me away i find it stunning they decided to go officialy that way , even if i understant the 'no harrasment' part which can be hurting some people.
I guess i m just not the kind of player they want to attract and prefer to stay in a casual stance, and they still have a good playerbase so it works =)

This post blew up because I imagine all the WoW players are seeing this Alien world because of the title when it shows up on the front page.

Here's the thing, using parsers is NOT going to get you banned in and of itself, but you stay hush hush about it. You can't use it to treat them wrong or put down other players, but using it for your own growth of the growth of your friends or raid group is fine.

Stay hush hush and don't use it to harass people, and you can get away with using one fine.

Honestly, I feel like that's also the reason we have no option to see exact boss HP numbers like we do in WoW, the most we can go is seeing percentages. It outright forces the game to be less about numbers rapidly going down and more about seeing the group effort involved in chipping away at a boss' percentage and health bar

[Deleted]

The idea that non-toxic people turn toxic because of parsing is ridiculous. Being able to analyze my damage, damage taken and healing properly would be amazing. Analyzing a single pull, a trend between failing pulls, pulls with different gear etc would be a good tool to have.

[Vynny]

Yes it is, according to SE guidelines. You think they're doing a subpar job of their role? Leave. Maybe from failing continously they'll eventually learn and adapt themselves to what's going on.

The point was that they were highlighting a double standard. It is toxic when people harass or outright kick a bad dps for not performing well enough, but it is also toxic when a bad dps forces you to have to carry them because they don't care to pull their fair share of the weight. These are both toxic situations that lead to people not enjoying the game which is the problem that is being pointed out.

[Thage]

You are the embodiment of every reason there is opposition to parsing.

This. FFXIV's devs are keenly aware of the notorious reputation MMORPGs have as a cesspool of antisocial jackasses who only tolerate one another for shiny loots and that random strangers on the internet can and will capitalize on any opportunity to rip each other apart. It's an especially endemic problem in otaku subculture over in Japan. They'd have to be as willfully blind as Alex Afrasiabi to think otherwise.

All threads like this is show they made the right choice in establishing a stance against parses, as all they do is encourage a toxic atmosphere that the FFXIV devs do not want in their game. Your focus should be on working together to take down the boss and on properly executing fight mechanics; unless you're doing current-tier Savage content (which you should be doing with a static anyway, meaning you should have out-of-game means like Discord to communicate any issues with your group's performance) it's far more important to stay out of fire and dodge telegraphs than it is to go big-dick and mash your cooldowns at every opportunity. That is where the devs want your focus, not on whether or not Johnny Summoner is doing 5% less than optimal DPS because sometimes his Bio drops off while he's busy running away from Nidhogg's AoE.

[Baconeggcheese]

Pretty much. You still see people flaming or being toxic towards people who are obviously underperforming.

The worst thing is in a game with no meters / logs you really have no way to tell why you wiped to an encounter. Which then starts the finger pointing, except its all based on conjecture and there can be no objective criticism unless someone is just doing something egregious that the game also telegraphs well.

Not having that information is only healthy for a game when that information never matters. If everything is effectively LFR difficulty then you really don't need logs / meters. Once content starts being tuned to be demanding then you want to have these things or you're in for a bad time. Unless you're the person directly benefiting from it.

[Cattleya]

The idea that non-toxic people turn toxic because of parsing is ridiculous. Being able to analyze my damage, damage taken and healing properly would be amazing. Analyzing a single pull, a trend between failing pulls, pulls with different gear etc would be a good tool to have.

You can do that, the parsers are there, S-E doesn't take action against you for using them. What they don't want you to do is look at random joe's damage in the duty finder and start talking down to him.

[Veluren]

Basically, I really don't want to be that guy, but quite a few of the people jumping in here are using terms such as "Casuals" meant in the negative, "Bads", "Scrubs", basically short hand for the sort of toxic, rude behavior nobody wants to put up with in an MMO, these are the people in defense of parsing (not all of them, of course, several of those in support are being constructive).

Call it a safe space if you will, but I'll take a slightly longer Dun Scaeth clear because we have one or two subpar DPS, then spend twice that time arguing, bickering, name calling, and kicking and replacing players.

It helps reduce toxicity more than a lot of people think, dismissing the idea that it doesn't is disingenuous

[Shadowswann]

I find that kind of tool to be really usefull to now what talent/gear/strat works the best on a boss , i hope even if you dont have precise numbers you can still have an idea of them.

The idea to try again the game was in my mind , especially because of the concep of 'you have your character, you can lvl every class on it' that i find amazing (and would loooooove to see wow go that way , but i know it will never happen ) but no precise damage meter push me away like i said.

For me , in order to be satisfied i need to have a tool to know im doing the best possible, min/maxing as hell . Realized a while ago WoW/raiding may be without any texture/mobs , just health bars/ a dps meter and mechanics to deal with i would be happy.
But i know im just an ultra/inexistant minority of players

[Kakera]

Neither do I. Get good or get out.

[Najja]

But as this thread as evidence of such, you can't trust the players to not be toxic with those tools which really hinders any opportunity of such a program being implemented in ff14, unless the devs change their current philosophy.
@Bullettime

So its school all over again? Since some people can't be trusted to use certain things in the proper way or at the proper time no one should have them.

[Bullettime]

But as this thread as evidence of such, you can't trust the players to not be toxic with those tools which really hinders any opportunity of such a program being implemented in ff14, unless the devs change their current philosophy.
@Bullettime

Eh I'm not even asking for something visible to anyone but the player themselves. Basically, you fight a boss, it dies, you get a grade based on your performance. This is something extremely common in other Japanese games, even adopted by League of Legends, and is a subtle nudge to improve your play over allowing parsers.

[Vulgrym]

Don't blame the tools, blame the people. If they're going to use data from a parser as an excuse to be toxic, they were going to exhibit it in some way regardless.

Logging utilities are very useful to help you understand how you're playing your character and can give you insight into encounters.

If these tools only shared <Name> <DPS> I'd have more sympathy for not wanting them in the game.

As it stands, running into the occasional douchebag like the OP is worth it.

[Cattleya]

As a reminder: You can parse in FFXIV, Square-Enix won't ban you for doing so. They don't want you to flaunt them in a *public* environment, such as the duty finder.

Using them for self-improvement? A-Okay. Dropping someone from your static raid group because they weren't performing well enough? A-Okay.
Kicking someone from the duty finder group because they did lower DPS and the boss took 1-2 minutes extra? No.