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  1. #261
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    the worst part about the game right now is relinquished arcane-crystal :thinking:

    this is the real reason why top guilds are quitting or going casual.
    I still have wet dreams when I think of a "simple relinquished" 880 arcanocristal.

  2. #262
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Who cares? First, as people have noted, this happens. People in the guilds decide to do other things etc and guilds collapse. None of the guilds that are top 10 now existed when I started in TBC and I would bet that none of the TBC era raiders from those top guilds are still in the top guilds in Legion.

    Others will bubble up and take top spots and if that doesn't happen? So? Let's say all top 100 guilds quit. Oh no, 2000 people quit! Wait, that's a tiny drop I the bucket. The fact is that virtually no one who plays normally even knows about these. I would bet that if Mythic disappeared we'd be fine - I'm not advocating that, but this community has a massively skewed take on the game simply because of who hangs out here.

  3. #263
    Warchief ImpTaimer's Avatar
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    "We got caught breaking the EULA multiple times over the course of the expansion. Better save face and quit the game."

    Nothing of value lost.
    There are no bathrooms, only Zuul.

  4. #264
    I think most people are looking over the fact that many "top guilds" have a lot of WoW veterans (long-time players). Most of them are getting bored of WoW at this point or have more real-life commitments than they used to and just don't have time for hardcore raiding anymore. They're literally growing up and moving on.

    That on top of the fact that less people are playing MMORPGs in general, causing there to be a lack of available skilled raiders, means a lot of top guilds just can't compete anymore.

    That has more of an effect on the situation than mechanics like AP grind and what not IMO.

  5. #265
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephcyte View Post
    Its not about John or LFR guy getting extremly lucky via RNG and getting those items. Its about mythic raiders being unable to obtain those items via progression and effort. (925)

    WF/TF should just have a cap based on difficulty you do and the system would be fine.
    It would also be better for the progression side of the game.

    Too easy as a casual (myself) to out-gear the content I should be working on, by literally doing nothing. It makes most of the content trivial garbage.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.

  6. #266
    With the overall player base declining it's only logical and natural that it also has an impact on high end raiding guilds as well. I guess that more and more high end raiders seem to realize that investing weeks and months of your time into an extreme niche playstyle is simply not worth the effort and effectively a massive waste of time and/or they're simply quitting for the same reasons the average player does (RL, lack of interest, WoW not fun anymore, friends quitting, ...)

    If anything, high end raiding is shrinking itself back to healthy and sustainable levels. This would not be a bad thing actually.
    #MakeBlizzardGreatAgain

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    The first part of what you said makes absolutely no sense. Streaming revenue is much higher now than in the past, hence why more people do it. There have never been any rewards/profits from competing for world first, it's just prestige. And people definitely did burn out from all the grinding required in Legion, claiming anything else is just insane.
    He's specifically talking about WoW streaming.

    Majority of viewers prefer relevant / current things, not a game that's almost a teenager.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfric Trumpcloak View Post
    The AP system forces you to play every day. Not only play every day, but to do the same boring crap every time. It's also there to give people the illusion of content, Legion has actually had less content than all the other expansions except WoD.
    Bull-fucking-shit. And fuck you for even having the guts to say that. We're not even halfway through expansion yet and it's already bigger than BC and Cata.(maybe even MoP)

    Infracted
    Last edited by Wilderness; 2017-05-21 at 12:30 PM.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Protean View Post
    Bull-fucking-shit. And fuck you for even having the guts to say that. We're not even halfway through expansion yet and it's already bigger than BC and Cata.(maybe even MoP)
    Emo much? Jesus Christ.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Emo much? Jesus Christ.

    Second to the "Emo much" statement. While I personally feel we are well past the half way point of this xpac, Legion is on par with Burning Crusade as far as content and a close second for difficulty. Dungeon difficulty could be increased some, but with m+ its hard to gauge.

    I would leave your buddy Jesus out of the convo though.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by bloaf View Post
    Second to the "Emo much" statement. While I personally feel we are well past the half way point of this xpac, Legion is on par with Burning Crusade as far as content and a close second for difficulty. Dungeon difficulty could be increased some, but with m+ its hard to gauge.

    I would leave your buddy Jesus out of the convo though.
    I don't agree though.

    Legion gives the illusion of content because there's a lot of repeating in play. World quests, M+, LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic.

    If you scrutinise what the content actually is, it's nothing more than repeating the same thing over and over again; World quests aren't interesting and are basically all the same. Dungeons are all the same, considering tactics don't matter but merely the composition that has the best AE capabilities. Raid content is trivialised by one small step in tiers. Seriously, EN doesn't even matter anymore. Compare that to BC where people were still doing Gruul's lair for the DST and guilds actually progressed through SSC and TK before setting foot in BT. Then we have our most recent 'content': The broken shore. Seriously, who would even call that content? It's just another bland island with the same boring world quests we've been doing since Legion's release.

    In short: Legion is genius. Not because it's fun, but because it has people running in circles following multiple carrots on a stick; AP, Legendaries, M+ gear, Raid gear.

    I've stopped doing world quests and every other thing people do to "farm" variable X a long time ago. I only do what's fun to me. Today it might be an M+, tomorrow a few BGs, the day after a transmog run in some old raid. But grinding, no. Never.
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2017-05-20 at 11:15 PM.

  11. #271
    People still run M Ursoc for BTI, and M Helya drops + Guarm trinket constitute many BiS pieces for many specs.

  12. #272
    Guys, The Beatles split up. It's over. Music is dead. There is nobody else that will ever make music again.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    I don't agree though.

    Legion gives the illusion of content because there's a lot of repeating in play. World quests, M+, LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic.

    If you scrutinise what the content actually is, it's nothing more than repeating the same thing over and over again; World quests aren't interesting and are basically all the same. Dungeons are all the same, considering tactics don't matter but merely the composition that has the best AE capabilities. Raid content is trivialised by one small step in tiers. Seriously, EN doesn't even matter anymore. Compare that to BC where people were still doing Gruul's lair for the DST and guilds actually progressed through SSC and TK before setting foot in BT. Then we have our most recent 'content': The broken shore. Seriously, who would even call that content? It's just another bland island with the same boring world quests we've been doing since Legion's release.

    In short: Legion is genius. Not because it's fun, but because it has people running in circles following multiple carrots on a stick; AP, Legendaries, M+ gear, Raid gear.

    I've stopped doing world quests and every other thing people do to "farm" variable X a long time ago. I only do what's fun to me. Today it might be an M+, tomorrow a few BGs, the day after a transmog run in some old raid. But grinding, no. Never.
    The content is definately there, question is, do you like it or not.

    How much i like BC, i don't know if you can even argue it had more content then Legion.

    TBC PVE content

    10 levels worth of leveling content.
    A good set of dungeons
    4 Raid tiers (for a total of 16 10 man bosses and 33 25 man bosses).

    these are imho TBC strongest points as it was all good content.

    However outside of Raiding / Dungeons there was not alot to do in terms of max level content, a few rep farms, however running dungeons would also farm you the most of the reps. Nether Drake, Sporregar, Skyguard and Ogri'la had some daily Quest content combined with a few other daily quests that was basicly the only outdoor content until the isle opened, except of course for farming stuff.

    With Legion we will have atleast

    10 levels worth of leveling content
    a Good set of dungeons (and the M+ system)
    3 Raidtiers (29 bosses confirmed over the first 2 tiers, 1 tier to be confirmed atleast with Argus)

    While legion has vastly more outdoor content. WQ system is alot bigger then TBC dailies system. Alot more storyline content with the full suramar zone, Orderhall campaign and illidan lore stuff, Class quest content, Brokenshore (altough i agree its lacking), Class challenges, Pet Battles, "hidden mounts" content, and probably i forget some stuff i dislike.

    I don't think atleast you can urgue in any way that Legion has less content overall then TBC. It can however have less content that you like to do. I mean not all ppl like to do pet battles, do WQ's and that stuff.
    Last edited by chronia; 2017-05-21 at 09:59 AM.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by chronia View Post
    The content is definately there, question is, do you like it or not.

    How much i like BC, i don't know if you can even argue it had more content then Legion.

    TBC PVE content

    10 levels worth of leveling content.
    A good set of dungeons
    4 Raid tiers (for a total of 16 10 man bosses and 33 25 man bosses).

    these are imho TBC strongest points as it was all good content.

    However outside of Raiding / Dungeons there was not alot to do in terms of max level content, a few rep farms, however running dungeons would also farm you the most of the reps. Nether Drake, Sporregar, Skyguard and Ogri'la had some daily Quest content combined with a few other daily quests that was basicly the only outdoor content until the isle opened, except of course for farming stuff.

    With Legion we will have atleast

    10 levels worth of leveling content
    a Good set of dungeons (and the M+ system)
    3 Raidtiers (29 bosses confirmed over the first 2 tiers, 1 tier to be confirmed atleast with Argus)

    While legion has vastly more outdoor content. WQ system is alot bigger then TBC dailies system. Alot more storyline content with the full suramar zone, Orderhall campaign and illidan lore stuff, Class quest content, Brokenshore (altough i agree its lacking), Class challenges, Pet Battles, "hidden mounts" content, and probably i forget some stuff i dislike.

    I don't think atleast you can urgue in any way that Legion has less content overall then TBC. It can however have less content that you like to do. I mean not all ppl like to do pet battles, do WQ's and that stuff.
    TBC had 7 raids, gear tiers have nothing to do with content.

    Karazhan
    SSC
    TK
    MH
    BT
    SWPT
    Zul Aman

    Regardless, it's obvious that Legion has most content when you compare sheer quantity. But, imho, quality matters more. Can you consider world quests content? I don't; they're boring, trivial and only done for AP and the emissary chest.

    M+ is great and I have been talking about such a system since tbc. The only thing I think Blizzard failed on (massively) is the timer (which they acknowledged and will be changing) and the focus on trash which is nigh unanimously considered the least fun thing about dungeons and raids.

    Anyway, Legion is a nice xpac. But with the nice, came so, so much shit. It's a shame.
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2017-05-21 at 01:35 PM.

  15. #275
    Herald of the Titans Dangg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowchikabow View Post
    Yes, it can.
    It's complete irrelevant in a realistic scenario. Swapping in a geared alt of a favorable class is actually the thing which made the difference in the past few races.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Nakloh View Post
    You think Exorsus is clearing Mythic Nighthold with 3 split raids and 2 more not full clearing every week just to go casual in Tomb? Top kek.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeah that's why the top AP leaderboards are filled with members from Exorsus, Method, Limit, Prestige Gaming, ScrubBusters, FSY etc. Right?

    They are not fucking retarded like most people that cry about the AP grind. They know that when they are 52, they are good for tomb, the rest comes by itself without actively farming shit.

    Pretty much this. Once you hit concordance you're more than fine, AP comes in practically passively with our weekly raids so most of us aren't even "farming" AP. The only time I step into m+ is for my weekly 10's+
    Boomkin/Mage/Whatever in Fatsharkyes

  17. #277
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Fevyz View Post
    Pretty much this. Once you hit concordance you're more than fine, AP comes in practically passively with our weekly raids so most of us aren't even "farming" AP. The only time I step into m+ is for my weekly 10's+
    This is why you are not in the position of getting world #1 *joke*

    Instead of pumping endless AP in one char, it makes a lot more sense of course to bring all your raid relevant twinks also to concordance 1. But it should be quite unavoidable to get somewhat around paragon 6 to 7 automatically on your main char at the time ToS opens.

    But I dont want to read something like "the other guilds members have +3 traits more on average, thats why we loose" in the next race.
    Last edited by mmoca163a27034; 2017-05-22 at 07:42 AM.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    I don't agree though.

    Legion gives the illusion of content because there's a lot of repeating in play. World quests, M+, LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic.

    If you scrutinise what the content actually is, it's nothing more than repeating the same thing over and over again; World quests aren't interesting and are basically all the same. Dungeons are all the same, considering tactics don't matter but merely the composition that has the best AE capabilities. Raid content is trivialised by one small step in tiers. Seriously, EN doesn't even matter anymore. Compare that to BC where people were still doing Gruul's lair for the DST and guilds actually progressed through SSC and TK before setting foot in BT. Then we have our most recent 'content': The broken shore. Seriously, who would even call that content? It's just another bland island with the same boring world quests we've been doing since Legion's release.

    In short: Legion is genius. Not because it's fun, but because it has people running in circles following multiple carrots on a stick; AP, Legendaries, M+ gear, Raid gear.

    I've stopped doing world quests and every other thing people do to "farm" variable X a long time ago. I only do what's fun to me. Today it might be an M+, tomorrow a few BGs, the day after a transmog run in some old raid. But grinding, no. Never.
    You've basically described all wow expansions. All wow expansions make you run through the same shit a thousand times. Legion just has more variety. You had 20 dailies per patch? Now you get 50-100 dailies per patch. You had a tiny storyline per patch? Now you get sometimes a good one with some sexy rewards, sometimes a bad one with some sexy rewards (arcanist manasaber/class mount respectively). You had a huge amazing raid? You have a huge amazing raid. You had dungeons with stagnant boring loot you had to run a thousand times? Same now, only this time some of the dungeon loot might be BiS and the dungeons feel more varied and sometimes less or more difficult depending on the affixes. Pvp? More rewards than ever with the new prestige system. So Legion has had more content than any other expansion, aside from maybe MoP, but it might do at the end of its lifespan. Also, one more thing about raids, they might have 4 difficulties now, but nothing stops you from raiding only one. I only raid HC and some mythic, soon I will drop HC. Before I was doing normal with a bit of HC.

    Unless you are cutting edge world first, you don't need to farm all 4 difficulties on ALL raids every week to stay competitive.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by bowchikabow View Post
    Yes, it can. More importantly, if you have a raid with 20 people.. and lets say none of them went past 51. They get their 2000 in primary stat, which is awesome. If that same group had 4 dps that went a 2nd point.. that is exponentially higher than just 200 primary stat per. Furthermore, having 20 people with an extra 200 primary stat makes a HUUGGEE difference. And that is just one point extra. Imagine 5 points? Now each person has 3000 instead of 2000. Still think it is meaningless?

    I'm not saying its a good thing, but I do wish people better understood big picture when it comes to stuff like this. An edge is an edge. the difference between world 1st, 2nd, and 10th might come down to those 200 or 400 primary stat points.
    Remember it's a PROC with 200/400 extra stat points, that's like 60 extra stat points at best. Having bad luck with drops or slacking with m+ will make bigger difference. And for majority of fights individual skill is still far more important. With individual skill i also mean being able to squeeze out the most dps possible in different situations.

    Even back in ToV hardcore guilds didn't completely nolife artifacts. While some had 35 others had 40-45. They could have forced everyone to play 24/7 and be like 50 traits, but they didn't. Those traits had far greater impact on dps, so if it didn't make sense to nolife it then, it certainly doesn't now.
    Last edited by barackohmama; 2017-05-22 at 08:32 AM.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Valaut View Post
    You've basically described all wow expansions. All wow expansions make you run through the same shit a thousand times. Legion just has more variety. You had 20 dailies per patch? Now you get 50-100 dailies per patch. You had a tiny storyline per patch? Now you get sometimes a good one with some sexy rewards, sometimes a bad one with some sexy rewards (arcanist manasaber/class mount respectively). You had a huge amazing raid? You have a huge amazing raid. You had dungeons with stagnant boring loot you had to run a thousand times? Same now, only this time some of the dungeon loot might be BiS and the dungeons feel more varied and sometimes less or more difficult depending on the affixes. Pvp? More rewards than ever with the new prestige system. So Legion has had more content than any other expansion, aside from maybe MoP, but it might do at the end of its lifespan. Also, one more thing about raids, they might have 4 difficulties now, but nothing stops you from raiding only one. I only raid HC and some mythic, soon I will drop HC. Before I was doing normal with a bit of HC.

    Unless you are cutting edge world first, you don't need to farm all 4 difficulties on ALL raids every week to stay competitive.
    Oh dear, you completely missed the point.

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