[TV] The Flash!

[ravenmoon]

Pre-Flashpoint Timeline: Savitar kills Iris. Barry creates time remnants to try to defeat Savitar. Savitar kills all but one of them. Barry eventually traps Savitar in the Speed Force forever. The surviving time remnant is shunned by his family, and eventually becomes Savitar, who travels back in time to establish his own myth and to kill Iris. His existance is a bootstrap paradox.

3x15: "When you created Flashpoint, you unwittingly provided me with the means for my return. You gave me the idea to turn Wally into Kid Flash. To make him fast enough to replace me in your prison. His youth and ego were my allies."

Post-Flashpoint Timeline: Savitar kills Iris. Barry creates time remnants to try to defeat Savitar. Savitar kills all but one of them. Barry eventually traps Savitar in the Speed Force "forever". The surviving time remnant is shunned by his family, and eventually becomes Savitar, who travels back in time to establish his own myth and to kill Iris. Savitar (trapped in the Speed Force) gets the idea to turn Wally into Kid Flash thanks to Flashpoint, and uses his acolyte Alchemy to do so. Wally frees Savitar...

Wait, now I'm confused, why is the 'freed' Savitar the one to kill Iris? Shouldn't the original Savitar who killed Iris still be bouncing around, waiting to be "trapped forever" four years after killing Iris? Unless Iris' death isn't what originally led to Savitar's creation...

the thing is Iris never died in the normal timeline. Prior to flashpoint Iris writes that article, gets married to Barry, they have kids etc. This only changes post flashpoint.

I think that Savitar kills Iris as a deep form of revenge for his incarceration when Barry creates flashpoint and unwittingly provides a means for Savitars return. It is because of this Savitar is able to go back into the past and set himself up in history like he does.

Prior to that I reckon Barry needed to make time remanants for some reason we don't know yet, or maybe we know and i donn't remember, initially the original time remnant is shunned because he's not Barry, he goes bitter and starts causing havoc. Barry fixes the problem trapping him. However, when Barry creates flashpoint Savitar ceases an opportunity for escape and freedom, involving Wally and killing of Iris is to bring Barry as much pain as possible.

Iris' death is not instrumental to Savitars original creation, but it becomes a key part to his post flashpoint creation.

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Two Savitars hanging around. Or something.


<.<

no, Flashpoint changes things for the original Savitar, he meddles with time going into the present to kickstart his own creation under flashpoint and maximise pain for BArry.

[Khime]

the thing is Iris never died in the normal timeline. Prior to flashpoint Iris writes that article, gets married to Barry, they have kids etc. This only changes post flashpoint.

Iris' death is not instrumental to Savitars original creation, but it becomes a key part to his post flashpoint creation.

no, Flashpoint changes things for the original Savitar, he meddles with time going into the present to kickstart his own creation under flashpoint and maximise pain for BArry.

You know, that makes a lot of sense. Savitar could have existed pre-Flashpoint as a disgruntled time remnant who was created to stop himself, eventually leading to him being trapped in the Speed Force forever, without Savitar having killed Iris. He could simply have been an unstoppable speedster monster on a rampage to hurt Barry for his own existance. Once Flashpoint happened, Savitar figured out a way to free himself (via Wally), and then took steps to make sure his own creation happened sooner and/or more surely by killing Iris.

It's not like we've not seen this before. Barry originally got his powers some time in the future, but Eobard Thawne needed Barry to become Flash sooner, so he changed Flash's origin in order to make it happen on Thawne's timetable.

On a tangent, I'm betting Savitar is pitting Killer Frost against Vibe because they're both his greatest threats. We've already seen this season that Vibe's powers can stop a speedster in their tracks, and we know that extreme cold is also the antithesis of a speedster (Cisco originally created the Captain Cold gun as a weapon in case Barry went rogue). So you enthrall one and send her to kill/neutralize the other.

[apepi]

I bet it wasn't Iris he killed, but it was HR using the face changing tech to be her decoy. Could of switched while Flash was shooting as Savitar also explains why Joe was on the roof instead of HR, and why HR wasn't shown on the promo.

Barry creates a time remnant, gets that one to put on the hologram as Iris, and Savitar kills himself?

You know, if this is really a closed loop with no beginning and end, then maybe, Savitar, maybe you got shunned by your family not because you weren't the "real" Barry, but because they all already knew you were going to become Savitar and pre-blamed you for it?

Doctor Who has been preparing me for this kind of episode for years!

How about guys if Iris just...died? And stayed dead? I mean, a lot of us wanted it to happen anyways. Her character honestly is so bad, can't we just let her die and have her death create drama and a better tv show?

[Svifnymr]

the thing is Iris never died in the normal timeline. Prior to flashpoint Iris writes that article, gets married to Barry, they have kids etc. This only changes post flashpoint.

We don't know about kids, afaik. We know she wrote the "disappears" article, but we should probably assume that Barry did return after "disappears", so we could also assume she gets killed after that if we wanted to. Honestly it's hard to remember which futures were mentioned before Flashpoint, I know there was mention of destroying Central City, but can't recall if that was all this season.

The thing with conjured time remnants is that they don't stick around in any other circumstances so I wonder why this one did.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

We don't know about kids, afaik. We know she wrote the "disappears" article, but we should probably assume that Barry did return after "disappears", so we could also assume she gets killed after that if we wanted to. Honestly it's hard to remember which futures were mentioned before Flashpoint, I know there was mention of destroying Central City, but can't recall if that was all this season.

The thing with conjured time remnants is that they don't stick around in any other circumstances so I wonder why this one did.

Last time Barry used a Time Remnant was the race against Zoom and that one gave his life to stop that...magna thingie that Zoom built to destroy the multiverse or whatever. Zoom used his own Time Remnants as well and killed them to. Savitar tells us that he came to be because he was a TR that lived that Barry(Past version of him or another) created Time Remnants to fight Savitar but he killed two of them, leaving one of them alive. Either the original Savitar knew this would happened and spared him or...luck or whatever.


This rabbit hole is getting almost too deep for me.

[Svifnymr]

Last time Barry used a Time Remnant was the race against Zoom and that one gave his life to stop that...magna thingie that Zoom built to destroy the multiverse or whatever. Zoom used his own Time Remnants as well and killed them to. Savitar tells us that he came to be because he was a TR that lived that Barry(Past version of him or another) created Time Remnants to fight Savitar but he killed two of them, leaving one of them alive. Either the original Savitar knew this would happened and spared him or...luck or whatever.


This rabbit hole is getting almost too deep for me.

Mostly I just don't think they have actual rules for this stuff, other than "use what sounds cool".

Going by Reverse Flash, I assumed Time Remnants of this conjured variety were alternate timeline duplicates taken from their spot to assist. Similar to the first time Flash saw himself when he ran through time. But they can die without affecting their timeline spot since little changes might make that timeline gone anyway. That's also why some time remnants might be in the speed force when their timeline-home got rewritten and they can't go back to it. Then the time-wraiths come to collect.

I assume Savitars suit helps vs Wraith hunters, but not sure. Also not sure how he came up with that suit given he isn't even the latest version of Barry, and no Gideon yet or anything.

You know, I've said it before, but too often Barry's enemies reference fights/events that would probably be much cooler to watch than the shows choices...

[Bluesftw]

just catching up on season 3, and i have to say gorilla city episode has the worst cgi in the history of modern television...

[Immitis]

anyone else think flash going back in time and messing with snart is going to lead to snart coming/revealed to be alive? hes a series regular for all the shows and the main reason he wasnt in most of these seasons was prison break and thats been cancelled again and theres only so many "past versions" of snart they can bring back.

[Dasffion]

anyone else think flash going back in time and messing with snart is going to lead to snart coming/revealed to be alive? hes a series regular for all the shows and the main reason he wasnt in most of these seasons was prison break and thats been cancelled again and theres only so many "past versions" of snart they can bring back.

No, Barry going back and messing with Snart is what convinced Snart to sacrifice himself. "No strings on me" is what he said before he sacrificed himself, he also said it at the end of the flash episode in a half whisper.

[Svifnymr]

Seems a perfect reason to bring in Citizen Cold!

[Gemini Soul]

That was an interesting episode, wonder who will betray and who will get the fate worst than death.

I'm wondering if that wasn't really Iris Savatar killed, HW has the face changing tech so it could of been a decoy that he played along with.

Called it about not really being Iris that he killed because of the face change tech.

Wonder how long he will end up being in there for, he will get out somehow. Looks like Harry will be back next season, he was my favorite Wells.

[Khime]

Wonder how long he will end up being in there for, he will get out somehow.

I wonder what the future newspaper looks like now. Does Flash still vanish in 2024, or is the headline about "Kid" Flash now?

[Jetstream]

I wonder what the future newspaper looks like now. Does Flash still vanish in 2024, or is the headline about "Kid" Flash now?

Meh. He'll be out within two episodes, tops :P

[everydaygamer]

God dammit Flash writers I really give you guys too much credit. Overall good finale although time travel continues to make no sense (if Savitar doesn't exist how is Wally Kid Flash), here's hoping Season 4 makes the show fun again.

[ravenmoon]

What a roller coaster episode. Could not have predicted any of it, and it leaves in a place taht you don't know the future.

At first it started a bit corny - and I say that only because one of you guessed about the face swap thing, and that was the first thing shown. Note i did not suspect about that at all, and it would have been a complete surprise if i hadn't read the theory.

but, the twists and turns... gosh... by far the most touching moment by a milestone was showing mercy to Savitar. and if they had ended up with Savitar being saved, it would have been gold standard totally unexpected, but they became predictable when they didn't, there is a reason mercy triumphs over judgement, or shall i say, one circumstance it does, and this showed it completely, genuinely love that changes a person inside out if they accept it. Well Savitar did not accept it, which is a shame, and would have been nice.

Although that was predictable and disappointing, and the comeback wasn't as good, still the twists were quite the roller coaster.. i was just about to come on here to type a different message when the lightning and earthquake started, and quickly returned my attention to watching the show to see another totally unexpected development that resulted in the totally unexpected, Flash going into the speed force eternity to fill the whole.


Totally unexpected, that was a very good plot ending, they could have acheived that with Savitar still living and taking the option for them to help him, finding a solution for Savitar that worked and him living only to have Barry to have to take the place in the speed force would have really had us guessing as to what the future of flash would be.. Savitar? Barry? Although he's gone into the speed force, we know for sure we are going to have a new season so the Flash will return, and while its an unexepcted ending its totally predictable here on end... Savitar living and living on mercy, now that would have us really wondering if next season will be Barry as Savitar or somehow returning from speedforce.

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Called it about not really being Iris that he killed because of the face change tech.

Wonder how long he will end up being in there for, he will get out somehow. Looks like Harry will be back next season, he was my favorite Wells.

yes, and this is why it would have been better for Savitar to live on so many levels - we know Barry will be back its no surprise becasue we know a new season,t aht sort of ending works better on a movie when you have no idea if there will be a sequel or not.

But yes, i like original Harry back, and i hope he and lady doctor can be an awesome duo. they probably won't make both of them full time, writers don't seem to be able to do things like that .. wells, cisco and lady doctor -- are all in the same field of expertise.. they could make it work but i think they'll see it as either Wells or lady doctor. Hope they figure out a way to make it work. Would be nice to explore how a relationship dynamic can develop if it can develop when you loved an alternate reality version of a person, who is now gone and another appears.

Julian would be interesting, he can play the medical role Caitlin played, till she returns to the team full time, i doubt they'd make him a regular, they don't tend to expand on cast/crew, its useually substitues with the recurring characters.. but we shall see.

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oh btw, this is superior to the Supergirl finale, and will almost definitely be much much better than the Arrow finale. I predict.

[Arbiter]

At first it started a bit corny - and I say that only because one of you guessed about the face swap thing, and that was the first thing shown. Note i did not suspect about that at all, and it would have been a complete surprise if i hadn't read the theory.

I'd say it was pretty obvious by the time Barry used the face swap tech to swap his whole body in the previous episode. The fact that Joe ended up on the roof instead of HR was another clue. If you didn't have it guessed by the time Cisco had a talk with HR then that should have been the dead giveaway. The only argument against it from people was "but how could he have had the time".

If you watched the sizzle real and the promos there were even more clues but I can't say those count as clues.

The only thing that's really got me confused is the the Season 4 synopsis mentions HR being alive and well. I thought maybe something would happen to bring him back to life, but unless it happens in Season 4 I'm thinking it was just a misdirection. Maybe it's Harry that will be on the team again.

[ravenmoon]

I'd say it was pretty obvious by the time Barry used the face swap tech to swap his whole body in the previous episode. The fact that Joe ended up on the roof instead of HR was another clue. If you didn't have it guessed by the time Cisco had a talk with HR then that should have been the dead giveaway. The only argument against it from people was "but how could he have had the time".

If you watched the sizzle real and the promos there were even more clues but I can't say those count as clues.

The only thing that's really got me confused is the the Season 4 synopsis mentions HR being alive and well. I thought maybe something would happen to bring him back to life, but unless it happens in Season 4 I'm thinking it was just a misdirection. Maybe it's Harry that will be on the team again.

didn't watch any of hte promos, don't even recall the face swap in the previous episode, must have been grabbing something when it happened./w

[Khime]

The only thing that's really got me confused is the the Season 4 synopsis mentions HR being alive and well. I thought maybe something would happen to bring him back to life, but unless it happens in Season 4 I'm thinking it was just a misdirection. Maybe it's Harry that will be on the team again.

I think the Season 4 synopsis was less "misdirection" and more "outright lie." But we'll see in October, I suppose.

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didn't watch any of hte promos, don't even recall the face swap in the previous episode, must have been grabbing something when it happened./w

It was an entire scene with Barry (disguised as Lyla) and Captain Cold trying to get past A.R.G.U.S. security, with the face-swapping tech allowing Barry-as-Lyla to even pass a retinal scan.

[Immitis]

impulse impulse impulse! do iiiiiiiiit @_@

make eddie the main villain!

[meumaxu]

The villain of season 4 is gonna be DeVoe, Savitar said this name when he was at STAR labs the same way that Abbra Kadabra did when talking about the biggest nemesis of the Flash