How did the Forsaken Join the Horde?

[Arrashi]

Edit:

Nevermind, forget it. I need occasional reminder about Sylvanas discussions around here. Thanks.

Come on you can't give up just yet. Show that horrible sylvanas circlejerk whos da boss !

[Mehrunes]

Yeah 'cept he didn't say that. But conveniently forcing a character into the confines of specific time periods to defend Sylvanas wouldn't be a first for you, as if how Magatha acted post-Horde mattered when she still acted exactly the same.

Ah, right, logic and context. The mortal enemies of Alliance. How could I forget. Also, even if you don't contain the time period, your narrative still remains horseshit (now that's a first for you ) from Horde's perspective. The rambling is kinda bigger than usual though. You talk about how post-Magatha was upfront with how she's all about power and that's somehow exactly the same with Magatha still in the Horde that was secretive about her goals? The fuck are you smoking?

What I said is very simple. Magatha betrayed the Tauren and the Horde, Sylvanas didn't. It's easy to see which one is more trustworthy, both characters are on the opposite position that they were once before.

Know your target audience.

Edit:

Nevermind, forget it. I need occasional reminder about Sylvanas discussions around here. Thanks.

So Tauror confirms that your squirming about what he supposedly said was as wrong as it goes and this is what you go with? Yeah, it's Sylvanas' fault you're dishonest, read what you want and construct an illogical and incoherent narrative around it

That you're wrong and can't admit to yourself that you're wrong so you go to the same old excuses that get you mocked over and over?

What do you mean by "excuses"? Screaming TEH CIRCLEJERK while flailing your hands in the air, escaping the thread and yet claiming some highground is a completely valid line of argumentation.

Come on you can't give up just yet. Show that horrible sylvanas circlejerk whos da boss !

On the upside, it was a productive day in Sylvanas' salt mines.

[Thage]

Sylvanas needed allies with the Scarlet Crusade at her doorstep and the Alliance to the south chomping at the bridle to retake Lordaeron. The Horde needed an access point to the Eastern Kingdoms for security reasons, as the Alliance had two already with the night elf territories and Theramore. I imagine Sylvanas sent Thrall an ambassador, and apparently used Cairne's sympathies to her advantage as through Vanilla, BC, and WotLK (possibly afterward? Haven't been to Thunder Bluff lately) there were Forsaken apothecaries working with the tauren to find potential cures for undeath.

[Shampro]

Edit:

Nevermind, forget it. I need occasional reminder about Sylvanas discussions around here. Thanks.

You just can't help yourself to talk about her in every instance possible. You talk more about her than any other character, any Alliance character for that matter. You're obsessed, more than the ''fanboys'' you call out constantly I can't be the only one that finds that ...interesting?

[TheCount]

The Horde leadership(Thrall) was probably very eager to get some influence on the Eastern Kingdoms. Sylvanas needed some allies to help stave off the Scarlet Crusade and the Alliance who dominate the continent. It was a mutual win from both of them more so Sylvanas who was effectively the leader of the Horde on the EK.

[Magnagarde]

Unless you want to perma paint the Horde as extremely fractured force, it's simply not possible.

However there have been some examples in the past where characters questioned the Forsakens loyalty to the Horde.

One of them is a removed Scarlet Monastery quest from Thunder Bluff which Undead could not accept.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Compe...len_(original)

As far as I know, the compendium quest wasn't removed due to the nature of the revelation it makes, but simply due to the general overhaul of everything in Cataclysm, which is when many quest were replaced with newer ones as time passed on storywise. I've done this quest quite a few times as I rolled orc and tauren characters.

The Horde will always look fractured with the undead in it. Blizzard can attempt to come up with artificial plots to seal these holes away, but they can't undo the logical consequences and critics because they were the ones to come up with all of this nonsense. This is why the Alliance always has more synergy to it, seeing as all the races have a lot in common in their understanding and the way they treat different matters; the Horde has been wronged by Blizzard's storytelling because they've mashed together races that don't belong to eachother in any way, both civilizational and spiritual.

The only reasoning that ever held water is that the undead are their enemies' enemy, so a pact comes through by itself(even this reasoning is the fanbase's reasoning in an attempt to give the story any credibility because I understand that it is pretty difficult to play a faction you like to play as while the backstory behind their allegiance is garbage). The problem is that Blizzard is now trying to put some deeper and more meaningful reasoning behind this, while there is none.

[Verdugo]

Never made sense to me personaly. Makes even less sense now when horde is about stuff that would make logicaly-thinking beings facepalm themselves to death.

[Magnagarde]

The Horde leadership(Thrall) was probably very eager to get some influence on the Eastern Kingdoms. Sylvanas needed some allies to help stave off the Scarlet Crusade and the Alliance who dominate the continent. It was a mutual win from both of them more so Sylvanas who was effectively the leader of the Horde on the EK.

That is what the fanbase has brought up over the years in order to comfort themselves, which is understandable. It is not easy to get your head through with such storytelling.

The point is that Blizzard is very clear about the reason why the Forsaken were allowed in and that was to help them cure themselves and because the Horde felt pity. This is where the issue comes from; it is totally illogical because nobody has worked towards the reason they were admitted into the Horde. It is like the entire Horde has complete amnesia when it comes to the reasons as to why they allowed the undead to join them in the first place and before you know it, an undead high elf leads the entire Horde.

Ogres held larger swathes of land in the EK than this group of undead did. I assume that the real reason why they added the undead to the Horde is because they couldn't come up with a solution for their allegiance. Which camp would they put them into? Would they be a neutral faction? What would they do with all of Lordaeron and the story from Warcraft 3? Answers to this all lead to this conclusion.

[ButterBeast]

Blizzard waved the magic wand of pointless faction affiliations, and... presto... the Forsaken were in the Horde. They did the same thing with the night elves, worgen, and Draenei for the Alliance as well as the blood elves for the Horde. In reality, this game would be better off with 3 to 4 factions (at least in terms of the lore).

You're not very fun at parties are you?

[Kralljin]

The Horde IS a fractured force though.

By fractured, i mean that there are constantly people questioning the Forsakens loyalty.

While the question is not baseless, it would get repetitive.

[Deleted]

The Horde IS a fractured force though. The members all maintain separate armies that are loosely coordinated when there is need. Compare that to the Alliance where nearly every force is racially integrated. All the alliance races have multiple members in e.g. SI:7 or the 7th Legion; only the town guards are not integrated. Meanwhile the Horde essentially fields separates forces that fight together.

Not sure you can make such a strong statement.

kor'krons are mixed post siege (despite there being a troll equivalent force with voljin in charge)
I've seen mixed guards at places like crossroads/barrens/ashenvale since vanilla. at least orcs and taurens, maybe trolls too can't recall.
In siege of orgrimmar the main night elf army was also just elfs, not mixed.

I think it's fairer to say both factions have groups that often work together (troll/orc/tauren - dwarf/gnome/human) and groups that prefer their own thing (undead/belf - nelfs/maybe draenei?).

[Shibito]

Krazyk's hate for sylvanas is getting real old real fast

[Mehrunes]

The Horde will always look fractured with the undead in it. Blizzard can attempt to come up with artificial plots to seal these holes away, but they can't undo the logical consequences and critics because they were the ones to come up with all of this nonsense. This is why the Alliance always has more synergy to it, seeing as all the races have a lot in common in their understanding and the way they treat different matters; the Horde has been wronged by Blizzard's storytelling because they've mashed together races that don't belong to eachother in any way, both civilizational and spiritual.

Just because Forsaken continue to trigger you to no end doesn't mean their plots are artificial. Horde was always about various races banding together for protection of something bigger than them (among other reasons). That fits the Forsaken and is more synergy than the Night Elves in the Alliance have. Who still lack a proper backstory for their joining. Dat synergy.

The only reasoning that ever held water is that the undead are their enemies' enemy, so a pact comes through by itself(even this reasoning is the fanbase's reasoning in an attempt to give the story any credibility because I understand that it is pretty difficult to play a faction you like to play as while the backstory behind their allegiance is garbage). The problem is that Blizzard is now trying to put some deeper and more meaningful reasoning behind this, while there is none.

That is what the fanbase has brought up over the years in order to comfort themselves, which is understandable. It is not easy to get your head through with such storytelling.

The Vanilla Forsaken intro already called it an alliance of convenience. And old Forsaken bio on worldofwarcraft.com repeated that from Horde's perspective and talked about how the Horde gained an invaluable foothold in the Eastern Kingdoms thanks to them. Who'd have thunk, your narrative on this topic is once again merely a fantasy of yours.

The point is that Blizzard is very clear about the reason why the Forsaken were allowed in and that was to help them cure themselves and because the Horde felt pity. This is where the issue comes from; it is totally illogical because nobody has worked towards the reason they were admitted into the Horde. It is like the entire Horde has complete amnesia when it comes to the reasons as to why they allowed the undead to join them in the first place and before you know it, an undead high elf leads the entire Horde.

That's because you conveniently ignore other reasons (that, if memory serves me right, are slightly older than the Grimtotem influence behind the decision).

Also:
Forsaken in Thunder Bluff.
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Bena_Winterhoof
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Delivery_to_Magatha

Just because you don't bother to look for things that disprove your flailing about unnatural plots it doesn't mean they don't exist.

Ogres held larger swathes of land in the EK than this group of undead did. I assume that the real reason why they added the undead to the Horde is because they couldn't come up with a solution for their allegiance. Which camp would they put them into? Would they be a neutral faction? What would they do with all of Lordaeron and the story from Warcraft 3? Answers to this all lead to this conclusion.

The Ogres did what in EK now? Aside from the Ogres allied with the Dark Horde or the Twilight Hammer and those found in zones added in Cataclysm, only the following Ogre clans were from EK: Splinter First, Mosh'ogg, Dustbelcher, Deadwing, Crushridge, Boulderfist and Dreadmaul.

Splinter First controlled a cave and a tiny area around it in Duskwood. Mosh'ogg control(led) a tiny ruin southeast from Grom'gol Base Camp and a cave south from Zul'Gurub. They also were an enemy of the Horde and ambushed their caravans. Dustbelcher hold few tiny outposts in the Badlands. They betrayed the Horde prior to/at the start of Vanilla. Deadwing control a tiny portion of Deadwind Pass, which in itself is one of the tiniest zone in WoW. Crushridge control the ruins of Alterac city. Boulderfist control 1/3rd of Stromgarde and few caves in Arathi Highlands. They also allied themselves with Witherbark. The purpose of that Alliance being the destruction of Hammerfell, an Orc outpost. Dreadmaul control maybe 1/10th of Blasted Lands, with two outposts. Also betrayed the Horde prior to/at the start of Vanilla.

Almost all of these clans made themselves into the enemies of the Horde. And even if you combined all of their land together, they'd control an area smaller than just Tirisfal. Spread among over half a dozen zones, making them easy targets for the Horde's enemies and offering low strategic value.

The Horde IS a fractured force though. The members all maintain separate armies that are loosely coordinated when there is need. Compare that to the Alliance where nearly every force is racially integrated. All the alliance races have multiple members in e.g. SI:7 or the 7th Legion; only the town guards are not integrated. Meanwhile the Horde essentially fields separates forces that fight together.

The Horde does have multi-racial forces. Like the Shattered Hand, which is the spy/covert actions group. Kor'kron is multi-racial now. Horde Expedition was multi-racial. And Horde isn't "loosely" coordinated when there is need. Horde is very strictly coordinated by the Warchief when there is need, because that's the structure of the Horde.

[Dreknar20]

It was a mutual win from both of them more so Sylvanas who was effectively the leader of the Horde on the EK.

pretty much

Geopolitical advantages to a military alliance