i dont get the opposition to parsing in FFXIV

[Zabatakis]

In a way, that's kind of what the commendations are meant to be for

Well, sorta. They let you know when you did good but not so much when you did poor. I am always for more expansion of Hall of the Novice too, generally guilds and friends are meant to fill the role of teaching new people I think but it never hurts to have options

[Resiak]

World of warcraft turned out to be a really interesting phenomenon. On one hand, it took a really niche genre, and turned it into one of the biggest things in gaming. On the other hand, I'm starting to to come to the conclusion that it also single-handedly destroyed the genre.

The mmo was supposed to be the next extension of the table top rpg. Meridian 59, ultima online, the original neverwinter nights, and finally eq where all developed by former d & d players that wanted to bring their table top experiences to the virtual world. They where trying to give us worlds where we can explore, go on adventures, and lose ourselves. We could make friends, join guilds, and adventure together. This is why I fell in love with eq way back when.

Wow turned this on its head. Wow is like an arcade version of an mmo. It sacrificed the world and the immersion. By opening up the game to mods, they themselves had to figure out how to constantly push the players. They had to develop with the mindset that everyone is using boss mods, threat meters, healing mods, and all kinds of other tools. The game became all about numbers. By the time cata came out, the immersion was gone. The damage was done. Mmos kept trying to chase wows success. So they kept trying to create theme park mmos like wow. And they kept failing. Wow was an anomaly. These developers didn't understand we needed different experiences. Not wow copies with a gimmick thrown in.

Final fantasy is still a bit too much of a wow type game, but I feel like yoshi p and crew understand a bit better. Their trying to create an experience. Their trying to draw us into their world. Someone else said that the Japanese prefer cooperation and community over competition. This is where final fantasy 14 is at. The developers have spoken against supporting mods and damage meters. They turn a blind eye to parsers, but they still don't want them being used in game to harass. This is what I love about FF. It's an attempt to role back a little of the damage wow did. It's an attempt to return to a game more about adventure and immersion. There are games out there that offer the kind of feedback you are looking for. I left wow because I had grown past the days of needing to analyze logs , and figuring out how to squeeze out 10k more dps. I still research my rotations. But thats me. The only thing i care about when I join a duty is are we going to clear it or not.

And no matter how bad the tank is. How bad the healer is, how bad the dps do, I can probably count on one hand the number of times I didn't end up completing a duty in the last couple months.

[papajohn4]

Let me tell you a story about parsers, and why I hate them.

Nidhogg EX farm party for the mount, everything is going well, one of the best farm parties I've had for this trial (those who farmed him know what I'm talking about, 75% of "farm parties" for Nidhogg disband rather quickly...). After the 2nd successful clear (no wipes whatsoever, not even close), I, a bard, gets kicked by the little shit leader, no freaking reason given. At first I thought he had just disbanded the party, for some reason, but I check the party finder, and the party is up there, minus me. I try to join back in, thinking he might have kicked me by mistake, or maybe the game did.... nope, can't join the party, because Mister Parser decided not only to kick me, but to blacklist me on top of it, preventing me from rejoining the party and giving him a piece of my mind.

Now here's the thing, before you think "LOL, maybe u just suxxorz".

I'm a pretty good bard, usually in the top 25% on FFlogs, I play my songs (which, after seeing other bards play, seems pretty fucking rare), I even Paean the Warriors, sometimes even when they don't use macros to warn me they'll need it soon. I also actually dodge what can be dodged, do what needs to be done (like meteors during Diabolos), and very rarely die from stupid shit. In short, I may not be the best of the best, but I think I'm better than the average bard.

And yet, even in a party where EVERYTHING IS GOING FINE, you'll sometimes have this freaking Parser Nazi that looks at the logs, spots the "weakest link", and either unceremoniously kicks him, or starts berating him and giving him shit, just because his/her damage is the lowest amongst the damage dealers.

There are a couple of problems with this attitude. First, that fucking number doesn't tell you the whole story. It doesn't tell you if I've played my songs, avoided shit, stood in some shit to save the party, switched targets to kills some adds that everyone else is ignoring, etc. If I stand in a meteor during Diabolos, and I'm standing too far from the boss to keep attacking, my dps drops to freaking 0 (except dots) for a good couple of seconds. Does that mean I'm a bad player? Not according to any sane person. But according to those Parser-is-God types of players, yes, yes it does in fact make me a bad player, because my fucking stupid out-of-context-number-that-doesn't-measure-everything went down, and that's all that matters to them.

Second, some classes naturally deal more damage than others. So kicking someone because his dps is too low compared to the rest of the group, which is made up of different classes, is completely dumb. But again, some dumb fuck will only bother to look at a single number out of context, deciding who is worthy of being grouped with him, and who isn't, based on that single number.

You're not getting a built-in parser because some of the people who want one would use it (and already do use it, ACT), in the worst possible way imaginable.

Yes, I know it sucks to have to carry a dragoon who, for the entire run, never uses Heavy Thrust, but I'd rather carry a bad player than have to deal with an elitist Parser worshipper any day of the week. In some cases, you can actually give some advice to the bad player (I know, not always, "u don't pay mah subz"), but in my vast experience with MMOs, you'll NEVER be able to turn a prick into a decent human being.

Thats the problem... and the next time in order to avoid such situation you will ignore some mechanics, you will rarely play songs and eventually you will stop being a team player and become a DPS number..

this is what happening in wow now.. people are only care for their DPS ignoring mechanics, especially in dungeons and lfr/normal raids... thats why i dont play a healer either... because 50% of my job is to save the dps from shit rather than healing unavoidable damage

[MonsieuRoberts]

People are afraid that they'll have a bar to perform at or above, which is an unfamiliar and dreadful concept in MMOs other than WoW.

Additionally, WoW is the last of its kind, the ultra competitive super customizable nitty-gritty datamined theoreycrafting parse driven raiding MMO. Other MMOs don't seem to be tackling that market or trying to replicate that kind of experience. Recount and parsing to specifics will just reinforce the kind of behaviours found in WoW's raiding scene, and I think a lot of people aren't interested in that, devs included.

They wanna make sure the game is still a game, if that makes sense.

[papajohn4]

People are afraid that they'll have a bar to perform at or above, which is an unfamiliar and dreadful concept in MMOs other than WoW.

Additionally, WoW is the last of its kind, the ultra competitive super customizable nitty-gritty datamined theoreycrafting parse driven raiding MMO. Other MMOs don't seem to be tackling that market or trying to replicate that kind of experience. Recount and parsing to specifics will just reinforce the kind of behaviours found in WoW's raiding scene, and I think a lot of people aren't interested in that, devs included.

They wanna make sure the game is still a game, if that makes sense.

I wouldnt use the word "afraid" but rather the word "they dont find it fun". As many people said here, its not the fear of underperforming, but the fact that a meter creates a "competition" among the team players and many people dont find it fun..

Yes there are also people who afraid of dps meters but they are not the majority in my opinion.

[Deleted]

I want parses so I can see my own performance, don't really care about others, I've never even linked recount in chat in WoW unless someone asked for it. I find lower tier PvE more interesting when I can clearly see my flaws and what I did well with a tangible way to improve upon it. One of the only reasons I could enjoy LFR was because I was essentially battling against my own ghost, like time trials in a racing game, ever inching ahead. It's a shame but I can't have the thing I like without other people having something they dislike, and it is something I can live without if I really have to.

[Gandrake]

People aren't opposed to parsing, they're opposed to people like you acting like this in chat

"i think our damage might be too low to do last boss"

after wiping 3 times "welllll something has to change. why do you keep dying there?" vote abandon motioned lol

yeah man im SUCH an asshole. i sure told that guy how shit his dps was and to uninstall the game man

oh wait... no i didnt

No, it's you. Not them.

At any rate, parsing is not needed to help low-DPS players. Being considerate, patient, and generally not an asshole, however, goes a lot further than just spamming party chat with numbers. Let's be honest, @OP, you're just wanting to wave your e-peen around. Leave that stuff in WoW.

well if we're being honest here, i play multiple classes at a level suitable for any content. it's not exactly a secret that i am better than most players. pointing out that i am better is like saying red lobster is better than mcdonalds. it's fairly apparent, but thank you captain obvious.

but i probably did 700 dps on my warrior with doman gear.... so you're gonna have to try a little bit harder than posting irrelevant tripe to convince me that I am a problem.

Not if the boss dies, no.

well i dont feel like sharing my drops with someone doing less than half my dps when they could easily be doing much more dps as we have very similar gear. if they were just riding on my coattails that would be fine. but to have me carry you and then try to steal opportunities from me at the same time? Nah fuck that. People act like you're asking them to sign over an arm and a leg to meet 90th percentile standards when you say stuff like that when in reality you really just want to play the game with people who are actually trying.

And thankfully, most people do.

But as this thread as evidence of such, you can't trust the players to not be toxic with those tools

well that's a pretty baseless assumption

the whole thing that sparked the posting of this thread was a bard doing half my dps with similar item level clearly thinking he was contributing a lot more than that. I think people should know where they stand before talking shit (or further deluding themselves into believing some stupid thought) even becomes a thought in their head by making an ingame parser.

[Toppy]

"i think our damage might be too low to do last boss"

after wiping 3 times "welllll something has to change. why do you keep dying there?" vote abandon motioned lol

yeah man im SUCH an asshole. i sure told that guy how shit his dps was and to uninstall the game man

oh wait... no i didnt



well if we're being honest here, i play multiple classes at a level suitable for any content. it's not exactly a secret that i am better than most players. pointing out that i am better is like saying red lobster is better than mcdonalds. it's fairly apparent, but thank you captain obvious.

but i probably did 700 dps on my warrior with doman gear.... so you're gonna have to try a little bit harder than posting irrelevant tripe to convince me that I am a problem.



well i dont feel like sharing my drops with someone doing less than half my dps when they could easily be doing much more dps as we have very similar gear. if they were just riding on my coattails that would be fine. but to have me carry you and then try to steal opportunities from me at the same time? Nah fuck that. People act like you're asking them to sign over an arm and a leg to meet 90th percentile standards when you say stuff like that when in reality you really just want to play the game with people who are actually trying.

And thankfully, most people do.



well that's a pretty baseless assumption

the whole thing that sparked the posting of this thread was a bard doing half my dps with similar item level clearly thinking he was contributing a lot more than that. I think people should know where they stand before talking shit (or further deluding themselves into believing some stupid thought) even becomes a thought in their head by making an ingame parser.

You really are a good example of why we dont need parsers. All it does is breed negativity and doesnt "fix" any issues that may be associated with people doing poorly. People are going to do poorly parser or not, and its currently is not hard at all to tell who isn't doing as well.

How is it hurting you? Like you do a dungeon and one of the DPS is underperforming. What are you going to do? Complain at them, which will slow the group? Boot them which will slow the group? If you're in your own static group you already know who isnt doing that well since its simply not hard to tell if you know what you're doing.

All parsers do is make for bad communities that no one wants to be a part of, and stroke the e-peen of people with already inflated egos.

[Gandrake]

i used to do shit dps once upon a time. like... really shit dps. we all did at some point.

you know why i got better? because someone told me my dps was shit and people didn't want to play with me and i wanted to play the game. you know why i was doing shit dps? because i never read anything and i was just hitting the buttons that did cool effects.

You really are a good example of why we dont need parsers. All it does is breed negativity and doesnt "fix" any issues that may be associated with people doing poorly.

I strongly disagree

if I am doing 1500 DPS and you are doing 700 dps and its clear you should easily be able to do 1100 and it's easy to replace you with a dps that will do 1500-2000+ DPS and the group kicks you for your lack of effort then it will teach you not to take your spot in a group for granted.

For a group of people who think the world owes them nothing there sure are a lot of you who feel entitled to not be doing your job in a group and to be rewarded for it.

[Dwill]

All parsers do is make for bad communities that no one wants to be a part of, and stroke the e-peen of people with already inflated egos.

That's actually not true whatsoever and is just an ignorant point of view. I know quite a few people who actually parse to better themselves on a per-encounter basis, people who aren't jerks, people with over-inflated ego or whatever name/insult(the hypocrisy here is quite hilarious) the anti-parser crowd. Nevermind the fact that parsers are also used for thingssuch as determining stats weights, accuracy caps and the likes which is something which values can't really be denied.


You're pretty much parroting the same worthless and debunked arguments that people have been saying for years out of hypothetical, grossly over-exaggerated and/or made up scenarios.

[Katchii]

"i think our damage might be too low to do last boss"

after wiping 3 times "welllll something has to change. why do you keep dying there?" vote abandon motioned lol

yeah man im SUCH an asshole. i sure told that guy how shit his dps was and to uninstall the game man

oh wait... no i didnt.

You're OP suggests you did not approach it in such an inocuous manner.

the most common excuse is harassment but man i can tell you i really dont need a parser to tell that someone is doing really low damage and to be annoyed by it. i mean damn lol shouldn't we be telling Dragoons their AoE DPS is trash because they are spamming ring of thorns since they never noticed doom spike has a potency of 160? You'd kick a tank or healer without hesitation for not being able to fulfill the duty they queued as... why wouldn't you kick a DPS for the same thing?

is what it really boils down to that being a dps is a "safe zone" for poor performance in spite of taking up the most critical role in a group's success?

I mean... I can't help but laugh when there is a dps problem and I am doing 50% damage and the other bard passive aggressively asks me why I am using foes then motions a vote abandon when I tell him "because it's free damage". After dragging all 700 of his dps through sohm al this fucking boo boo ass bitch midget motherfucker is going to act like he was doing 1700 dps and I was doing 300? When he can't even read a tooltip?

and i'm not even allowed to tell him how bad his damage really was.

now in this scenario everyone has wasted their time because nobody had the balls to kick the McShitDPS Supreme. But if your healer or tank was doing that bad of a job they would have been kicked so much sooner.

Based on your post, you're an asshole. Whether you acted like this in your group is something I can't confirm, but I highly doubt that with a post like this you were as civil as you're making yourself out to be.

[Deleted]

the most common excuse is harassment but man i can tell you i really dont need a parser to tell that someone is doing really low damage and to be annoyed by it. i mean damn lol shouldn't we be telling Dragoons their AoE DPS is trash because they are spamming ring of thorns since they never noticed doom spike has a potency of 160? You'd kick a tank or healer without hesitation for not being able to fulfill the duty they queued as... why wouldn't you kick a DPS for the same thing?

is what it really boils down to that being a dps is a "safe zone" for poor performance in spite of taking up the most critical role in a group's success?

I mean... I can't help but laugh when there is a dps problem and I am doing 50% damage and the other bard passive aggressively asks me why I am using foes then motions a vote abandon when I tell him "because it's free damage". After dragging all 700 of his dps through sohm al this fucking boo boo ass bitch midget motherfucker is going to act like he was doing 1700 dps and I was doing 300? When he can't even read a tooltip?

and i'm not even allowed to tell him how bad his damage really was.

now in this scenario everyone has wasted their time because nobody had the balls to kick the McShitDPS Supreme. But if your healer or tank was doing that bad of a job they would have been kicked so much sooner.

The real issue isn't that parsing isn't allowed in FFXIV but rather that you need a parser to tell wether a guy in your group is good or bad. It shows how lacking the game is in the gameplay department.

[Scufflegrit]

People act like you're asking them to sign over an arm and a leg to meet 90th percentile standards when you say stuff like that when in reality you really just want to play the game with people who are actually trying.

I don't think you understand how percentiles work if you think the majority of people achieving a 90% performance rating in anything should be the norm.

Also:

Queue up for random content with random people.
Get random results with aforementioned random people in aforementioned random content.
Complain when you get random results.
Flawless logic.

[Azmoden]

The real issue isn't that parsing isn't allowed in FFXIV but rather that you need a parser to tell wether a guy in your group is good or bad. It shows how lacking the game is in the gameplay department.

I fail to see the correlation between not being able to tell if a guy is good or not, and lacking gameplay...

[TheWindWalker]

To be perfectly honest, I can live with someone having a negative view of parsers if, and only if, they agree with me that "it's not that big a deal if you never use Hot Shot, period."

[Gandrake]

You're OP suggests you did not approach it in such an inocuous manner.

well what you say and what you do are two very different things. Just because you want to slap your boss until he can't stand doesn't mean you go and do it.

furthermore you have misconstrued the context of the post. many of you have become so defensive that you fail to realize that i was not angry with this player for doing awful damage; no, I became irate because I just wasted my time with a bumbling group of morons and one of them happened to ask me why I was using foes and when answered, motioned a vote abandon as if whatever I just said was stupid.

People love it when they come in last boss. ez pz roulette. why would you vote abandon? Oh because he was doing 700 dps and don't want leaver penalty or to be kicked. Better stop someone else in party from finishing the dungeon instead of just leaving because everything is about him and his awful DPS.

I should have motioned to kick him from party before we even got to the second boss lol

[Toppy]

That's actually not true whatsoever and is just an ignorant point of view. I know quite a few people who actually parse to better themselves on a per-encounter basis, people who aren't jerks, people with over-inflated ego or whatever name/insult(the hypocrisy here is quite hilarious) the anti-parser crowd. Nevermind the fact that parsers are also used for thingssuch as determining stats weights, accuracy caps and the likes which is something which values can't really be denied.


You're pretty much parroting the same worthless and debunked arguments that people have been saying for years out of hypothetical, grossly over-exaggerated and/or made up scenarios.

That'd be true in other MMO, but the lack of diversity in gear in FFXIV makes it so that 90% of the time the better gear will be the one with higher ilvl. Not to mention its already not hard to tell what secondaries are best. Hell, you dont need a parser to tell how good you're doing. For example on my monk I know what mistakes I make and how I need to better myself going forward. You dont need a parser to tell yourself if you're doing well or not. Saying you need a parser is insulting to player intelligence.

The vast majority of players would use it to just shit on others, just like in other MMO that have them.

What will having a parser do, that we can't already do?

- - - Updated - - -

The real issue isn't that parsing isn't allowed in FFXIV but rather that you need a parser to tell wether a guy in your group is good or bad. It shows how lacking the game is in the gameplay department.

It really isnt hard to tell if you know much about the game.

[Katchii]

well what you say and what you do are two very different things. Just because you want to slap your boss until he can't stand doesn't mean you go and do it.

furthermore you have misconstrued the context of the post. many of you have become so defensive that you fail to realize that i was not angry with this player for doing awful damage; no, I became irate because I just wasted my time with a bumbling group of morons and one of them happened to ask me why I was using foes and when answered, motioned a vote abandon as if whatever I just said was stupid.

People love it when they come in last boss. ez pz roulette. why would you vote abandon? Oh because he was doing 700 dps and don't want leaver penalty or to be kicked. Better stop someone else in party from finishing the dungeon instead of just leaving because everything is about him and his awful DPS.

I should have motioned to kick him from party before we even got to the second boss lol

I agree with the bolded.

Many of us are defensive because the language and behavior you projected in your OP is something that we've actually seen happen. The type of aggressive and offensive language you used in your OP is exactly what we don't want to see in group chat.

[Gandrake]

I think I've only been mean to someone like that in chat once. But I think he deserved it. His head was so far up his ass anyway it clearly wasn't bothering him. This was mostly a vent post that also touches on the subject of the lack of accountability in the damage role.

I don't think you understand how percentiles work if you think the majority of people achieving a 90% performance rating in anything should be the norm.

If your log was in the 90th percentile, it means you did not rank. But it also means your dps was not entirely dissimilar from someone who has ranked.

crazy complicated my dude

[Toppy]

I think I've only been mean to someone like that in chat once. But I think he deserved it. His head was so far up his ass anyway it clearly wasn't bothering him. This was mostly a vent post that also touches on the subject of the lack of accountability in the damage role.



If your log was in the 90th percentile, it means you did not rank. But it also means your dps was not entirely dissimilar from someone who has ranked.

crazy complicated my dude

Case and point: If the game had a parser, do you think that situation would have changed at all?