Legion - Outlaw Discussion

[Deleted]

Talking outlaw Xanatu is the player I trust most as he raidied stubborn on the spec for longest time of the posters I know

[ymirsson]

I never undestand complaints about energy costs of single builder abilities. If its about the number of button presses per minute, who cares?
If its about the damage, that could also be solved by increasing the damage of the ability.
And feeling slow? Outside of AR SS always was costly

[shrunken]

Talking outlaw Xanatu is the player I trust most as he raidied stubborn on the spec for longest time of the posters I know

A lot of Outlaw rogues didn't have to swap specs for progression, and cleared before nerfs. Most players don't bother to post, but you should check parses. There are a lot more experienced Outlaw rogues than forum representation indicates. You'd get better feedback just having a 1 on 1 in game.

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I never undestand complaints about energy costs of single builder abilities. If its about the number of button presses per minute, who cares?
If its about the damage, that could also be solved by increasing the damage of the ability.
And feeling slow? Outside of AR SS always was costly

I think most people's complaints about energy cost are centered around the times when rolls are bad and you keep pulling single buff rolls. The spec does feel in a rut at those moments, and as soon as your gear is in a place where you can't justify playing Swordmaster anymore (for people using SM this happens when they get bracers to drop) those ruts can feel worse since you're proc'ing fewer extra saber slashes and fewer filler pistol shot procs.

Still, when the rolls are functional the spec flows just fine. Getting functional rolls is less painful now than it was prior to 7.2, but sadly that's going to be changing with the patch once again.

[Deleted]

when the rolls are functional the spec flows just fine.

True

Getting functional rolls is less painful now than it was prior to 7.2,

less painfull, true. But low TB uptime is still punishing in terms of DPS... on the other hand, gameplay is really improved now with less "1 buff constant reroll period"

but sadly that's going to be changing with the patch once again.

Soooo sad : /

[Deleted]

I never undestand complaints about energy costs of single builder abilities. If its about the number of button presses per minute, who cares?
If its about the damage, that could also be solved by increasing the damage of the ability.
And feeling slow? Outside of AR SS always was costly

I think it's just different mentality. After playing assa seeing your energy bar filling up to 40% before you SS feels very clunky and then suddenly... BDGHHH, something procced you are wasting energy and is GCD capped pumping out finishers. Wasting resource is frustrating.

I also find it quite hilarious to press nothing else but MFD-RT on some trash.

[Charlooo]

I just got bracers but on average I am doing less damage then Shoulders+Ring. I am still getting used to using quickdraw and not pressing ghostly strike but just wondering if anyone can do a quick rundown of how to use bracers to the max. My opener also feels clunky as hell. Do I use between the eyes even when I am rerolling? or do I roll first. Its just so weird not using opportunity procs when I am energy starved because between the eyes is coming up.

[Deleted]

I just got bracers but on average I am doing less damage then Shoulders+Ring. I am still getting used to using quickdraw and not pressing ghostly strike but just wondering if anyone can do a quick rundown of how to use bracers to the max. My opener also feels clunky as hell. Do I use between the eyes even when I am rerolling? or do I roll first. Its just so weird not using opportunity procs when I am energy starved because between the eyes is coming up.

Although BB is definitely worth saving if BtE is coming up in the next few seconds, I only use BtE while rerolling if the current energy regen allows for it. If I'm already starved the cost will slow down the reroll further, possibly costing several BtE casts in the long run. With Shoulders+Wrists it's really crucial to get to those TB rolls quickly.

Wrists do take some getting used to, but as long as you have good WA's or the likes you will get a feel for it eventually.

I've got them for a while but it still gets pretty hectic at times. TB+AR+CotDB+elissande's pink bubble buff = omgwtfbbq what is even happening.

[Xanatu]

A lot of Outlaw rogues didn't have to swap specs for progression, and cleared before nerfs. Most players don't bother to post, but you should check parses. There are a lot more experienced Outlaw rogues than forum representation indicates. You'd get better feedback just having a 1 on 1 in game.

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I think most people's complaints about energy cost are centered around the times when rolls are bad and you keep pulling single buff rolls. The spec does feel in a rut at those moments, and as soon as your gear is in a place where you can't justify playing Swordmaster anymore (for people using SM this happens when they get bracers to drop) those ruts can feel worse since you're proc'ing fewer extra saber slashes and fewer filler pistol shot procs.

Still, when the rolls are functional the spec flows just fine. Getting functional rolls is less painful now than it was prior to 7.2, but sadly that's going to be changing with the patch once again.

Not that I'm a good example because I gave up and barely play outlaw right now, but I don't know that a "lot" of outlaw rogues stuck with it. I was the only one without bracers doing so and only the 10th outlaw rogue to kill auger when we got our kill (which was like 150 overall world). I think it was an extreme minority using the spec and probably only folks with bracers + shoulders, which I never got until well after progression was over.

[shrunken]

Not that I'm a good example because I gave up and barely play outlaw

Now that's sorted out.

*You should have just worn Shoulders + Boots if you didn't have bracers. They sim within +/- 0.2% of Shoulders + Bracers, and there are a litany of rogues on logs wearing Shoulders + Boots that are parsing higher than you have on any single fight. You're free to verify either claim with SimC & a visit to Warcraftlogs. Ciao.

[Xanatu]

Now that's sorted out.

*You should have just worn Shoulders + Boots if you didn't have bracers. They sim within +/- 0.2% of Shoulders + Bracers, and there are a litany of rogues on logs wearing Shoulders + Boots that are parsing higher than you have on any single fight. You're free to verify either claim with SimC & a visit to Warcraftlogs. Ciao.

I'm not sure why you're trying to be an asshole here but I'm sure you can tell from looking at my logs (since, you did look at them apparently) that my legendaries for all of progression in 7.1.5 were KJs burning wrath and insignia. So, that's great advice, but I didn't have them.

The personal shots at me aside, I don't think it's really debatable that outlaw without legendary shoulders + boots/wrists was useful. No one was playing it on the hard fights. My legendary-less self swapped to assassination and gained 100k DPS in ~10 days without any significant paragon power. Now that the last 3 fights don't have DPS checks anymore, sure, you can play whatever, but when Star Auger was destroying guilds because of the tight DPS check, outlaw's shitty DPS was not really acceptable.

[Charlooo]

Now that's sorted out.

*You should have just worn Shoulders + Boots if you didn't have bracers. They sim within +/- 0.2% of Shoulders + Bracers, and there are a litany of rogues on logs wearing Shoulders + Boots that are parsing higher than you have on any single fight. You're free to verify either claim with SimC & a visit to Warcraftlogs. Ciao.

If I am more used to shoulders/ring would you recommend boots? I've had them for awhile but because I got lucky with 925 boots I switched to ring as I had some bad ones. Ive now got 2 925 rings both with vers. I still parse 95+ on mythic with decent rolls but my average is a bit lacking compared to the top top rogues. Doesn't help that my guild is pretty casual and only on Elisande atm.

[shrunken]

If I am more used to shoulders/ring would you recommend boots? I've had them for awhile but because I got lucky with 925 boots I switched to ring as I had some bad ones. Ive now got 2 925 rings both with vers. I still parse 95+ on mythic with decent rolls but my average is a bit lacking compared to the top top rogues. Doesn't help that my guild is pretty casual and only on Elisande atm.

I think it's good to master all the playstyles (Shoulders+Bracer, Shoulders+Boot, Shoulders+Ring, Shoulders+Gloves are the relevant equip sets), but the boots require less adjustment to play with and so they are undeniably easier to maximize. Take Hit & Run, your sprints will pair with your MFD, it's pretty self explanatory. You can play either Ghostly or Swordmaster (take SM if you feel too energy starved taking Ghostly).

Shoulders+Boots will do more damage than Shoulders+Ring on single target with comparable rolls, since that's the root of what you're asking. Boots have added advantage for people playing offspec outlaw in that they provide some boost in cleave situations as well, so if you're in a situation where you only have a couple of Outlaw legendaries and can't pick whatever you'd like for a fight, boots can cover a little more variety of situation.

*You'll still want to use ring for a few fights if you're trying to parse.

[Charlooo]

Yea I agree I am comfortable with everything apart from the bracers combo. Just so used to playing with ghostly strike. Literally got bracers last. Gonna experiment anyway, cheers for advice.

[shrunken]

Yea I agree I am comfortable with everything apart from the bracers combo. Just so used to playing with ghostly strike. Literally got bracers last. Gonna experiment anyway, cheers for advice.

Can always use the bracers on your heroic AP runs to practice.

[Deleted]

Yea I agree I am comfortable with everything apart from the bracers combo. Just so used to playing with ghostly strike. Literally got bracers last. Gonna experiment anyway, cheers for advice.

I'm in the same boat with you (got bracers last and guild is on Elisande) and used boots extensively before then since they were my 3rd legendary and frankly I could not recommend using boots over bracers except on the few Nighthold bosses that prop up boots with special mechanics (Elisande, Gul'Dan, Chronomatic) even if sims would indicate them being somewhat close. Dps went up by a lot using bracers, especially on bosses which are mainly single target and don't have these special mechanics. Bracers are not too hard to use. Some weakauras help.

[shrunken]

I'm in the same boat with you (got bracers last and guild is on Elisande) and used boots extensively before then since they were my 3rd legendary and frankly I could not recommend using boots over bracers except on the few Nighthold bosses that prop up boots with special mechanics (Elisande, Gul'Dan, Chronomatic) even if sims would indicate them being somewhat close. Dps went up by a lot using bracers, especially on bosses which are mainly single target and don't have these special mechanics. Bracers are not too hard to use. Some weakauras help.

There are people all over the logs on every fight doing very comparable dps with both boots & bracers. There's too many other variables, particularly with Outlaw, to say that dps "went up a lot" when you switched between 2 legendaries that average about a 0.2% dps difference. The math just isn't there, and in anecdotally I don't see it in the gameplay either. I've had all Outlaw legendaries for quite some time. My parses with boots & with bracers are very close to the margin SimC sets as the difference between them. I've overtaken my record parses with bracers and then again with boots. They're two of the closest legendaries in the game, so long as you're adjusting talents.

*It's not just fights like Elisande, though I do agree that fight's also a good example of where you can maximize the boots. But even on Star Augur the top 100 have plenty of boot parses despite that going against prevailing wisdom.

[Xanatu]

There are people all over the logs on every fight doing very comparable dps with both boots & bracers. There's too many other variables, particularly with Outlaw, to say that dps "went up a lot" when you switched between 2 legendaries that average about a 0.2% dps difference. The math just isn't there, and in anecdotally I don't see it in the gameplay either. I've had all Outlaw legendaries for quite some time. My parses with boots & with bracers are very close to the margin SimC sets as the difference between them. I've overtaken my record parses with bracers and then again with boots. They're two of the closest legendaries in the game, so long as you're adjusting talents.

*It's not just fights like Elisande, though I do agree that fight's also a good example of where you can maximize the boots. But even on Star Augur the top 100 have plenty of boot parses despite that going against prevailing wisdom.

The top 100 outlaw parses on star auger have 5 people using boots.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ue&spec=Outlaw

Krosus has 1

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ue&spec=Outlaw

Elisande has a few more at 18 since it has more cleave

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ue&spec=Outlaw

Tel'arn has 4

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ue&spec=Outlaw

You're just wrong about this. Bracers dominate the ranks. Boots aren't bad but they are NOT particularly close on a pull to pull basis.

[shrunken]

You're just wrong about this. Bracers dominate the ranks. Boots aren't bad but they are NOT particularly close on a pull to pull basis.

I never argued that there weren't *significantly* more people using bracers. For one, it's been the prevailing wisdom to use them for 3/4 of a year now. But, on Star Augur for example, the #5 & #12 parses are both boots. It's not a situation where there are 2 guys using boots and they both barely grace the top 500.

Quit trying to re-characterize my point into something you think you can cope with. Five people parsing high in the top 100 in spite of the very rote suggestion that it's bracers or bust (which is all the Outlaw community really has to offer in terms of theorycraft btw) is plenty to prove the point.

*In fact, you should probably stick to a different topic. You've been back to Outlaw with Shoulders+Bracers for almost a month now and aren't even doing enough damage to be pointed to as an example. Your feedback on the official forums since early in the expansion has also been in extreme disservice to the spec.

[Xanatu]

I never argued that there weren't *significantly* more people using bracers. For one, it's been the prevailing wisdom to use them for 3/4 of a year now. But, on Star Augur for example, the #5 & #12 parses are both boots. It's not a situation where there are 2 guys using boots and they both barely grace the top 500.

Quit trying to re-characterize my point into something you think you can cope with. Five people parsing high in the top 100 in spite of the very rote suggestion that it's bracers or bust (which is all the Outlaw community really has to offer in terms of theorycraft btw) is plenty to prove the point.

*In fact, you should probably stick to a different topic. You've been back to Outlaw with Shoulders+Bracers for almost a month now and aren't even doing enough damage to be pointed to as an example.

I don't play outlaw in mythic anymore; since you're clearly looking at my logs you can see I did 1 raid night of 7 bosses. I'm not sure why you're being such an unpleasant asshole about this whole thing. If you look at the logs of the 2 competitive boot parses, you'll see that they both feature multiple 6-buffs, which is nothing but luck, and something that a rogue using bracers would use to shoot even higher up. They're not horrible but they also aren't particularly competitive in a single-target situation. Any combination of legendaries looks good when you 6-buff twice.

[shrunken]

If you look at the logs of the 2 competitive boot parses, you'll see that they both feature multiple 6-buffs,

As do many of the highest parses in the top 100 regardless of gear. I'm not being an asshole, but I won't let you decide what the parameters of my own talking point are, especially when you stopped being relevant to the topic of the thread quite a long time ago.

*In fact, the very first rogue bracer rogue that I clicked on in the top 20 has three 6-buff rolls, and is parsing below 1 pair of boots with two 6-buffs to his parse. You can chase your tail all day on this subject, but the math has been pretty straight forward both in Sims & in practice for quite some time. When paired with the shoulders, these are two of the closest legendaries in the game. By the math, their parity is very close to Affliction's top few legendaries in terms of equality (notable since in the Aff community, this is a boon to the spec).