Why do YOU think Healthcare is a Right and not a Privilege?

[Teleros]

huh, you learn something new everyday. somehow i feel who is number 1 in the world when it comes to charity.

I should say it's not just the Brits (including the diaspora such as in the USA etc) of course. Here's a nice pic:



Africans love their church organisations and such as well for example, much more so than the British diaspora. Obviously it's all broad brush strokes, but to give a hypothetical example, you could probably fund a lot of healthcare costs in much of Africa by getting the churches to pay for it via donations etc, simply because of how many people go to them. The Anglosphere (and other) figures would probably be higher were it not for the large welfare states we have, which as many have noted in the past, tend to depress levels of civic engagement ("let's help the neighbours" becomes "it's the government's job", basically).

Still, interesting reading.

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Some interesting articles on the cost of healthcare:

US healthcare sans insurance: https://mises.org/blog/how-governmen...at-can-be-done
Lawsuits: https://www.jacksonhealthcare.com/me...ummary-release
Obama adviser on costs: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-s...care-cost-so-m
Number of workdays to buy healthcare: https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisco...e-1958-vs-2012
Follow-up on last one: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-58-3-workdays

Well worth a read IMHO. It's all rather US-centric, but does show how messed up the US healthcare system is, with or without Obamacare.

[Nnyco]

just look at america, 3-6k $ for a visit at the hospital

[kail]

translation: im right, im euro therefore i am right. and here is a bullshit graph to back it up lol.

this is just sad. how can a human be so dense? mortality rates = best care? lol what in the world. who pioneered those techniques you are using? i guess according to you we all should be more like cameroon.

How would you measure the quality of healthcare?

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just look at america, 3-6k $ for a visit at the hospital

To get pain killers.

<---living proof

[Rustedsaint]

I think it's a right since no one should die from a treatable illness or go intro debt cause some psycho decides to shoot you.(whatever happen to that one guy who was shot in the head but had a medical bill of like 2 mil.)
Thou we do need better handling on healthcare because of people who keep abusing it for various reasons.

[Deleted]

How is it even possible that some people can believe its a right?

Think of it this way.. if it was a right, it would mean a person trained in the medical field would have to help you for free? How is that different from slavery again?

[Deleted]

I have been born in a country where it has been a "right" my entire life (36 now).. I can't imagine people not getting it.. it is a fundamental principle of our social security system. I learned pretty late (in my early twenties) that this was not something that was as logical in the US. I have always found this very odd for a civilized country. I understood that it was a different situation in third world countries but could not have imagined this to be the case in the USA. You spend so many billions on war efforts and militarization. You guys could still be "the most powerful country in the world" while spending half that budget on social security, education and the environment.

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How is it even possible that some people can believe its a right?

Think of it this way.. if it was a right, it would mean a person trained in the medical field would have to help you for free? How is that different from slavery again?

What? You cannot, at any time, deny medical help to anyone. It is a "right" over here and that principle stands. Of course you will be billed afterwards but everyone is insured. You have better and worse insurance packages but on a basic level, everyone is insured.

When my wife gave birth the total cost of the hospital and the delivery and everything surrounding it was €4200. We got €3700 back from insurance. So we paid €500 from own expense. If we had a step up in insurance package we wouldn't have to pay that €500 extra either, but as she took a 1 person hospital room, that €500 was not covered for us (it would have been in a 2 person room or with a more expensive plan).. The months my wife could not work before the delivery were fully paid by social security (so not from work itself). After the delivery she was home for another 4 months which were also paid out from social security.

Now I have no idea how much a delivery costs in the USA with or without insurance but I am damn happy I live in a country that on a national level cares for each other instead of people only thinking short term gains.

For reference, insurance is €9 / month for the basic version we have. In return you get all the above, high reductions for dental, doctors (a doctor visit is €27 but you get €22 back), hospital, glasses... we got diapers worth €500 as a gift for our newborn as well. Anyway, I am interested in WHY anyone over there would PREFER not to pay €9 a month .. I am pretty sure insurance over there is more expensive anyway, so if everyone was forced to pay, it would be cheaper, like here. Especially with so many people living there.

[Sky High]

because any modern society that tells itself it cares about it's citizens should do the bare minimum to keep them from going bankrupt or dying due to things beyond their control.

[Evangeliste]

Those say it's a privilege... It feels like such a surprising amount of ignorance on their part. Maybe I'm wrong, nice to have an open mind and see why it's the case.
It's proven though that being a right works and in several countries.
If you don't want a country to fall into massive disrepair and to it's knees then you keep the workforce alive and well, not to mention ensure the next generation and workforce are firstly born and well too. Nature of course does it's business but in the end like any beehive, if all the worker bees die in enough throes, they all die eventually.

[kail]

How is it even possible that some people can believe its a right?

Think of it this way.. if it was a right, it would mean a person trained in the medical field would have to help you for free? How is that different from slavery again?

Rights don't automatically equate to free of costs. As I've mentioned before, guns are not free and nobody is claiming that the salesman is infringing on the 2A.

[Deleted]

What? You cannot, at any time, deny medical help to anyone. It is a "right" over here and that principle stands. Of course you will be billed afterwards but everyone is insured. You have better and worse insurance packages but on a basic level, everyone is insured.

When my wife gave birth the total cost of the hospital and the delivery and everything surrounding it was €4200. We got €3700 back from insurance. So we paid €500 from own expense. If we had a step up in insurance package we wouldn't have to pay that €500 extra either, but as she took a 1 person hospital room, that €500 was not covered for us (it would have been in a 2 person room or with a more expensive plan).. The months my wife could not work before the delivery were fully paid by social security (so not from work itself). After the delivery she was home for another 4 months which were also paid out from social security.

Now I have no idea how much a delivery costs in the USA with or without insurance but I am damn happy I live in a country that on a national level cares for each other instead of people only thinking short term gains.

For reference, insurance is €9 / month for the basic version we have. In return you get all the above, high reductions for dental, doctors (a doctor visit is €27 but you get €22 back), hospital, glasses... we got diapers worth €500 as a gift for our newborn as well. Anyway, I am interested in WHY anyone over there would PREFER not to pay €9 a month .. I am pretty sure insurance over there is more expensive anyway, so if everyone was forced to pay, it would be cheaper, like here. Especially with so many people living there.

Ok Im a nurse.. technically, graduated but I dont practice. in any case. my reasoning is that I see a default human as a baby, no skills (no one has to acquire any skills). So assuming everyones a default human, why should we punish those who strive for more?

[Deleted]

Ok Im a nurse.. technically, graduated but I dont practice. in any case. my reasoning is that I see a default human as a baby, no skills (no one has to acquire any skills). So assuming everyones a default human, why should we punish those who strive for more?

I have no idea how that adds or discusses anything I said. I don't even understand the point you are trying to make. Unless you misquoted me and are responding to someone else.

[Feahnor]

To get pain killers.

<---living proof

7€ in France, and you go home with a box of 60 painkillers, and you get reimbursed in three days. If you don't have money (being unemployed, have a really low salary, etc) you pay nothing.

[Sky High]

I have no idea how that adds or discusses anything I said. I don't even understand the point you are trying to make. Unless you misquoted me and are responding to someone else.

it's straight up gibberish is what it is.

[anyaka21]

Personally I think Healthcare is a privilege and not a right.

If you misuse your body you should have to deal with the consequences unless you have purchased protection in the form of insurance.

Also, in ANY civilized country, no hospital is going to turn you away if you have something life threatening that HAS to be taken care of even if you don't have insurance.

Forcing doctors to see patients under universal health care greatly diminishes a doctors will to continue practicing. It also reduces the will of any people who would be willing to undergo 10+ years of education to become a doctor because the limited ability to make good money in the profession.

i'd be pretty surprised if what I say hasn't been said already, but I didn't want to slog thru 37 pages to make sure.

OP is wrong on multiple multiple levels.

1) The thought that all medical issues are patient error is ludicrous. How is being born with Asthma and Allergies patient error. Cancer, getting hit by a drunk driver, rape, etc...So many things proves OP statement as completely BS.

2) While true, no civilized hospital will, but they will definitely release you if you can't pay, and even if you can't pay, they will still bill you for it. Further, when said 'can't pay' person doesn't pay, who pays? People with insurance.

3) In countries where there is universal healthcare, no one is forcing them to "see" patients, its literally what they signed up for, their job description. They just get paid differently than US doctors do. And albiet, they still do make a decent living.


Further, and I think almost most importantly, US healthcare doesn't incentivize doctors to actually cure patients. Drug companies don't make pills to cure diseases, they make pills to treat symptoms and mask symptoms. They make more money from this than they would for a cure. Its much better to have a patient be on a pill(s) for life than it is for a cure.

I'll toss this out as a simple example: I mentioned asthma. Did you know there is a cure for it? Last I read, Britain was going to offer it to all its population. Have you heard about it in the US? To keep this up, they try and make more and more intricate drugs to 'control' your asthma, pills, flonaise, inhalers, epipens, etc... And how much has the cost of epipens gone up in the last 2 years? Why?

I've also mentioned this before in a few previous healthcare threads, the best asthma medicine I've ever taken, Vitamin D. I take 1000ius a day. I'm 50yrs old, suffered from asthma my entire life, been on a rescue inhaler since they were invented. I went thru an inhaler a month for basically 35+ years, with whatever varying meds the doctor perscribed. Lost my health insurance and did some research. I read something about vitamin D. For 3-4 years now, I haven't taken anything else, I've used my rescue inhaler for about 10 puffs in 4 years now.... But you won't hear that from doctors. It basically costs me about $10 per year to control my asthma now.

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How is it even possible that some people can believe its a right?

Think of it this way.. if it was a right, it would mean a person trained in the medical field would have to help you for free? How is that different from slavery again?

I don't think you really realize how illogical that sounds. Doctors get paid differently in different countries with universal healthcare. They'll get paid regardless. Now in the US if someone without insurance goes to the emergency room, and ends up not being able to pay, then the doctor doesn't get paid. That's actually closer akin to slave labor than any other civilized universal healthcare country.

Further, one might actually say that a country not providing healthcare is actually closer to slave labor than a country that does. The country is providing a vital intrinsically needed service. Having a healthier more productive labor force is better for the economy. Not having a healthy productive labor force and especially with the insanely rising costs of it, is actually keeping more and more people into that slave labor catagory.

[petej0]

wrong

while we both agree universal healthcare is nice and should be afforded to everybody we differ in reality. in the real world, people have to go to work, pay taxes so this can be provided. in your world, its magic and doctors magically get paid.

the force is on the taxpayer, but i dont mind, i think it should be FORCED.

Right, that does not mean doctors are forced to take care of you any more then they are now. Under the current system if you have insurance they arent forced to take you as a patient. Under Universal Health care they arent forced to take you on as a patient either.

Forced would be to take a patient against their will.

[Mormolyce]

Rights are an extension of person-hood and exist outside the purview of government. They cannot be granted by government; only protected or violated.

The fact that you're suggesting that people vote on rights is in fact evidence that those are not rights, but privileges. The primary difference between a right and privilege is that the former cannot be taken from you and the latter requires permission and can be revoked. Additionally, anything that inherently imposes on the rights of others is, by default, not a right.

As an example, citizens in a local town vote to increase taxes slightly to pay for trash service. While they're a citizen of that town and pay taxes, they've the "right" to use the trash service but that trash service is not a right, but a privilege. And at any given time, citizens can vote to revoke that privilege. Similarly, if you purchase a gallon of milk, you've the "right" to that milk and to use it how you see fit, but you don't have a right to milk.

Just like water, you've a "right" to any water you purchase or acquire of your own volition. You do not have a right to water at the expense of others. If you use the city water service and don't pay your bill, they stop serving you water. You need their permission to have access to the water and thus, by definition, that service is a privilege, not a right. As is anything that comes at the expense of others. Seems to me people are confusing the "right" to something you pay for to actual rights.

Okay so what is a right and who or what decides what is and is not a right?

Example: I have the right to give you a titty twister every second Tuesday. Prove me wrong.

[Mistame]

Okay so what is a right and who or what decides what is and is not a right?

Look it up? I've already explained the difference between a right and a privilege.

Example: I have the right to give you a titty twister every second Tuesday. Prove me wrong.

Easy. If I give you permission, it's a privilege. If you do it without my permission, you're violating my rights and thus, it can't be your right to do it as a right cannot inherently violate the rights of others. It's really not a difficult concept.

[Mormolyce]

Look it up? I've already explained the difference between a right and a privilege.

Hahaha! No, I know what it means, I want you to tell me. I'm trying to encourage you to analyse your own precepts. And especially I want you to tell me who decides what is and is not a right. Since you're so convinced that rights objectively exist you must know the answer to that question.

Easy. If I give you permission, it's a privilege. If you do it without my permission, you're violating my rights and thus, it can't be your right to do it as a right cannot inherently violate the rights of others. It's really not a difficult concept.

No you misunderstand me, I am asserting that I have a right to give you a titty twister every second Tuesday. You do not have any right to stop me.

Prove me wrong.

[Cobrakai]

Personally I think Healthcare is a privilege and not a right.

If you misuse your body you should have to deal with the consequences unless you have purchased protection in the form of insurance.

Also, in ANY civilized country, no hospital is going to turn you away if you have something life threatening that HAS to be taken care of even if you don't have insurance.

Forcing doctors to see patients under universal health care greatly diminishes a doctors will to continue practicing. It also reduces the will of any people who would be willing to undergo 10+ years of education to become a doctor because the limited ability to make good money in the profession.

obviously children contracting cancer is THEIR OWN fault.

[Mistame]

Hahaha! No, I know what it means, I want you to tell me.

A right, in the context of this discussion, is a freedom one can exercise, without the permission of others, that cannot be taken away and is limited only by the rights of others.

And especially I want you to tell me who decides what is and is not a right. Since you're so convinced that rights objectively exist you must know the answer to that question.

Societies have deemed what a right is and by definition, anything that requires the permission or resources of others is not a right, as any guarantee to that extent would be a violation of the rights of others.

No you misunderstand me, I am asserting that I have a right to give you a titty twister every second Tuesday. You do not have any right to stop me.

Prove me wrong.

And I'm asserting that I've the right to defend myself and as such, you exercising your self-asserted right will leave you broken. As far as "proving you wrong", you exercising said right without my permission violates my right to bodily integrity and therefore your "right" is inherently invalid.