2/10 immigrants understand basic Swedish after 6 years

[Khaza-R]

You are viewing the people are less than because they don't speak the language and you deem them worthy of being deported.

What possible benefit do you think there is for the migrant to not learn the language of their host country?

It has nothing to go with thinking someone is "lesser". There literally can be zero integration if the migrant and the people of their host county cannot even communicate

[Sykol]

What possible benefit do you think there is for the migrant to not learn the language of their host country?

It has nothing to go with thinking someone is "lesser". There literally can be zero integration if the migrant and the people of their host county cannot even communicate

"Maybe you should learn their language then and quit being a racist." Wait for it, because it's coming.

[Themius]

What possible benefit do you think there is for the migrant to not learn the language of their host country?

It has nothing to go with thinking someone is "lesser". There literally can be zero integration if the migrant and the people of their host county cannot even communicate

Zero integration? Odd... how that works in America where we have china towns, little bombays, and so on.

[Deleted]

Much less. I don't want to live in an area that's mostly any one race. I wouldn't want to live in some places in the south because it's just a bunch of Americans with no ties to other countries.

To be honest, I really wouldn't care about that, as long as it's a nice place to live. As it stands, I am living in the second largest city in Sweden, so there's obviously a certain amount of diversity; but I would just as much like to live in a small town where this is not the case.

[Khaza-R]

Zero integration? Odd... how that works in America where we have china towns, little bombays, and so on.

Nothing wrong with migrants wanting to live by people similar to themselves.

I myself was born in a small town that was 90% Lebanese/Syrian/Palestinian. But we also all learned the language so we could go to school, integrate and prosper. Not spend the rest of lives being stuck in a bubble.

[Themius]

To be honest, I really wouldn't care about that, as long as it's a nice place to live. As it stands, I am living in the second largest city in Sweden, so there's obviously a certain amount of diversity; but I would just as much like to live in a small town where this is not the case.

I wouldn't like it... I don't... I don't like being around just a bunch of Americans with no ties to other countries, or those who haven't traveled any. I don't like being around just a bunch of people that are 1 race either every group of just 1 type of people always seems to just kind of a bother to me.

[announced]

well 2/10 is better than 0/10 i guess. hurray for progress?

[May90]

No one should assimilate... assimilate literally means to throw away your own culture and adopt another. Acculturation is what we should seek, muliple cultures distinct cultures living side by side keeping their original culture and some of the new culture.

"Assimilate" doesn't equal "throw away your own culture", it means become a member of society able to live and communicate in this society as well as the natives do. Assimilation isn't only good for the society, it is also good for the immigrant him/herself. The immigrant is free to hold on to their native culture, and a lot do; you will find, for example, that a lot of Korean CEOs in the US try to bring in some of the Korean work ethics in their companies, and a lot of Chinese immigrants read Chinese books, study Chinese philosophical teachings, teach their kids to do the same and so on. At the same time, they don't get stuck in the circle of other immigrants from the same culture, which hinders their ability to become a full member of the new society: you won't get far in NYC, for example, if you just sit in the immigrant ghetto on Brighton Beach, get jobs offered by other Russian-speaking people in that same ghetto - you probably don't even need to learn English to live there. You hardly even live in America this way, more like you live in Soviet Union, just geographically on the other side of the ocean.

If you just temporarily visit a country, then I can understand the lack of desire to assimilate. But if you plan to live there for many years, including permanently, then assimilation is pretty much a requirement for being able to take the opportunities the new place provides. So, by ensuring that immigrants learn the language, you make sure that they will have a quality of life closer to that of the native population - than if you encourage them to be stuck in Chinatowns where barely anyone speaks English and cares about doing anything to improve their quality of life.

[Themius]

"Assimilate" doesn't equal "throw away your own culture", it means become a member of society able to live and communicate in this society as well as the natives do. Assimilation isn't only good for the society, it is also good for the immigrant him/herself. The immigrant is free to hold on to their native culture, and a lot do; you will find, for example, that a lot of Korean CEOs in the US try to bring in some of the Korean work ethics in their companies, and a lot of Chinese immigrants read Chinese books, study Chinese philosophical teachings, teach their kids to do the same and so on. At the same time, they don't get stuck in the circle of other immigrants from the same culture, which hinders their ability to become a full member of the new society: you won't get far in NYC, for example, if you just sit in the immigrant ghetto on Brighton Beach, get jobs offered by other Russian-speaking people in that same ghetto - you probably don't even need to learn English to live there. You hardly even live in America this way, more like you live in Soviet Union, just geographically on the other side of the ocean.

If you just temporarily visit a country, then I can understand the lack of desire to assimilate. But if you plan to live there for many years, including permanently, then assimilation is pretty much a requirement for being able to take the opportunities the new place provides. So, by ensuring that immigrants learn the language, you make sure that they will have a quality of life closer to that of the native population - than if you encourage them to be stuck in Chinatowns where barely anyone speaks English and cares about doing anything to improve their quality of life.

Assimilate literally means to replace one culture with another...

What issues do you have with acculturation?

[May90]

Assimilate literally means to replace one culture with another...

What issues do you have with acculturation?

Dictionaries disagree with this. Whatever you call it, we both know what the talk is about. The thread is about immigrants not understanding the native language after living in a country for a long time, so...

[Themius]

Dictionaries disagree with this. Whatever you call it, we both know what the talk is about. The thread is about immigrants not understanding the native language after living in a country for a long time, so...

For discussions like this, I feel it is more important to use cultural anthropology definitions because dictionary ones are way too vague.

What many people describe wanting is textbook assimilation, a person giving up their language and culture and taking in their host country's. Acculturation is maintaining your own culture or creating your own enclave while living aside other cultures and sharing back and forth.

[May90]

For discussions like this, I feel it is more important to use cultural anthropology definitions because dictionary ones are way too vague.

What many people describe wanting is textbook assimilation, a person giving up their language and culture and taking in their host country's. Acculturation is maintaining your own culture or creating your own enclave while living aside other cultures and sharing back and forth.

See, if you dispute the claim that immigrants should give up on their native culture when moving to another culture, then I totally agree with you, it should be totally up to them - and, in a sense, immigrants preserving their culture is preferable (the more cultures are there in the melting pot, the richer the result will be). But being stuck in your own culture, ignoring the world around you, is a way nowhere. How about this: you cultivate your own culture, while at the same time integrating in the new culture, and ultimately merging your old culture with the new culture. Everybody wins.

As for enclaves, that is one of the worst things that can happen to an immigrant. I am an immigrant myself; I'd rather live in a worse region of Detroit, than being stuck with the immigrants from the same region I came from. There is a reason I left that region for the US, and I don't want to find myself having moved to the same dump I was leaving for good.

[Deleted]

So it's enough Swedish to be able to finish highschool? That's a bit more than "basic" Swedish i suppose.

[Cosmic Janitor]

My little tale is not about Sweden, but just something that happened yesterday and I thought it was just an amusing train wreck waiting to happen it also fits:

Some of our neighbors fled Albania .. probably over a decade ago, closer to 15 more likely. They intend to stay here and have a kid that is about to enter kindergarten. They themselves have barely managed to speak German in all the time they've been here, their vocabulary is severely lacking, their pronounciation is completely off and the grammar would be considered racist or mentally handicapped if a German spoke that way.

When celebrating another neighbor's birthday yesterday, the topic of their kid going to kindergarten soon came up and subsequent that elementry school isn't that far away either. Then the mother raised some concerns that the kid can barely speek any German, yet the father's first response was "it's important that they learn their mother's togue first". After pointing out that the kid was born here, is going to stay here, is going to learn here, is probably going to work here and knowing the language inside out is a must, he countered with "it's way more important that they never forget their roots and speak their mother's tongue perfectly, German is not so important".

Well what can you say about that? Clearly a sentiment one can understand, but also utterly delusional when it comes to practicallity. Both of them have been working menial jobs here, he drives a bus, she does cleaning, so the expectations aren't that high of course. Yet he will happily sacrifice his kid's future for some misplaced national pride for a country he himself will probably never live in again for more than a few weeks of vacation.

I doubt this is an isolated case either. So it doesn't surprise me in the least that alot of immigrants never bother to learn their host countries language properly. I've known Italians that actually managed to get worse at German in the 30-something years they've been here.

[kamuimac]

My little tale is not about Sweden, but just something that happened yesterday and I thought it was just an amusing train wreck waiting to happen it also fits:

Some of our neighbors fled Albania .. probably over a decade ago, closer to 15 more likely. They intend to stay here and have a kid that is about to enter kindergarten. They themselves have barely managed to speak German in all the time they've been here, their vocabulary is severely lacking, their pronounciation is completely off and the grammar would be considered racist or mentally handicapped if a German spoke that way.

When celebrating another neighbor's birthday yesterday, the topic of their kid going to kindergarten soon came up and subsequent that elementry school isn't that far away either. Then the mother raised some concerns that the kid can barely speek any German, yet the father's first response was "it's important that they learn their mother's togue first". After pointing out that the kid was born here, is going to stay here, is going to learn here, is probably going to work here and knowing the language inside out is a must, he countered with "it's way more important that they never forget their roots and speak their mother's tongue perfectly, German is not so important".

Well what can you say about that? Clearly a sentiment one can understand, but also utterly delusional when it comes to practicallity. Both of them have been working menial jobs here, he drives a bus, she does cleaning, so the expectations aren't that high of course. Yet he will happily sacrifice his kid's future for some misplaced national pride for a country he himself will probably never live in again for more than a few weeks of vacation.

I doubt this is an isolated case either. So it doesn't surprise me in the least that alot of immigrants never bother to learn their host countries language properly. I've known Italians that actually managed to get worse at German in the 30-something years they've been here.

i think a lot of this depends on the enviroment they spend time in - do they have many german friends or mainly spend time with their own kin - same thing happens in Sweden - not long ago i read a good article about "ghettos" that immigrants create in there - with time natives move out from that neighborhoood so immigrants only spend time with other immigrants and simply dont have any motivation to learn native language .

i know for sure that if i ever had to emigrate to other country i would imidiately look for house/apartment in neighborhood where natives are majority to give me more motivation to assimiliate and learn language better - but those who flee war often have no choice as they are assigned apartment via city's decision not their own .

[Morgaith]

Sadly you can't expect them to do anything else when they are busy raping/killing/robbing.


[Infracted]

it's pretty sad to see that giving out infractions for telling the honest truth is still a popular thing on mmo-c

[Freighter]

I don't advocate for something this strong, but i cannot stand it when people stay in a foreign country for a long time and make little to no attempt at learning the language. A lot of Americans/Canadians i speak to here in Korea don't want to learn Korean, despite some being here for a decade or more. It is absolutely wrong.

Are they sexpats?

[Strawberry]

The title and the first post in this thread are misleading big time as that is NOT what the article is saying. OP is probably one of those uneducated Swedish idiots who vote for the nazi party. Don't buy into this propaganda.

What the article is saying is that some regions have only basic language introduction and some have a lot more, but it also states that the pupils are wishing for a longer education because some are getting only 13 hours of education. Yes, THIRTEEN HOURS. How much of a new language (with new letters let me remind you) would you learn in 13 hours?

The article also doesn't mention anything about 6 years. What it mentions is that every 4th (that is 2/10) immigrant doesn't have a job after 4 years of living in Sweden. But it's not immigrants fault.

The language course Swedish immigrants take can be completed in less than 6 months. It's very low quality and doesn't really teach much. Swedish integration has failed big time on this, it's not the immigrants.

[Ishayu]

The title and the first post in this thread are misleading big time as that is NOT what the article is saying. OP is probably one of those uneducated Swedish idiots who vote for the nazi party. Don't buy into this propaganda.

What the article is saying is that some regions have only basic language introduction and some have a lot more, but it also states that the pupils are wishing for a longer education because some are getting only 13 hours of education. Yes, THIRTEEN HOURS. How much of a new language (with new letters let me remind you) would you learn in 13 hours?

The article also doesn't mention anything about 6 years. What it mentions is that every 4th (that is 2/10) immigrant doesn't have a job after 4 years of living in Sweden. But it's not immigrants fault.

The language course Swedish immigrants take can be completed in less than 6 months. It's very low quality and doesn't really teach much. Swedish integration has failed big time on this, it's not the immigrants.

You would learn the ****ing language if you spent time in the culture and interacted with people, education or not.

13 hours a week is PLENTY if you bother to try to integrate generally as well.

[Freighter]

I don't quite know what a sexpat is, but i am going to lean towards no? Most Americans/Canadians i talk to are either teachers or military. Neither really try to learn Korean.

Those who go somewhere mainly for women and their job comes second. Mostly noticed this with those who come for ESL teaching because it's a way into the country, a means to an end, they don't really care all that much about teaching. I hate them.