Ghostcrawler - "I’m a big fan of exclusive, prestige rewards for the best players."

[Lady Dragonheart]

Facts that you have failed to provide. It's not my fault that you peaked in lfr.

We aren't and haven't been talking about me, though. We've been talking about you and your inability that you currently covering up. Trying to derail to me is a red herring when you are the one who wants content gated and cut.

[Deleted]

I think people just don't make the difference between "content" and "reward". Content should never be time-limited (or for very rare and special occasions), because content = development time. But rewards ? It should obviously be time-limited. A reward is given when you accomplish something. The significance of the reward is mostly correlated with the duration or the skill required to achieve the achievement. But when the game changes, both this duration and this skill will be modified (often lowered). So the reward should be modified (often lowered) too.

This solve the case of achievments/title, which are only rewards. A trickier case is gear, because it is both reward and content. Reward because of their stats, and content because of their skin. Like TF for example. Because they're not xmogable, their appearance was "lost". But Blizzard solve this by making it the hidden artifact appearance for outlaw rogue. Problem (partially) solved.

[SoulSoBreezy]

I'm fine with exclusivity.
I wanted hand of a'dal and never got it. Oh well.
I miss out on pvp cosmetics every season which sucks, but I can live with it.
I don't think that Blizzard should keep having to go back to 12 years worth of their game to make sure that everything that has ever existed is always accessible. Retaining some of the old stuff is important but only to a point.
If some new tech or feature that works were to somehow break an old questline, what's the best solution given limited time and resources?

[ItachiZaku]

I consider beating the expansion/tier end boss in LFR as beating the game. Others don't consider LFR raiding at all. To each their own.

[A dot Ham]

Again, reading many of the comments here makes me think we're playing two different games. People claiming that "oh you're not truly skilled, you only wipe 400 times and then kill it, nothing skillful about that". Or that there's some kind of "special snowflake" mentality, this is not something new. If you think this is new you're simply deluded, mankind has always wanted to be recognized for their skill. Just because it's also apparent in a game doesn't make it wrong.

- - - Updated - - -



Who the fuck cares WHO he is. It's what the comment entails that's important. And that's what's being discussed, who he is or what he's done matters little. An opinion is just that, an opinion. Feel free to disagree.

The real irony is that the kind of exclusivity GC is actually talking about rewarding, is that most of the people that are advocating for it, would not actually receive said rewards themselves.

“What are your thoughts on creating/designing rewards around the top % of players? As a player it feels like developers are afraid of making exclusive rewards in games hard to obtain, or only available for a short period of time, as the remaining x% (majority of playerbase) will never get to obtain said rewards. Which leads to a lot of the coolest rewards being easily attainable, thus making getting a really cool skin, or mount not feel rewarding as it was trivial to get, and everyone has it.”

I’m a big fan of exclusive, prestige rewards for the best players. Having something that aspirational has benefits I believe even for players who have little chance of ever earning them.

That said, I don’t think it’s the right design to have great rewards for the best players and only hopes and dreams for everyone else.

If you unpack player motivations for earning a piece of content, they usually fall out into buckets like this:

I want to show off what a bad ass I am.
I want to express what kind of player I am.
The content has power and I need it to stay competitive.
It’s something fun.

Bullet 1 is definitely there to serve the top percent of players. Bullet 2 is less about recognition and more about communicating to other players about who I am. I’d be careful about locking those kind of rewards away to the top percent. You can get away with locking up a little bit of power under the justification that it gets more relevant at the more competitive upper end of the player base, but you have to be careful. Bullet 4 is where it’s easy to get into trouble where players are just in love with something (and not just because it symbolizes achievement). For category 4, I’d make the rewards highly available.

First seeing content is not its own reward and GC acknowledges that.

What you and others are advocating for is the kind of vain narcissistic recognition from Vanilla and BC. People are truly exceptional and deserving of exclusive rewards are those roughly top ten guilds competing for world firsts. Though their avatars and guild names come with their own notoriety.

Nobody gives a flying fuck about John Doe's guild that completed Mythic achievements 1 week before next content patch. Or really anytime after that first month... its old news and no one cares.

I think the unique look of Mythic Quality gear, is absolutely an appropriate reward for people who complete mythic quality content while it is relevant.

But lets be clear that the people calling for that... are NOT the world first crowd, the people probably the most deserving of some exclusive recognition... its you guys who want to FEEL better than everyone else... without actually BEING better.

For those that are talking about the extremes of not even allowing players to get that ilvl of gear... you are simply using the mentality of every royal family that has ever existed, you are simply talking about removing a system that would otherwise have the potential of elevating others to a higher status. It is for the sole purpose of keeping the plebeians down. To maintain (falsely) the exclusive or elite class. Narcissism at its finest.

[Crusch]

We aren't and haven't been talking about me, though. We've been talking about you and your inability that you currently covering up. Trying to derail to me is a red herring when you are the one who wants content gated and cut.

You claimed I didn't clear current content, I presented an abundant amount of evidence that proved the opposite.

[Lady Dragonheart]

You claimed I didn't clear current content, I presented an abundant amount of evidence that proved the opposite.

Wrong, I claimed that the majority of your achievements dictate that you do not.

I wouldn't call it bashing, as he makes a standing point. You, yourself, haven't completed the majority of the game when it was relevant. This means that you are for pruning your own account, ability to play, and access to the game for people that don't care about you, at all. It's bootlicking at best and masochistic at worst.

So, you are full of it. Either that, or you cannot read.

[Krille]

The real irony is that the kind of exclusivity GC is actually talking about rewarding, is that most of the people that are advocating for it, would not actually receive said rewards themselves.



First seeing content is not its own reward and GC acknowledges that.

What you and others are advocating for is the kind of vain narcissistic recognition from Vanilla and BC. People are truly exceptional and deserving of exclusive rewards are those roughly top ten guilds competing for world firsts. Though their avatars and guild names come with their own notoriety.

Nobody gives a flying fuck about John Doe's guild that completed Mythic achievements 1 week before next content patch. Or really anytime after that first month... its old news and no one cares.

I think the unique look of Mythic Quality gear, is absolutely an appropriate reward for people who complete mythic quality content while it is relevant.

But lets be clear that the people calling for that... are NOT the world first crowd, the people probably the most deserving of some exclusive recognition... its you guys who want to FEEL better than everyone else... without actually BEING better.

For those that are talking about the extremes of not even allowing players to get that ilvl of gear... you are simply using the mentality of every royal family that has ever existed, you are simply talking about removing a system that would otherwise have the potential of elevating others to a higher status. It is for the sole purpose of keeping the plebeians down. To maintain (falsely) the exclusive or elite class. Narcissism at its finest.

I don't know if I've ever read something so WRONG on so many levels before. First off you don't know that the "world first players" (50 ish people these days?) don't want recognition. I think they do deserve rewards unobtainable after the 1-3rd clear of the instance. I think Blizzard should recognize them for this. And i do sincerely believe that they want that too.

The ultimate plebs that want everything and do nothing about it is worse than the people that want certain things to be exclusive and that includes WF guilds that clear it within weeks of release. Even if i don't do it i want them to have something special for it, because it takes insane dedication to achieve.

And let's be fucking clear with one thing, if it's so easy to clear mythic raiding content within the first month why don't you do some experiment and try it. The casual player-base that have never done more than heroic always claim it's so easy and just takes time. The step to go from clearing mythic content while relevant to actually compete for WF is huge, and so is the heroic -> mythic clearing while relevant. The heroic raiders just looks so incredibly dumb when they claim otherwise, own up to it if you're going to talk.

[Crusch]

Wrong, I claimed that the majority of your achievements dictate that you do not.


So, you are full of it. Either that, or you cannot read.

Wrong, I completed the majority of pve content when it was relevant.

[WarTV]

when that went away from wow so did my commitment to the game. i just went casual. so i guess gc does really have a solid point

[Mercane]

I don't know if I've ever read something so WRONG on so many levels before. First off you don't know that the "world first players" (50 ish people these days?) don't want recognition. I think they do deserve rewards unobtainable after the 1-3rd clear of the instance. I think Blizzard should recognize them for this. And i do sincerely believe that they want that too.

I like how you just gloss over the fact that World First raiders also get paid to raid via sponsorships and also take a load of vacation time to facilitate their progression. I mean- I recognize them for their ability to both speed through content and wistfully shit their vacation time away on a video game, but that's not really a viable lifestyle for the vast majority of the mythic raiding community- so comparing that very same community against the world first crowd (which is getting increasingly smaller and smaller by-the-by) is a bit disingenuous.

[Daffan]

"I think the reason he feels this way is because having aspirations in the game make players better. It also gives players goals to go try to achieve."

Common logical fallacy right there. The vast majority of the players never "aspire" to shit, no matter how exclusive and prestigeous the rewards. Takes a special kind of mental gymnastics to look at the game as it's been for its entire life and say "Lol hard content makes players aspire to beat hard content!!"...

Hard content makes a minority strive to beat it, and that's fine. Focus should be on making sure that the vast majority always has a reason for playing though, lest the game shall die.

On the flip side, it doesn't help if the vast majority can gear up and clear all relevant content for their skill level in <2 week. That's not good for retention, and we've seen the drop off-patch cycle trend ever since they introduced welfare patches as far back as 378ilvl dungeons back in Dragon Soul.

Or the fact that 90% of content in Legion is meaningless trivial garbage, your average player has almost no reason to keep gearing past 850 - lest he pick up a raid schedule. (Most average/casuals realize this and just stop and wait)

It's a tricky balance, you don't want to make it a super nightmare like Vanilla (But that was more a logistical problem holding people back - 40ppl, no flex, no crz) but also not a welfare paradise where everyone quits soon after a patch drops because their done with the content in 2 weeks.

In regards to the start of your reply to the other guy, it's quite true that people stick around longer when they have to long-term goal.

[Krille]

I like how you just gloss over the fact that World First raiders also get paid to raid via sponsorships and also take a load of vacation time to facilitate their progression. I mean- I recognize them for their ability to both speed through content and wistfully shit their vacation time away on a video game, but that's not really a viable lifestyle for the vast majority of the mythic raiding community- so comparing that very same community against the world first crowd (which is getting increasingly smaller and smaller by-the-by) is a bit disingenuous.

For that sacrifice they deserve something exclusive. But that wont happen because Blizzard want to destroy it, because it's not healthy as you say. But I don't care what they spend their vacation doing. And only Method raiders gets paid.

[Mercane]

For that sacrifice they deserve something exclusive. But that wont happen because Blizzard want to destroy it, because it's not healthy as you say. But I don't care what they spend their vacation doing. And only Method raiders gets paid.

Pretty sure 'server first: whatever' covers that 'exclusive' category pretty well.

If not, there's also sitting at the top of wowprogress for the remainder of the tier.

[prwraith]

I mean I am too..

If I am the best player in the world and my guild is the best group in the world and we raid things nobody else can even touch. Our shit should look amaze-balls.

If everyone looks the same, has the same gear, the same mounts...what's the point.

[SirCowdog]

I mean I am too..

If I am the best player in the world and my guild is the best group in the world and we raid things nobody else can even touch. Our shit should look amaze-balls.

If everyone looks the same, has the same gear, the same mounts...what's the point.

The point is in the accomplishment. You and your raid would get recognition for being the most badass group in the game, not your appearance.

[Deleted]

I understand the video game design concept of what he is presenting

But there is no prestige in doing anything in a game, much less a MMO game.


Its not good when lead game designers talk like addicted players, whose happyness and self worth is derided from a game

[A dot Ham]

I don't know if I've ever read something so WRONG on so many levels before. First off you don't know that the "world first players" (50 ish people these days?) don't want recognition. I think they do deserve rewards unobtainable after the 1-3rd clear of the instance. I think Blizzard should recognize them for this. And i do sincerely believe that they want that too.

The ultimate plebs that want everything and do nothing about it is worse than the people that want certain things to be exclusive and that includes WF guilds that clear it within weeks of release. Even if i don't do it i want them to have something special for it, because it takes insane dedication to achieve.

And let's be fucking clear with one thing, if it's so easy to clear mythic raiding content within the first month why don't you do some experiment and try it. The casual player-base that have never done more than heroic always claim it's so easy and just takes time. The step to go from clearing mythic content while relevant to actually compete for WF is huge, and so is the heroic -> mythic clearing while relevant. The heroic raiders just looks so incredibly dumb when they claim otherwise, own up to it if you're going to talk.

L2read... has never been truer than it is in your post. That is some next level reading comprehension fail right there.

What I was saying was that WF crowd... (the people who might actually deserve exclusivity). None. Repeat NONE of those (50ish players) are here or anywhere complaining about exclusivity. Its the basic bitch Mythic raider that thinks they are hot shit that thinks the WF crowd needs exclusivity... except that their call for exclusivity isn't limited to only the WF crowd, but to anyone who is participating in Mythic raiding while it is relevant, they want to be included in that too.

I would agree that the WF crowd does some amazing things (there's that reading comprehension coming into play) and deserve recognition. MY point was that IF Blizzard was to start providing exclusive rewards... the kind of rewards GC is talking about... it would be LIMITED to the WF crowd... and NOT include the vast majority of elitist raiders that have reared their ugly heads in this thread.

This entire thread conversation was started because the master troll @Jaylock took a phrase completely out of context, "I'm a big fan of exclusive prestige rewards for the best players" which has been taken by the nastiest of elitist players to justify their own narcissism or advocating for the creation a system that caters to that narcissism. All the while not realizing that GC isn't actually referring to the run of the mill, basic bitch mythic raider. You aren't special.

[Vorecien]

Could we please stop listening to what he has to say? Why should his opinion be more important than that of any other ex-Blizzard employee? He likes something. Ok. Different people like different things. So sick of seeing his stuff on the frontpage, as if it has any relevance.

On that same token, why should we have to see your stuff on the first page of the forums? You're both humans with opinions, it's just his held more credibility at one point. He has very open-ended thoughts on the game that derive from a very system-based, game design origin. Where do yours derive from? Yeah, that's what I thought. Stop being rude for no reason. Thanks.

[Jaylock]

The point is in the accomplishment. You and your raid would get recognition for being the most badass group in the game, not your appearance.

The whole point of MMOs are the outward appearances of doing amazing things in game. Gear, mounts, titles, all reflect what amazing things the player has accomplished in the game. And THAT should be time limited (the mounts and titles part).