Ghostcrawler - "I’m a big fan of exclusive, prestige rewards for the best players."

[Deleted]

Sure you might inspire some people, others not so much.

You know what I see when I see someone in mythic gear or with high pho rewards 'Oh, how nice for them, I'm not going to get that at any point.'

I know I'M not a particularly good gamer, I don't care that other people have stuff that I do because my experience is more important to me than gloating to others.

[SirCowdog]

The whole point of MMOs are the outward appearances of doing amazing things in game. Gear, mounts, titles, all reflect what amazing things the player has accomplished in the game. And THAT should be time limited (the mounts and titles part).

That's not "the whole point". That's YOUR point.

As for time-limited crap, what do you think it's supposed to promote when a player sees something another player has, and thinks to themselves! "Oh man! That's so cool! I want to get that too!". But then finds out "Too bad chump, you had to be playing the game 3 years ago. Can't get it anymore." There's no chance to aspire to get anything in that scenario. The player isn't inspired to be better, or even to try to play, because they literally can't get the thing they thought was good.

Better to have a system of challenges that anyone can get if they're good enough, but is always available. Again, like many other times I've had this argument, I use the example of Darksouls. That game is popular for it's difficulty, and if you've managed to stick it out and finally beat it, you've joined a group of people who can really appreciate your struggle and accomplishment.

WoW just doesn't have that because of how linear progression is, and how disposable the challenges are because of that. Difficulty and challenge of older content can't be maintained and preserved because characters are constantly getting stronger through new gear and talents. Because Blizzard keeps changing the rules the characters play by with constant tweaking of abilities, and buffing/nerfing character skills, even if they scaled the content up, the initial challenge would be fundamentally different as newer players had access to better skills and abilities. This makes it nearly impossible for challenging content to be preserved for any length of time. MoP challenge modes are a perfect example of this.

However, that doesn't mean it's impossible to maintain a similar level of challenge. Blizzard could re-tool the MoP challenge modes using today's equipment and gear in order to allow current players to win those same rewards.

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I would agree that the WF crowd does some amazing things (there's that reading comprehension coming into play) and deserve recognition. MY point was that IF Blizzard was to start providing exclusive rewards... the kind of rewards GC is talking about... it would be LIMITED to the WF crowd... and NOT include the vast majority of elitist raiders that have reared their ugly heads in this thread.

They used to have titles for world first achievements. You know what it resulted in? Blatant, blanket exploitation and cheating in order to get those rewards. It literally brought out the worst aspects of gaming. That's what happens when you take "rewarding the best players" to an extreme. I mean, think about it. It was only a title, and yet people went completely ape shit, willing to risk their account with exploits and cheats in order to get the "prestige" of a world first.

It's much MUCH better to set the bar very high and maintain it, so that ANYONE can get the recognition if they put in the time and effort to get good enough. Putting a limit on how many people can get the rewards only promotes cheating, not excellence.

[MoanaLisa]

I do. But I wish this board would stop posting his stuff, as of now he's just some individual who hasn't even played WoW for years.

Mostly what gets posted here isn't about WoW at all. It's about game design generally. This latest in particular isn't even a little bit about World of Warcraft specifically. It's about designing reward systems.

He's the lead designer on one of the most popular games on the planet with a deep and long connection to WoW. People are interested in what he says and that's OK.

His stuff posted here gets a ton of feedback and that's good evidence that people are interested.

[Jaylock]

How vain and narcissistic are you?

I'm going to tell you right now, no one cared, no one wanted to be like you. No one.

If you need that "stuff" to feel better, then chances are, you aren't ACTUALLY better.

Its ignorant comments like yours that makes the quality of this forum actually lessen.

You wouldn't believe the amount of inspects I got when I was wearing FULL T6 Warlock set while standing on the AH Bridge during TBC. I got people DAILY asking me where I got the gear, how to get started into raiding, how to go obtain the gear.

People absolutely wanted to become like me and do the high end raiding to get the gear. For crying out loud thats how I started raiding, because I saw someones amazing T3 gear (back in Vanilla) and I wanted to get gear like that.

Like it or not, people like having the best stuff and if people know that there is only a limited amount of time to get it before it goes *poof* then naturally more players are going to try to press to get into that content to be able to experience it and get the rewards. Common sense wouldn't ya say?

[Soeroah]

Its ignorant comments like yours that makes the quality of this forum actually lessen.

You wouldn't believe the amount of inspects I got when I was wearing FULL T6 Warlock set while standing on the AH Bridge during TBC. I got people DAILY asking me where I got the gear, how to get started into raiding, how to go obtain the gear.

People absolutely wanted to become like me and do the high end raiding to get the gear. For crying out loud thats how I started raiding, because I saw someones amazing T3 gear (back in Vanilla) and I wanted to get gear like that.

Like it or not, people like having the best stuff and if people know that there is only a limited amount of time to get it before it goes *poof* then naturally more players are going to try to press to get into that content to be able to experience it and get the rewards. Common sense wouldn't ya say?

The thing is most of those people inspecting your gear wanted the gear, not to "be the best". They liked the look of the gear because it was unusual, they didn't see it, and especially in Vanilla there were only a few armour sets if you didn't want to be carting around random quest crap, not because it showed you were a good player. If they were asking where you got it, chances are pretty damn high they didn't care enough about doing high-end dungeons or raids to know about it.

I'd be very surprised if even 20% of them didn't go "oh, raiding? Bah." and give up, let alone were inspired to do the content. People who don't enjoy a facet of the game aren't very likely to suffer through it just because of a reward, especially when it requires such a time commitment and stress as high-end raiding. And yes, many people find high-end raiding stressful.

Now, not saying high-end raiders shouldn't get special rewards for doing the content, but I don't see the point in removing those rewards after the expansion's over. If it takes 4 years for a reward to become more common, what's the problem? If we're removing high-end raid rewards to keep them prestigious, where should we draw the line? Should Glory of the X be removed? Artifact appearances are likely being removed, should we get rid of all quest reward appearances? Should they delete all the old raid profession patterns and tier gear?

When you say "Like it or not, people like having the best stuff" you're missing the point. For collectors, collecting is their end game. They don't do it because they like having the best stuff, they do it because they like filling out their collector. Some things they like more than others, but it's not because they feel they have to appear better to their peers. I love collecting and I barely even look at other people's characters, let alone what items they're wearing.

So I wouldn't say that's common sense. To me, common sense is not removing rewards that give post-expansion replayability to the game.

[Sansnom]

The whole point of MMOs are the outward appearances of doing amazing things in game.
.

Strange. I though MMO was about playing in a game with other people.

Gear, mounts, titles, all reflect what amazing things the player has accomplished in the game. And THAT should be time limited (the mounts and titles part).

Nope. This is a self created concept from some players. Some people wants other to recognized their achievement in the game. If that is what you want, I suggest anyone who kills mythic should be given gear that emit pink sparkles. Believe me, you will stand and be recognized in those gear.

[A Chozo]

Like with the top rank pvp exclusive rewards, it can be considered seasonal rewards for the pve ones. It's fair. They earned it when it was relevant. If someone will spend cash on it, or ridiculous amounts of in-game gold or whatever, on getting a boost run, is another matter, as they didn't earn it the way it was intended, is just what it is, but I think they are a minority compared to the ones that put in the work for it.

People who didn't put in the effort and work needed to get it are SOL. That's fair.

Exactly. People also are very cool with this idea and like it being expanded beyond PvP's borders.

Do it Blizzard. Remove all the shiny, coolest rewards once the expansion ends! Put this information on the box of the game!

[Halyon]

Exactly. People also are very cool with this idea and like it being expanded beyond PvP's borders.

Do it Blizzard. Remove all the shiny, coolest rewards once the expansion ends! Put this information on the box of the game!

Yeah, as long as they leave something for the rest as well, then everything's peachy in my books.

[A dot Ham]

Its ignorant comments like yours that makes the quality of this forum actually lessen.

You wouldn't believe the amount of inspects I got when I was wearing FULL T6 Warlock set while standing on the AH Bridge during TBC. I got people DAILY asking me where I got the gear, how to get started into raiding, how to go obtain the gear.

People absolutely wanted to become like me and do the high end raiding to get the gear. For crying out loud thats how I started raiding, because I saw someones amazing T3 gear (back in Vanilla) and I wanted to get gear like that.

Is that something the armory tracks? How many times your gear gets inspected?

So you just expect us to believe your anecdotal fairy tale about people wanting to be like you. I have to say... that completely explains why you feel the need to start the number of topics you do. You crave the attention. You need it... you're nothing without it.

Like it or not, people like having the best stuff and if people know that there is only a limited amount of time to get it before it goes *poof* then naturally more players are going to try to press to get into that content to be able to experience it and get the rewards. Common sense wouldn't ya say?

If this were true poverty wouldn't exist, and every American would live in a mansion with 5 cars and fuck super models.

This whole concept that players will simply "rise to the occasion" is actually demonstrably false.

WoD actually tried that, by offering generic bitch gear to LFR, and anything with a unique model could be obtained from Normal-Mythic raiding... and guess what. People didn't "rise to occasion" they just stopped playing.

Don't pretend for a second that you have altruistic motives here. You don't think that exclusive content is going to drive more people to more difficult or challenging content. You just want the attention again.

You sitting around in a capital city for the sole purpose of being admired by your adoring fans, is like parking a Lambo outside an elementary school.

Poor Child -"Gee Mr. How did you get such a cool car?"

Jaylock - "Hard work kid!"
Jaylock - "Stay in school and one day you can have one too."

You know full well that hard work doesn't necessarily pay off and yield the same rewards. Or everyone would have a Lambo. Likewise you don't actually want everyone to work hard and earn one... because it would cheapen the value of yours. You would just complain that the content everyone is now completing is too easy.

[SirCowdog]

Nope. This is a self created concept from some players. Some people wants other to recognized their achievement in the game. If that is what you want, I suggest anyone who kills mythic should be given gear that emit pink sparkles. Believe me, you will stand and be recognized in those gear.

Exactly. But it's not enough that there be special rewards for completing the highest challenges the game has to offer. Some people want those rewards to be ONLY for them and no one else. Once they have it, they want the reward to be completely unavailable to anyone else: Hence the arguments supporting time-limited rewards.

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Likewise you don't actually want everyone to work hard and earn one... because it would cheapen the value of yours. You would just complain that the content everyone is now completing is too easy.

Nailed it.

[Radaney]

How vain and narcissistic are you?

I'm going to tell you right now, no one cared, no one wanted to be like you. No one.

If you need that "stuff" to feel better, then chances are, you aren't ACTUALLY better.

Nah you're delusional if you don't think people felt that way, I lived it and I played the game back then. People always gawped at others in higher tier than them in Vanilla and made people desire to get the gear themselves but you can lie to yourself and pretend otherwise.

And if you don't think all the kids that played the game back then didn't like feeling superior to other players by having better gear than them, you're delusional again because people who are mostly adults playing this game now still crave that feeling. Everyone is competitive in some capacity.

People used to get T2 and Ashkandi and wreck shit in Alterac Valley all day and everyone wished they could do the same thing, because you were getting wrecked by that guy and you wanted to do the wrecking.

It's cute you think otherwise, Cute af you believe otherwise enough to send insults my way. Retardedly so actually.

It's human nature at it's absolute core, pretending otherwise is absolutely ridiculous. The fact you tried to argue it is hilarious.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Give me something in WoW that is rewarding and worth the time? And i give you my opinion on it.

What is rewarding and "worth the time" is entirely subjective though, so your opinion on the subject is worth absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. They could change the game into oblivion and you could still sit there shaking your head saying "Nope, not worth the time, doesn't feel rewarding".

At some point, it becomes a you problem.

/Feeling plenty rewarded and having many worthwhile tasks in-game, more than in ANY previous expansion. But then I actually enjoy and care about the game and my character progression therein.

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So you just expect us to believe your anecdotal fairy tale about people wanting to be like you. I have to say... that completely explains why you feel the need to start the number of topics you do. You crave the attention. You need it... you're nothing without it.

I feel like this is the thing which is fundamentally wrong with these people in general. They vastly overrate their own importance, and can only derive happiness and a sense of "reward" from knowing that others don't have what they have.

I'm all for time-limited rewards where they make sense, but I'm equally happy if a reward remains long enough for me to obtain it later on as well. Wether or not other players obtain it now or later is absolutely irrelevant to my sense of reward and progression.

[A dot Ham]

They used to have titles for world first achievements. You know what it resulted in? Blatant, blanket exploitation and cheating in order to get those rewards. It literally brought out the worst aspects of gaming. That's what happens when you take "rewarding the best players" to an extreme. I mean, think about it. It was only a title, and yet people went completely ape shit, willing to risk their account with exploits and cheats in order to get the "prestige" of a world first.

It's much MUCH better to set the bar very high and maintain it, so that ANYONE can get the recognition if they put in the time and effort to get good enough. Putting a limit on how many people can get the rewards only promotes cheating, not excellence.

Well I'm not exactly advocating for those rewards again. My point was that those are probably the only people likely to get the exclusive rewards GC was referring to, and not to anyone who simply completed Mythic Raiding.

I agree that it has its problems. Cheating and exploitation are actually fairly tame consequences. People going on no sleep/caffeine binges and dying is probably the absolute extreme.

Or like League of Legends teams being banned for taking amphetamines to stay focused, and/or stay awake.

But this discussion is not really about raising the bar to change behavior and mold a better class of player. Its about some Narcissistic need to be special, to be noticed, to be acknowledged.

As someone who also actively raided vanilla to WotLK at the highest level. I can make two assertions.

(1) People did not worship the ground I walked on in, and I wasn't constantly getting inspected or asked about my achievement or where I got something.
-wowhead & thottbot existed... people didn't really need to ask.
-I get far more comments/whispers NOW in today's game with a "nice mog" than I ever did in my raiding gear. To be fair I ran thousands of circles around the orgimmar bank/AH... I didn't just post up on bridge on display for all to see.

(2) I have never wanted this. I have NEVER cared for the "prestige", and the majority of actual raiders that I played with, we all made fun of this elitist jack hole, who thought he was hot shit and peacocked around a capital city. What a fucking joke... what a sad pathetic life. I would much rather "Pwn nubs!" - Athene

[Stormspellz]

Word.

That hybrid tax... damn, I hated it.

That and refusing to separate PvE and PvP so that PvP balancing meant some specs would just have to suck ass in PvE (*cough* Ele Shaman *cough*)

elemental's bad mechanics was never a problem of pvp balancing, in fact "just make the numbers bigger" bandaid fixing in pve usually made elemental pretty silly in pvp.

[rhackin]

Let the whines from entitled millennials begin...

[Master Guns]

Could we please stop listening to what he has to say? Why should his opinion be more important than that of any other ex-Blizzard employee? He likes something. Ok. Different people like different things. So sick of seeing his stuff on the frontpage, as if it has any relevance.

...what an ignorant comment. It has vast relevance. He's been on the WoW dev team for many years and has a lot of insight.

I guess you think your seniors and elders are just "stupid old people", and that's probably why you're so stupid, too.

[Deleted]

...what an ignorant comment. It has vast relevance. He's been on the WoW dev team for many years and has a lot of insight.

I guess you think your seniors and elders are just "stupid old people", and that's probably why you're so stupid, too.

Are you comparing Ghostcrawler to a senior citizen? Gee, even I was more respectful than that.

You know a lot of people left Blizzard, who worked there for years, who have worked in video games for decades and who have worked on WoW for years. We aren't listening to what Rob Pardo has to say, do we? What is it about Ghostcrawler that so many people listen to him? Personally, I think it's only because he has the same opinion that they do, so they point to him and say "See, Ghostcrawler thinks so, too."

I honestly don't give a fuck what he thinks. Different people have different opinions. His opinion does not count for more than that of a random player.

Accessibility is a good thing.

[Nuba]

Could we please stop listening to what he has to say? Why should his opinion be more important than that of any other ex-Blizzard employee? He likes something. Ok. Different people like different things. So sick of seeing his stuff on the frontpage, as if it has any relevance.

I used to hate ghostcrawler. Then I met these guys Holinka and Celestalon and I really wanted ghostcrawler back.

[A dot Ham]

Nah you're delusional if you don't think people felt that way, I lived it and I played the game back then. People always gawped at others in higher tier than them in Vanilla and made people desire to get the gear themselves but you can lie to yourself and pretend otherwise.

And if you don't think all the kids that played the game back then didn't like feeling superior to other players by having better gear than them, you're delusional again because people who are mostly adults playing this game now still crave that feeling. Everyone is competitive in some capacity.

People used to get T2 and Ashkandi and wreck shit in Alterac Valley all day and everyone wished they could do the same thing, because you were getting wrecked by that guy and you wanted to do the wrecking.

It's cute you think otherwise, Cute af you believe otherwise enough to send insults my way. Retardedly so actually.

It's human nature at it's absolute core, pretending otherwise is absolutely ridiculous. The fact you tried to argue it is hilarious.

Played PvE... to PvP... all I needed to hear.

If you need that "stuff" to feel better, then chances are, you aren't ACTUALLY better.

Given your last post... those chances are increasing.

The really hilarious thing, is that I could seduce nuke just about anyone from 0 to dead in the 2 set pvp bonus blue gear, and some trinks from ZG. Including those motherfuckers wielding "Asscandy".

Or just windfury T2 plate wearers with my BLUE crafted arcanite reaper, and other assorted crap gear.

You know back when progression meant praying to RNG Gods and kissing ass to an equally narcissistic guild leader. I've got your number chump... you think you're unique... but you're a dime a dozen.

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I used to hate ghostcrawler. Then I met these guys Holinka and Celestalon and I really wanted ghostcrawler back.

I still hate GC.

But I hate Holinka more.

I don't think you can question GC's passion.

Holinka... I feel like is just collecting a paycheck and hates his job.

[Deleted]

You wouldn't believe the amount of inspects I got when I was wearing FULL T6 Warlock set while standing on the AH Bridge during TBC. I got people DAILY asking me where I got the gear, how to get started into raiding, how to go obtain the gear.

People absolutely wanted to become like me and do the high end raiding to get the gear. For crying out loud thats how I started raiding, because I saw someones amazing T3 gear (back in Vanilla) and I wanted to get gear like that.

Unfortunately those times are long gone and will never come back because of transmog. GODAMIT i hate transmog! Those times were the best.

I don't know if you realize but nowadays there is NO form of prestige of any kind. Everyone looks cool with transmog and everyone is able to see all raids.
The only form of prestige nowadays is item level and damage meters. Simple stupid numbers that no one cares about. This gives no one incentive.

Guys like me who believe unique prestige rewards are VERY important for a game are shamed and called "snowflakes".
But the truth is if there is nothing in the game to look up to and aspire to obtain there is no motivation to play the game outside of your confort zone of doing nothing. Basically there is no meaning or reason to play the game.

I think we are suffering in WoW the same thing that happened on the movie "The Matrix".
The first matrix was designed to be an Utopia where everyone was happy...and it failed because humans as a species define their reality through misery and suffering. We need something to look up to.

Right now we are in the Utopian Matrix where everyone is special...and i hate it