Ornyx - Laying the smack down!

[Swalload]

As someone who has done:
- Every raid 100% completed on LFR, Normal, and Heroic (most of EN/ToV/NH on Mythic as well)
- Every dungeon and M+, many, MANY times
- More World Quests than probably anyone posting in this thread
- Every major questline in Legion, including Legionfall, as well as every minor questline (there's essentially no yellow "!"s except the weekly Archaeology one)
- Most of the Pet Battle content
- Half of Brawler's Guild, but have completed Seasons 1 and 2 and I'm just too lazy to do more atm
- 2/4 of my Mage Tower challenges; working on the 3rd and the 4th I won't get for awhile (I'm too shit at Feral)
- Professions, even gotten every Legion recipe 3-starred from that fat fucking dreadlord Nomi

I believe I have a right to complain about the lack of content, no? Besides hardcore PvP, there's really not much else I haven't covered and almost no content (besides the new raid which I need my guild to do at specific times) is coming for the next few months. Am I allowed to complain?

So you make a giant list of content that can be done, and then say there's not enough content.
I can't help but call this retardation. =/

I mean, dude, seriously, lol, what the fuck. What else do you want?

[Verdugo]

Haha. I love it when blues troll back. They have all the data combined with rhetorical eloquence. They can really put out some high quality stuff.

They also sometimes make themselves look like idiots.

[Raugnaut]

Because unless you've experienced every single thing the game has to offer, you can't complain about content, right?

I get Ornyx's point and I agree that whining about the AK reduction is stupid, but I also think it's stupid when people say "There's more content, have you tried pet battles? What about archaeology?" I don't like those things, so I don't do them.

Both things ARE content. So, if you haven't done those things, you should not say "There is no content". Instead, you could say something like, "There is an overall lack of challenging solo content that grants gains for repetition". If you were to say "Theres no raiding content", then, of course, ppl would point out mythic, and if you say that PvP is lacking, ppl will point out RBGs, prestige grinding, and Brawls.

Really, Legion doesn't lack in terms of content - Those who think it does must have been bored out of their flippin skulls in WotLK. What Legion lacks, imo, is community - I almost never see a player from my original realm nowadays. Guilds aren't worth much anymore. Player interaction is at an all-time low. Community is what made WoW great, and since Blizzard has essentially killed community off... There really isn't that much WoW has to offer compared to virtually every other MMORPG that has turned into a single-player game with online interaction that tends to be negative.

[Lochton]

I love this. Ornyx is not taking crap from people complaining about the AK "nerf". A poster on the official forums replied to a blue:

As she noted, this change is mainly aimed at increasing base Artifact Power gains instead of an over-reliance on Artifact Knowledge - and we do want players to hit a point where they feel they have capped their Artifact Knowledge, so they can move on to other things.

Then Ornyx comes in with the punch!:

I assume you're trying to make a joke about content, because, looking at your Armory, it appears you've only engaged with about 25% of Legion.

I'm glad blizz is taking a hard stance at the whine that constantly plagues their forums. Much of it is just unfounded hostility for the sake of hostility, and its not warranted to be rude in any instance to the CMs or any other Blizzard employee.

See now, Ornyx isn't the only one whom has been like so, there's been others, and people started whining about the CM's and GM's not treating them right..

[Polarthief]

So you make a giant list of content that can be done, and then say there's not enough content.
I can't help but call this retardation. =/

Because I did it all. Raids get boring when you do them 30 times, as do dungeons. M+ affixes are good, but the variety doesn't really change things up enough. World Quests get repetitive and boring especially when they're just quests you did while leveling. The pet battle content, if you can even call that "content", seeing as how it's just a few trainers. There's so much potential there that's not being used. Brawler's guild was mostly recycled with some changes, and professions are hardly content.

Also "retardation", seriously? I've done pretty much everything there is in the game (which really isn't as much as you think it is), and their response is to keep adding RNG to make the game artificially longer. That's no better than forced grinding in RPGs because of sudden difficulty spikes.

As for what they could add, some form of something players can do on their own, which they time and time again ignore. I know WoW's an MMO, and a bit part of that is playing with other people, but having some kind of solo dungeon (that could maybe also be done with a buddy or two) that is also endless would be kinda neat. For reference, look at FFXIV, or hell imagine an infinite rift in D3 that got progressively harder.

Bottom line: AP is not content, nor is farming for that perfect Titanforged piece or your 2395487th legendary.

[Deleted]

See now, Ornyx isn't the only one whom has been like so, there's been others, and people started whining about the CM's and GM's not treating them right..

People who complain about this and say he should be fired are fucking rejects who have never worked in customer service and are incredibly self entitled. Garbage.

[clevin]

Both things ARE content. So, if you haven't done those things, you should not say "There is no content".

this argument is just so much bullshit. Someone doesn't have to do everything in the game before saying "I'm not finding any new content." Sure, they SHOULD say "I'm not finding new content that I want to do" but whining about how it's said is pedantic.

The fact is that there's not a lot of core content in Legion if you've kept up. By core content I mean PVP, dungeons, raids and questing. Pet battles are NOT core content - you could drop them and WoW would be fine without the Pokemon add-on. Same for Archeology. Yes, they're content and it's fine to have things that aren't central to the game but they're 2nd tier stuff.

The problem is that, for anyone who's played consistently since Legion launch this is ALWAYS where the expansion bogs down. In Legion, if you want, you've done all of the raids on at least LFR. Probably all of the 5 mans on at least heroic. You've quested a bunch likely just to get to 110 and probably have hundreds of WQs done. All of the content that they banked as they were developing Legion has been released and we're into the slower part of the game where we get a new raid every 5-6 months. Sadly, 7.2 is crap - the quest line weeklies are lame and not at all engaging. Have flight (or don't care about it)? Then Broken Shore is done. Done the invasions? OK, you can stop those too.

It's not that you can't fill time up if you want, it's that it's all repetitive stuff at this point. This isn't new to Legion... it's what happens at about the 9-12 month mark.

[Jimson]

Both things ARE content. So, if you haven't done those things, you should not say "There is no content". Instead, you could say something like, "There is an overall lack of challenging solo content that grants gains for repetition". If you were to say "Theres no raiding content", then, of course, ppl would point out mythic, and if you say that PvP is lacking, ppl will point out RBGs, prestige grinding, and Brawls.

Really, Legion doesn't lack in terms of content - Those who think it does must have been bored out of their flippin skulls in WotLK. What Legion lacks, imo, is community - I almost never see a player from my original realm nowadays. Guilds aren't worth much anymore. Player interaction is at an all-time low. Community is what made WoW great, and since Blizzard has essentially killed community off... There really isn't that much WoW has to offer compared to virtually every other MMORPG that has turned into a single-player game with online interaction that tends to be negative.

I agree, and I think I made the same point later in this thread. "No content" isn't the same as "no content I want," but both can be valid under the right circumstances. Personally, I'm still enjoying Legion so I can't speak to the people who claim there's nothing to do, but I respect their argument.

[Varitok]

Its pretty fun to try to name and shame people for what they like to do content wise. I honestly would love to see all the dev's armoury pages so we can see how much each of them engage the content that they are supposed to defend or discuss on the forums. Going the path of Zarhym I guess.

[Berengil]

Yeah sure, people should do content they don't like. Just so Blues don't flame them with their armory.

It's not that there's literally no content; it's that there's no content that appeals to them.

[Jonsno]

Yeah sure, people should do content they don't like. Just so Blues don't flame them with their armory.

It's not that there's literally no content; it's that there's no content that appeals to them.

Why even play the game then?

[Aggrophobic]

Yes, becuase mocking paying customers is a good idea.
The guy should be removed asap.

[Deleted]

Yes, becuase mocking paying customers is a good idea.
The guy should be removed asap.

Blues receive 1000x the amount of shit they give out. Nobody should be in a situation where they're constantly open to abuse.

Yet I don't see the tirade of posts of people calling for the heads of the people who give shit to the blues. Double standards much?

[Luckx]

Most WOW players doesnt do most content anyway according Blue Post from Ion "Watcher" Hazzikostas who is ex lead WOW encounter designer and new game director:

Second, almost every facet of WoW is an activity that caters to a minority of the playerbase. That may sound odd at first blush, but it's true. In a sense, that's part of the magic of WoW. It is not a narrow game, but rather one that can be enjoyed in numerous different ways, by people with hugely diverse playstyles. A minority of players raid. A minority of players participate in PvP. A tiny minority touch Mythic raiding. A tiny minority of players do rated PvP. A minority of players have several max-level alts. A minority of players do pet battles, roleplay, list things for sale on the auction house, do Challenge Mode dungeons, and the list goes on. Virtually the only activity that a clear majority of players participate in is questing and level-up dungeons, but even then there's a sizeable group that views those activities as a nuisance that they have to get through in order to reach their preferred endgame.

And yet, taken together, that collection of minority groups literally IS the World of Warcraft.

Perceptions of feedback are further complicated by the fact that, due to the cooperative nature of the game, players tend to make connections with others who favor a similar playstyle. I'm generalizing a bit here, and there are certainly exceptions, but I'd guess that a typical Gladiator-level player probably doesn't have a WoW social group that consists of people who mostly solo-level alts and explore the world. And most small friends-and-family guilds don't spend a lot of time talking to competitive Mythic raiders. So when there's a change, or a feature, that is aimed at a portion of the game that isn't your personal playstyle, it's easy and in fact natural to have the sense that "everyone" dislikes it.

If we decided to focus on a specific playstyle and elevate that portion of audience above the rest, then we could certainly visibly and consistently address clear feedback from that group, but WoW would become a far smaller game in the process.

Original post:

I'm sorry it feels that way. This is going to be a lengthy post that will stray far afield from the topic of expensive vendor items, but there there are at least two major underlying issues here:

First off, there are multiple viewpoints on nearly any topic, as you can see in this thread. If I'd instead posted that we were going to reconsider and massively reduce the prices of the cosmetic items on this vendor, there would be other people feeling like their feedback was ignored. It's exceptionally rare that everyone wants the same thing (despite frequent framing of "no one likes X" or "we want X" when giving feedback). And even then, there is a large silent majority that does not post on forums. If there were actual unanimity regarding a certain issue, we would change our design: For example, early on in Warlords, we changed Group Finder loot from Personal back to Need/Greed until we could iterate on Personal loot further, and the community overwhelmingly told us that was a dumb idea. The change was reverted within 2 days.

Second, almost every facet of WoW is an activity that caters to a minority of the playerbase. That may sound odd at first blush, but it's true. In a sense, that's part of the magic of WoW. It is not a narrow game, but rather one that can be enjoyed in numerous different ways, by people with hugely diverse playstyles. A minority of players raid. A minority of players participate in PvP. A tiny minority touch Mythic raiding. A tiny minority of players do rated PvP. A minority of players have several max-level alts. A minority of players do pet battles, roleplay, list things for sale on the auction house, do Challenge Mode dungeons, and the list goes on. Virtually the only activity that a clear majority of players participate in is questing and level-up dungeons, but even then there's a sizeable group that views those activities as a nuisance that they have to get through in order to reach their preferred endgame.

And yet, taken together, that collection of minority groups literally IS the World of Warcraft.

Perceptions of feedback are further complicated by the fact that, due to the cooperative nature of the game, players tend to make connections with others who favor a similar playstyle. I'm generalizing a bit here, and there are certainly exceptions, but I'd guess that a typical Gladiator-level player probably doesn't have a WoW social group that consists of people who mostly solo-level alts and explore the world. And most small friends-and-family guilds don't spend a lot of time talking to competitive Mythic raiders. So when there's a change, or a feature, that is aimed at a portion of the game that isn't your personal playstyle, it's easy and in fact natural to have the sense that "everyone" dislikes it.

If we decided to focus on a specific playstyle and elevate that portion of audience above the rest, then we could certainly visibly and consistently address clear feedback from that group, but WoW would become a far smaller game in the process.

Another major consequence of this structure is that if we have some special reward (be it a unique mount, a powerful item, a title, etc.) and we choose to associate it with a particular playstyle, almost by definition a majority of player feedback will be against that decision. For example, if an awesome mount comes exclusively from PvP, the majority of players who don't participate in PvP yet desire the mount would prefer that it were otherwise. If our goal were to please a majority, we would likely have to make a version of that mount also available through raiding, and one also available through outdoor questing and reputation, at the very least. But doing that would dilute the reward itself. Ultimately, the approach we take is usually to tailor different content and rewards that can feel special to different groups, rather than trying to come up with a lowest common denominator that isn't special to anyone.

In closing, I know it often can seem like we don't listen. We are - just to many, many different voices. And it may be that a given change, feature, or reward is simply aimed at a different portion of the playerbase. Or we could be wrong and we haven't realized it yet. So please, keep talking.

[Aggrophobic]

Blues receive 1000x the amount of shit they give out. Nobody should be in a situation where they're constantly open to abuse.

Yet I don't see the tirade of posts of people calling for the heads of the people who give shit to the blues. Double standards much?

It's their jobs.
If they don't like it they should leave.

If your employees mock your customers for just about any reason, they should be removed or at the very least be disciplined.
They are not helping themselves or the company by acting like the trolls they are mocking. It'll only creats more "shit", as you call it.

[Deleted]

It's their jobs.

No.

It's nobody's jobs to be a vessel for shithead troglodytic rage. Do you understand what the word abuse means or are you admitting you're totally ok with abuse so long as you're not on the receiving end?

Go walk into a shop and start hurling shit at the person behind the counter and see how far your apparently shitty ethics get you.

[ro9ue]

I would rather the Blizzard community people be a little more "real" like this instead of being held back, however Ornyx's comment about Legion participation is logically flawed. Because you have content available to do, doesn't necessarily make it good content.

That being said, I think generally Legion is pretty good, I just found 7.2 to be fairly uninteresting myself.

AP as a concept is fine for me. Makes every little activity in the game help towards some sort of larger goal. I think AK itself should just be given automatically as time goes on throughout the expansion and not have to be researched.

[Deathquoi]

Depends on what he's doing, really. If he has no interest in dungeons/raids, calling him out for not doing either is pretty dumb.

If you have no interest in doing dungeons, raids, or PvP, or any combination thereof, WoW is not and never has been the game for you. Dungeons and raids have always been the bulk of the level cap content. In fact, with WQs providing meaningful rewards outside of raiding and mythic dungeons, WoW probably has more to do outside of instances at level cap than ever before. But haters like the dude Ornyx shut down don't let facts get in the way of a whine.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, becuase mocking paying customers is a good idea.
The guy should be removed asap.

Sometimes paying customers are still idiots. The customer is not always right and sometimes, just sometimes, the customer is a dickhead who is out of line and needs to be put in their place.

[Aggrophobic]

No.

It's nobody's jobs to be a vessel for shithead troglodytic rage. Do you understand what the word abuse means or are you admitting you're totally ok with abuse so long as you're not on the receiving end?

Go walk into a shop and start hurling shit at the person behind the counter and see how far your apparently shitty ethics get you.

He was not abused in this case. Not at all.
The Blizzard rep was out of line and should be replaced.

[Deleted]

He was not abused in this case. Not at all.
The Blizzard rep was out of line and should be replaced.

Right, and his response was not abusive either. Merely observant.

But I suppose a bit of snark in response to a vapid, unconstructive comment is viable grounds to ruin someone's career in customer service in your books as well?

I think you just have a general hatred for blues and like to say polarising shit because you don't actually think of the consequences.

Also are you still not going to address the fact that you said "it's their jobs" to receive abuse? Fucking seriously?