Frost vs Unholy 7.2.5

[Deleted]

Managed to get Frost up to 52 traits now. Frost is slightly lower ilevel due to the weapons but sims 90k dps more on ST than unholy. That's around 11% gap!

Let's hope there isn't this much of a gap come 7.2.5. Now it's time to bank AP and decide which DPS spec get's the edge when it comes to concordance points.

[varraz]

Managed to get Frost up to 52 traits now. Frost is slightly lower ilevel due to the weapons but sims 90k dps more on ST than unholy. That's around 11% gap!

Let's hope there isn't this much of a gap come 7.2.5. Now it's time to bank AP and decide which DPS spec get's the edge when it comes to concordance points.

Im pretty sure you cant reliable sim Breath still. At least i woudlnt bet on it the be near the truth

[Deleted]

Im pretty sure you cant reliable sim Breath still. At least i woudlnt bet on it the be near the truth

Sims, dummy testing and raid data pretty much confirm that Frost is around 10% ahead. My own raid data shows frost ahead. Anyway, that particularly subject has been beaten like a dead horse. The unholy buffs in patch 7.2.5 should bring mythic T19 more inline with T19 Frost, but currently both specs are good enough for current content.

[Aivenarion]

How is the situation on the PTR Server? Did anyone try out the new set bonuses for Frost in comparison with the new set bonuses for Unholy? I'm putting a strong focus on leveling Unholy at the moment, since I got a feeling this will be a to go spec in the upcoming 7.2.5 patch. Mythic raid wise of course.

[Deleted]

Last time I checked the frost 4pc t20 was not working. So we'll have to wait for that.

[Ange]

I switch all the time between frost and unholy for mythic+ and I enjoy the options it brings for me for the weekly mythic+ affix.

ilvl 912 Unholy 52 bracer/KJBW 19/20/80 crit/hast/mast
ilvl 912 Frost 52 belt/ring 29/20/36 crit/hast/mast

I hope Unholy will surpass Frost again, since BoS is not that fun to play in a raid setting - ignoring boss mechanics and the need to keep melee range for 90+ seconds is very toxic.

[Khrux]

As an outsider looking in(alt DK, not my main) I found it really surprising that the BoS build became the go to. I know the machine gun spec was pretty mindless but BoS always seemed like a niche talent to me, not something that you build your entire rotation around and try to sustain for ST dps. I was always a fan of unholy, so BoS becoming #1 completely turned me off Frost.

I've only recently started playing my DK again with the news that unholy may become strong in 7.2.5 and hope it does. It feels like a more engaging playstyle to me, juggling 3 resources and reacting to RNG(both good and bad) instead of the do or die mentality with Frost trying to keep BoS up at all costs. Boss uptime makes or breaks your dps and it feels overly punishing.

I wouldn't advocate the fall of frost, I think both specs should be competitive but from a purely personal standpoint I'd like to see alternative builds open up for frost. It has some really interesting talents but is so heavily pigeon-holed into a single build path and is ultimately constrained by BoS. It doesn't seem like a positive position to be in, your basically held hostage by one talent dictating your entire other talents selection, gearing setup and playstyle. I don't think any other spec is as restricted as frost and its all because of BoS, a talent that is basically an aoe cooldown at its core.

[Nangz]

Really wish the idea that breath needs to be up for long durations would die off. It really only needs to be up for 35-45 seconds without lust. This is very easy to do.

Whether you like Breath or not is really just a matter of preference. For example: I love the spec and Frost is boring to me without it. Could Breath be tuned closer to alternatives so that it truly becomes a skill, encounter or preference based choice? Sure, but this should not be done by ham-fist nerfing Breath. With Breath we are competitive but not overly strong. Alternative talents need buffs. Its as simple as that.

[Lucrece]

Sims, dummy testing and raid data pretty much confirm that Frost is around 10% ahead. My own raid data shows frost ahead. Anyway, that particularly subject has been beaten like a dead horse. The unholy buffs in patch 7.2.5 should bring mythic T19 more inline with T19 Frost, but currently both specs are good enough for current content.

Problem as well being that frost frontloads damage better and is better at target switching. It's the burstier spec outside big cd's as well.

DoT specs tend to suck unless massively overtuned like affliction or assassination compared to frontloaded direct damage specs.

Unholy NEEDS to sustain more DPS than frost if it's to become relevant, as is any case for any dot spec where a class has a burst spec alternative. There's no point to a dot spec if the burst spec is sustaining the same DPS.

[Raiz]

Really wish the idea that breath needs to be up for long durations would die off. It really only needs to be up for 35-45 seconds without lust. This is very easy to do.

This is something I've always wondered though. Why stop at 45 sec ?

[Deleted]

Unholy NEEDS to sustain more DPS than frost if it's to become relevant, as is any case for any dot spec where a class has a burst spec alternative. There's no point to a dot spec if the burst spec is sustaining the same DPS.

I've been championing for Unholy buffs since almost forever, but I've never had issue swapping specs during an expansion. I was an avid frost fan from ICC, back end of mists and the very start of WOD, but I'm essentially a player that goes where the damage is. Unholy as a spec has always been for me, 'I didn't know it was this good' and it's numbers compared to frost during BRF in WoD virtually made it a mandatory pve spec. Fast forward to now we have an odd situation with Unholy, where certain talents, and mechanics of the spec have brought nerfs to legendary items (unwarranted in some cases) gameplay issues with resources and also buffs which come at a cost to other damage sources, which makes them a lot weaker in reality than on paper (the death coil cost affecting necrosis and overall CS damage. A nerf to both I might add).

The concept of Unholy as a speedier, agressive plague spreading juggernaut has been replaced with a clunky and slow moving plate wearer that has a whole arsenal of talents that should be baked into out tool set. The 3 resource management system is a mess.

Unholy frenzy should be our soul reaper or vice versa, epidemic should be a non talented spell that aggressively spreads diseases the way blood boil does for BDKs and bursting sores should be baked into the wound resource system without the need for either talent or a ring.

But it's late into the expansion. As it stands, my frost sims at 909k dps vs unholy at 813k dps and I've yet to have looted the frost belt. Despite the inaccuracy in sims, I personally will always choose the strongest spec with the current equipment and data I have, which was unholy for a long time due to the RNG nature in this expansion with legendary items and the AP grind.

[RuneDK]

Honestly, the only reason I don't want unholy to surpass frost is because of legendaries. I don't want rng to dictate my dps again. I already had to start with drapes, sephuz and prydaz for my first three. If I switch unholy my two best legendaries are sephuz and cloak. Once I get all the frost specific legendaries then it's w/e since I'll switch my loot spec to unholy outside of brh farming or bosses that drop frost relics in TOS. Problem is I still can get aggramar's stride and kjbw.....as well as frost bracers/belt....so 50/50 chance my next legendary is decent. Im praying my next two legendaries will be the frost specific ones though, this way if i get kjbw and boots while unholy spec i know all my legendaries afterwards will be unholy specific ones.

[Nangz]

This is something I've always wondered though. Why stop at 45 sec ?

You shouldn't stop at 45 secs. Its still better to get it to go as long as possible, but it loses significant value when your major procs run out and this often happens around the 45 sec mark on the pull.

[Ange]

You shouldn't stop at 45 secs. Its still better to get it to go as long as possible, but it loses significant value when your major procs run out and this often happens around the 45 sec mark on the pull.

If 45 second would be enough, we would all use bracers/Helmet for max DPS because a 45 sec BoS with lust is not hard to do without belt or ring.

When I try helmet/bracer + Horn for a strong 40-45 sec BoS and compare it to a belt/ring + momento 70-100 sec BoS the DPS difference is huge after 2-3 BoS durations.

Most DPS specs can hold 1000-1200 DPS over 60-90 seconds without any pot/flask/lucky procs with ilvl 910+. I see those numbers pretty much only with full BoS duration over the whole combat time.

[Slone]

I really miss the days of Unholy Necrotic Plague, now that was a fun challenge. Reminds me of BoS a bit.

[RuneDK]

I really miss the days of Unholy Necrotic Plague, now that was a fun challenge. Reminds me of BoS a bit.

Festerblight was better, because your dots snapshotted. Although NP was very similar to Festerblight. I'd love for that playstyle to make a come back, but unfortunately I doubt it ever will.

[Frolk]

Just tried the first two bosses in ToS on the PTR. From the looks of it, frost is completely dead for the first boss on mythic. You will not be able to keep up your BoS because of the movement required and with ToS tier, the loss of Rime procs completely screws your dps. I was averaging like 600k on wipes as frost and unholy was easily 900k. The next boss, Demonic Inquisition was a similar situation. You have to target swap a lot and outside of breath, your dps would be like what you would pull with machine gun build. Unholy doesn't suffer this kind of problem as much because its more constant damage instead of one long burst that can be easily interrupted.

Probably a good time to start collecting relics and dumping AP into unholy.

This makes me happy, BoS playstyle is not good for mythic, as u kinda ignore mechanics or else ur dps would be garbage, like running far on triliax to eat cake for example.

Im happy to go unholy again

[Deleted]

Just tried the first two bosses in ToS on the PTR. From the looks of it, frost is completely dead for the first boss on mythic. You will not be able to keep up your BoS because of the movement required and with ToS tier, the loss of Rime procs completely screws your dps. I was averaging like 600k on wipes as frost and unholy was easily 900k. The next boss, Demonic Inquisition was a similar situation. You have to target swap a lot and outside of breath, your dps would be like what you would pull with machine gun build. Unholy doesn't suffer this kind of problem as much because its more constant damage instead of one long burst that can be easily interrupted.

Probably a good time to start collecting relics and dumping AP into unholy.

"First Boss". LOL. If it is like Skorpyron (we killed Skorpyron in our 3rd try on mythic) it wont matter anyways.

And additionally, BOS looked always bad on first tries. Give it some time. I was very succesful in persuading my raid lead how much pain it is to play certain mechanics with BOS.

Anyways i'll be prepared for anything. I am 53 traits frost, 50 traits unholy and have all frost/UH legendaries aside of Unholy bracers (which i will get until TOS for sure). As long as both are viable (and not like in EN where both specs underperformed unless you had legendary UH bracers).

Side note: Mecahnics can be played with BOS. Not all of them. Soaking at Krosus and stuff like this.

[Acidbaron]

Just tried the first two bosses in ToS on the PTR. From the looks of it, frost is completely dead for the first boss on mythic. You will not be able to keep up your BoS because of the movement required and with ToS tier, the loss of Rime procs completely screws your dps. I was averaging like 600k on wipes as frost and unholy was easily 900k. The next boss, Demonic Inquisition was a similar situation. You have to target swap a lot and outside of breath, your dps would be like what you would pull with machine gun build. Unholy doesn't suffer this kind of problem as much because its more constant damage instead of one long burst that can be easily interrupted.

Probably a good time to start collecting relics and dumping AP into unholy.

Target swaps are not unholy's best fights either, the person has to be very much quick to react and able to plan ahead to not lose too many wounds on the swap unless the swap duration is shorter than the time the other target has to be damage plus the travel time back and forth.

[Maxweii]

Unholy's weakness on target swaps is nothing near what it used to be before Legion, as well as when you run Clawing Shadows it's easy to swap back and forth. Not nearly as bad as people have been saying.