2 explosions in Manchester Arena - CONFIRMED Fatalities.

[Mercane]

Clearly you're bad at english.

Not only does your link support my statement that barely any of them are extremist to the point of wishing to use extreme violence, but I never denied it was in their book, I was pointing out that anyone who believes any significant number of them FOLLOW IT is using an idiotic argument, since nearly all of them reject violence.

Please tell me all about your travels throughout the middle east and interactions with Muslim culture, Sharia Law, and their Penal System.

[Deleted]

This is about as detached from actual history as humanly possible.

First crusade:
It was launched on 27 November 1095 by Pope Urban II with the primary goal of responding to an appeal from Byzantine Emperor Alexios I Komnenos, who requested western aid to help repel the invading Seljuk Turks from Anatolia.
Second crusade:
The Second Crusade (1147–1149) was the second major crusade launched from Europe as a Catholic ('Latin') holy war against Islam. The Second Crusade was started in response to the fall of the County of Edessa the previous year to the forces of Zengi. The county had been founded during the First Crusade (1096–1099) by King Baldwin of Boulogne in 1098. While it was the first Crusader state to be founded, it was also the first to fall.
The Third Crusade:
(1189–1192), also known as The Kings' Crusade, was an attempt by European leaders to reconquer the Holy Land from Saladin (Ṣalāḥ ad-Dīn Yūsuf ibn Ayyūb). The campaign was largely successful in capturing the important cities of Acre and Jaffa, and reversing most of Saladin's conquests, but it failed to capture Jerusalem, the emotional and spiritual motivation of the Crusade.

That doesn't say what you think it says.

Extremism Widely Rejected Muslims around the world strongly reject violence in the name of Islam. Asked specifically about suicide bombing, clear majorities in most countries say such acts are rarely or never justified as a means of defending Islam from its enemies.
In most countries where the question was asked, roughly three-quarters or more Muslims reject suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilians.

There is 1.6 billion muslims in the world, If three quarters of them reject something, 1/4 does what? (and what is 1/4 of 1.6 billion?)

The Quran is no more violent than the Old Testament as far as the actual text.

I could dispute that, but:

This old and tired argument of "it's in their holy book!" is stupid, and anyone who uses it is narrow minded and frankly, since it's been shown how many times it's flat out wrong, idiotic.

[Granyala]

The Quran is no more violent than the Old Testament as far as the actual text.

It's a copy/paste from the Bible, so that's to be expected.

What people do not realize though: The old Testament is OLD. It's essentially a history book about how cruel and inhuman things were before the arrival of Christ. The new testament is where modern day Christianity happens and that is very, very different, because when Jesus revolutionized the faith (which didn't sit all to well with the people in power at the time) he made most of the old rules obsolete (Like stoning prostitutes for example) and instead preached tolerance and love.

I don't know enough about the Quran in order to say whether it has a similar rift or whether the radical and violent passages are still current "law".

[ParanoiD84]

This is about as detached from actual history as humanly possible.



That doesn't say what you think it says.



The Quran is no more violent than the Old Testament as far as the actual text.

450 years of muslim invasions will do that you know, enough is enough. Did a fine job to stopping any muslim invasion in europe up untill today, holding them in place in the region untill the mongols swooped down and destroyed their little golden age of islam and ever since that region has been, well you know.

Just something to compare from,

634-644 The Caliphate of Umar ibn al-Khattab, who is regarded as particularly brutal.
635 Muslims besiege and conquer of Damascus.
636 Muslims defeat Byzantines decisively at Battle of Yarmuk.
637 Muslims conquer Iraq at the Battle of al-Qadisiyyah (some date it in 635 or 636).
638 Muslims conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines.
638-650 Muslims conquer Iran, except along Caspian Sea. 639-642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt.
641 Muslims control Syria and Palestine. 643-707 Muslim Crusaders conquer North Africa.
644 Caliph Umar is assassinated by a Persian prisoner of war; Uthman ibn Affan is elected third Caliph, who is regarded by many Muslims as gentler than Umar.
644-650 Muslims conquer Cyprus, Tripoli in North Africa, and establish Islamic rule in Iran, Afghanistan, and Sind.
656 Caliph Uthman is assassinated by disgruntled Muslim soldiers; Ali ibn Abi Talib, son-in-law and cousin to Muhammad, who married the prophet’s daughter Fatima through his first wife Khadija, is set up as Caliph.
656 Battle of the Camel, in which Aisha, Muhammad’s wife, leads a rebellion against Ali for not avenging Uthman’s assassination.
Ali’s partisans win. 657 Battle of Siffin between Ali and Muslim governor of Jerusalem, arbitration goes against Ali 661 Murder of Ali by an extremist; Ali’s supporters acclaim his son Hasan as next Caliph, but he comes to an agreement with Muawiyyah I and retires to Medina.
661-680 the Caliphate of Muawiyyah I. He founds Umayyid dynasty and moves capital from Medina to Damascus 673-678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire 680 Massacre of Hussein (Muhammad’s grandson), his family, and his supporters in Karbala, Iraq.
691 Dome of the Rock is completed in Jerusalem, only six decades after Muhammad’s death.
705 Abd al-Malik restores Umayyad rule. 710-713 Muslim Crusaders conquer the lower Indus Valley.
711-713 Muslims conquer Spain and impose the kingdom of Andalus.
719 Cordova, Spain, becomes seat of Arab governorship. 732 The Muslim Crusaders are stopped at the Battle of Poitiers; that is, Franks (France) halt Arab advance.
749 The Abbasids conquer Kufah and overthrow Umayyids.
756 Foundation of Umayyid emirate in Cordova, Spain, setting up an independent kingdom from Abbasids.
762 Foundation of Baghdad 785 Foundation of the Great Mosque of Cordova 789 Rise of Idrisid emirs (Muslim Crusaders) in Morocco; foundation of Fez; Christoforos, a Muslim who converted to Christianity, is executed.
800 Autonomous Aghlabid dynasty (Muslim Crusaders) in Tunisia.
807 Caliph Harun al-Rashid orders the destruction of non-Muslim prayer houses and of the Church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem.
809 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sardinia, Italy.
813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country.
831 Muslims capture of Palermo, Italy; raids in Southern Italy.
850 Caliph al-Matawakkil orders the destruction of non-Muslim houses of prayer.
855 Revolt of the Christians of Hims (Syria) 837-901 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sicily, raid Corsica, Italy, France.
869-883 Revolt of black slaves in Iraq 909 Rise of the Fatimid Caliphate in Tunisia; these Muslim Crusaders occupy Sicily, Sardinia.
928-969 Byzantine military revival, they retake old territories, such as Cyprus (964) and Tarsus (969). 937 The Ikhshid, a particularly harsh Muslim ruler, writes to Emperor Romanus, boasting of his control over the holy places.
937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher in Latin West) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked.
960 Conversion of Qarakhanid Turks to Islam 966 Anti-Christian riots in Jerusalem 969 Fatimids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Egypt and found Cairo. c. 970 Seljuks enter conquered Islamic territories from the East.
973 Israel and southern Syria are again conquered by the Fatimids.
1003 First persecutions by al-Hakim; the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed.
1009 Destruction of the Church of the Resurrection by al-Hakim (see 937) 1012 Beginning of al-Hakim’s oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians 1015 Earthquake in Palestine; the dome of the Dome of the Rock collapses.
1031 Collapse of Umayyid Caliphate and establishment of 15 minor independent dynasties throughout Muslim Andalus 1048 Reconstruction of the Church of the Resurrection completed 1050 Creation of Almoravid (Muslim Crusaders) movement in Mauretania; Almoravids (also known as Murabitun) are coalition of western Saharan Berbers; followers of Islam, focusing on the Quran, the hadith, and Maliki law.
1055 Seljuk Prince Tughrul enters Baghdad, consolidation of the Seljuk Sultanate.
1055 Confiscation of property of Church of the Resurrection 1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks (Muslim Crusaders) defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia. 1071 Turks (Muslim Crusaders) invade Palestine.
1073 Conquest of Jerusalem by Turks (Muslim Crusaders) 1075 Seljuks (Muslim Crusaders) capture Nicea (Iznik) and make it their capital in Anatolia.
1076 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) conquer western Ghana.
1085 Toledo is taken back by Christian armies.
1086 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) send help to Andalus, Battle of Zallaca. 1090-1091 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) occupy all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands. 1094 Byzantine Emperor Alexius Comnenus I asks western Christendom for help against Seljuk invasions of his territory; Seljuks are Muslim Turkish family of eastern origins; see 970.

1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099.

Anyways im out got some work to do, shitty shitty work.

[NineSpine]

Please tell me all about your travels throughout the middle east and interactions with Muslim culture, Sharia Law, and their Penal System.

Well, I often spend 4-6 months a year in various countries in the region, working with my clients to do outreach to locals and their governments, as well as developing an understanding for them of the local customs and laws. I have advanced degrees in the the history of the region and have read the Quran numerous times in Arabic. Tell me about your travels please.

[Deleted]

Should we deport the people in this thread who are advocating direct persecution of Muslims?

Muslims who don't respect the rights of others, should persecuted, in fact they should be prosecuted.

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Clearly you're bad at english.

Nah, we have had this discussion before, you are the one unable to grasp the significance of specific words.

Not only does your link support my statement that barely any of them are extremist to the point of wishing to use extreme violence,

Indeed, it says 3/4 quarters reject violence - 1/4 of 1.6 billion is what?

but I never denied it was in their book, I was pointing out that anyone who believes any significant number of them FOLLOW IT is using an idiotic argument, since nearly all of them reject violence.

The answer is 400 million.

[Jessicka]

I assume you are european living in one of those countries suffer from the said problem? If thats the case, you are very blind man.

On other hand if you arent living in european country that took many immigrants, you are definately not in a place to say anything as your informations are from leftwing medias that are far from reality. Want to check it yourself? Go to Paris or any other bigger german/french/south italy/greece city and check it out, especially at night.

The bomber wasn't an immigrant. Can we just get that much through to people. He was a British national, born and raise in Manchester.

[gargarr]

Considering there are reports of atheist extremists... it probably has other roots than that specific religion, also if we look at other religions everyone of them had/have radicals that use/d those religions as an excuse for violence.

It's easy, first of it's known, second of people can find like-minded persons and get a feeling of solidarity again, this is shared with every group activity, then comes the stuff were the uneducated or gullible or naive or idiots agree to excuse hate against a certain group based on traits that group shares for example football rivalry and the hooligans those produce and then comes the time some of those assholes excuse violence against a certain group.

To my knowledge that days of christians holy crusade are over. And i have never heard of judaists blowing themselves up in Europe. Since we all live in the here and now it is time to deal with the religion that does the most hatm today

No matter how hard you will try to spin it. Fact remains. Muslims beliveres cause a lot of mess in the world right now. We will be smart to try and contain it in our countries as much as possible.

[Granyala]

Muslims who don't respect the rights of others, should persecuted, in fact they should be prosecuted.

Muslims that break our laws should be and ARE prosecuted.
I'm against condemning people before they did anything wrong.

[Majestic12]

I wish this all terrorist attacks will eventually leads to some rights wing parties getting power in countries and actually banning Islam and removing all non-citizens with Islam as declared religion from europe. Yes its drastic, yes it would hurt people that didnt do anything wrong, but this would solve so many modern europe problems...

There are child raping ganks all over eu, selling them as sex slaves, they are cause of most of the violent rape attacks, there was no terrorist attack that wasnt related to islam in europe since ages, not to mention they are taking so much benefits from the countries we could easly build something usefull instead like hospitals or schools for children. This list would go and go but i want to stop here since talking against islam on this forum seems to be bannable, which is racist against white christants at it finest.

You sound like a true nazi when you write it like that.
"We need to get them all out, It'd solve our problems". It wouldn't solve a thing.

Take Sweden as an example. You said you wanted to build hospitals. Who is going to work there? In fact, IF you removed all muslims, you might as well start closing the hospitals we already have. We are dependant on immigration for those kind of jobs.

By the way, if you ban a religion, you're turning your back on a vore principles of western society.
You're just all over the place, which you base om a false world view.

[Deleted]

It's great how you're now defending Real Life Trolls. People should be able to wear T-shirts that show the decapitation of a human, and every person who does not tolerate that, needs to be deported. Why? Because FUCK DECENCY!

You are right.
And we can revisit this when whomever is the outgroup in this particular fantasy commits a terrorist act - Then we can clamp down on them.

[gargarr]

The bomber wasn't an immigrant. Can we just get that much through to people. He was a British national, born and raise in Manchester.

And you forgot that one small detail of him being a radical Muslim. One that the autorities were awere of.

Fine. The mistake of leting his muslims parets in the coutry in the first place was done. But the autorities did even a bigger mistake not throwing him in jail before he did what he did even though they knew he was basically a walking time bomb.

[lonely zergling]

The bomber wasn't an immigrant. Can we just get that much through to people. He was a British national, born and raise in Manchester.

Son of libyan refugees. Migrationbackground. Migration. Case closed.

[Deleted]

My capacity for offense is balanced with my inability to enforce legislation against it.
In the context of cultural expression, I don't have to tolerate anything at all, and you don't either.

You're going from a want (which is whatevs, since many people want religion to not even be a thing, and that's ok), to drafting what needs to be done, with no other justification than your precious feelings. Give me a break.

No, see my point here is that Muslims who cannot accept that you are allowed to blaspheme (because its not a crime) in the west, needs to go.

[NineSpine]

First crusade:
It was launched on 27 November 1095 by Pope Urban II with the primary goal of responding to an appeal from Byzantine Emperor Alexios I Komnenos, who requested western aid to help repel the invading Seljuk Turks from Anatolia.

It's kind of funny for you to paper over that the Byzantine empire in this period was insanely dogmatic and was mass executing anyone who was even the wrong kind of Christian, but moving on from that, the Seljuks were not actually invading, so your argument makes no sense.

Second crusade:
The Second Crusade (1147–1149) was the second major crusade launched from Europe as a Catholic ('Latin') holy war against Islam. The Second Crusade was started in response to the fall of the County of Edessa the previous year to the forces of Zengi. The county had been founded during the First Crusade (1096–1099) by King Baldwin of Boulogne in 1098. While it was the first Crusader state to be founded, it was also the first to fall.

Zengi was repelling foreign occupiers.

The Third Crusade:
(1189–1192), also known as The Kings' Crusade, was an attempt by European leaders to reconquer the Holy Land from Saladin (Ṣalāḥ ad-Dīn Yūsuf ibn Ayyūb). The campaign was largely successful in capturing the important cities of Acre and Jaffa, and reversing most of Saladin's conquests, but it failed to capture Jerusalem, the emotional and spiritual motivation of the Crusade.

Yeah, that's not a response to aggression. That's a violent invasion. I don't know if you are aware of where the Holy Land is, but it isn't some region Muslims seized from the Catholic Church.

Extremism Widely Rejected Muslims around the world strongly reject violence in the name of Islam. Asked specifically about suicide bombing, clear majorities in most countries say such acts are rarely or never justified as a means of defending Islam from its enemies.
In most countries where the question was asked, roughly three-quarters or more Muslims reject suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilians.

There is 1.6 billion muslims in the world, If three quarters of them reject something, 1/4 does what? (and what is 1/4 of 1.6 billion?)

"In most countries" is not where 1.6 billion Muslims live, so you are deliberately trying to lie about the numbers to make your argument look better.

I could dispute that, but:

Those two points agree with each other.

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Muslims who don't respect the rights of others, should persecuted, in fact they should be prosecuted.

Why don't you want to answer the question? Should people advocating direct persecution of Muslims be persecuted and prosecuted? Or do you only think your rules should apply to Muslims?

[Deleted]

Take Sweden as an example. You said you wanted to build hospitals. Who is going to work there? In fact, IF you removed all muslims, you might as well start closing the hospitals we already have. We are dependant on immigration for those kind of jobs.

No we are not.
You see if you remove all the immigrants, the population will decrease by that amount too.
And the average immigrant, LESS educated than the average swede.
In short, while you would loose some immigrant doctors and nurses, you would loose way more consumers of said resource.

[Mercane]

Well, I often spend 4-6 months a year in various countries in the region, working with my clients to do outreach to locals and their governments, as well as developing an understanding for them of the local customs and laws. I have advanced degrees in the the history of the region and have read the Quran numerous times in Arabic. Tell me about your travels please.

Thanks for your resumé, but I really wasn't talking to you, was I?

[Cthulhu 2020]

Indeed, it says 3/4 quarters reject violence - 1/4 of 1.6 billion is what?


The answer is 400 million.

A rejection of violence, versus an adherence to it. You do realize there's a middle ground there, where people are are complacent about it? Claiming that they strictly follow it - which is to say they actively pursue it - is hilarious. There aren't 400 million members of al-qaeda and ISIS combined.

[NineSpine]

Thanks for your resumé, but I really wasn't talking to you, was I?

Oh, is it too hard to deal with actual experts, so now you are going to ignore me? Pathetic.

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To my knowledge that days of christians holy crusade are over. And i have never heard of judaists blowing themselves up in Europe. Since we all live in the here and now it is time to deal with the religion that does the most hatm today

What country randomly invaded another country unprovoked about 13 years ago, resulting in the deaths of millions of people, and complete destabilization of the region, and called it a Holy War. Hint: It wasn't Iran.

[Mercane]

Oh, is it too hard to deal with actual experts, so now you are going to ignore me? Pathetic.

Inserting yourself into a conversation as a resort to push personal attacks... how professional of you.