i dont get the opposition to parsing in FFXIV

[Deleted]

I fail to see the correlation between not being able to tell if a guy is good or not, and lacking gameplay...

Because it means the game is only a number game and that you re not doing anything relevant gameplay wise, in term of impact on the course of an encounter. If the game was well designed on a gameplay standpoint you wouldn't need parsers to tell if someone wasn't doing his job properly. As an easy example coming from FFXI, if to deal damage you needed 2 melee to cast 2 abilities in succession to perform a skillchain then a magic user to perform a magic burst, you'd immediately see who would messing up if something went wrong (as it is a matter of coordination).

It's also the reason why nobody care about PVP in FFXIV, be it players or watchers.

It really isnt hard to tell if you know much about the game.

It really is though, I'm not playing FFXIV anymore but every single player of my FC (who raided in savage when it was really hard at the beginning of HW) really did need parsers to improve themselves and complete the floors (as the DPS checks were insanely tights).

[Dwill]

I can.
I can see DoTs. I can see buffs. I can see casts.

Trust me. If you play BLM / SMN, I will feel and know if you play like crap.

I do not need ACT for that.

Plenty of summoner will use their DoTs and Aetherflow and do terrible damage. Guesstimating is a very inaccurate way of gauging performance, even less so when trying to gauge the performance of 3 other players while focusing on your own stuff to do.

[Nikkaszal]

I can.
I can see DoTs. I can see buffs. I can see casts.

Trust me. If you play BLM / SMN, I will feel and know if you play like crap.

I do not need ACT for that.

You watch every single person's casts? Every single person's debuff timers?

You can tell like THAT if a SMN is bad, and reapplying DoTs 4-5sec early? You can tell if a BLM isn't following the ABCs, and the pause in their cast bar is because they fucked up their Ice transition and are waiting on a mana tick, and not because they've used a GCD on a Thundercloud proc? You can tell this in the middle of a damn boss fight? You are not only managing yourself, but 7 other people's casts and debuffs?

You must have eleven sets of eyes.

Oh wait... no, you're just bullshitting.

[Hadosama]

Problem is you're kind of at that the mercy of the kicked person. If they open a ticket and claim they were vote kicked for playing bad, you can and will be banned. Been on the the receiving end of that.

Thing is though you are allowed to kick for a difference in play style. It does not say it, but it is allowed. The GM who handed out that ban was definitely heavy handed.

[Comfort]

Only skimmed, if i repeat stuff from other posts sorry!

You can try offer tips and advice to the guy and explain your action he had issues with.
You can just remember this is probably a small % of the experience you are going to have in this game (easy to remember the bad, easy to forget the good).

tbh content like dungeons are well tuned for even people under performing. Its acceptable to wipe and try again. Its acceptable for dungeon to take longer than you are used to it will be finished soon enough if you keep at it.

If you are not willing to deal with it there are things you can do like find people to run them with it is an MMO there are other ppl, ppl who probably share your mindset. Join an FC if needed.

I would recommend running as a healer tbh, you can make up for others short comings with your own dps and and carry them to victory. This is how I get trough run really quickly. My sch dps is strong on trash aoe and close on ST boss damage. Any healer can do superb damage at this point.

[zeropeorth]

You say this as if most serious players aren't already using third party parsing like ACT.

If your delicate sensibilities can't handle the stress of knowing that your DPS is garbage, or that you're constantly dying to the same thing, then raiding is not for you. Everyone else would welcome native support for it.

The proper use of parsers:

To evaluate yourself and self-improvement.
To evaluate your (static) raid group to find issues and areas to work on improvement as a group and individuals.

If you want to use them in a 'pug' environment, then the way you engage needs to be with tactful coercion, not brow-beating. You know the saying, 'you catch more flies with honey than vinegar'. So, someone is performing bad, you start trying to coach them, in a way that isn't 'eh mate, you fucking suck, x ability is useless dumbshit'. They are strangers and actual human beings, believe it or not. You were them at something at some point in your life, and I'm sure if your lover thinks you are shit, you'd rather them not tell you to 'get the fuck off me you little dicked inbred, a yeast infection feels better than your efforts' and instead give you actual advice to how to work it the way they like it.

Some will rage, but that is on them, the ones that listen, you've just made the community better and made someone's day. They can take the knowledge and help you've given and apply it outside the instance, which means their world combat experience just got better and in turn they enjoy the game more. I've done this thing many times with bad warlocks back in my wow days. I've improved people's output by 10-20x what they were putting out; like affliction locks using incinerate type stuff, just because they got the spell while leveling and thought they were supposed to use it.

Kill them with kindness, for a better community. Want to throw salt? WoW is a few clicks away. No other MMO has as many epeeners being jerks to unskilled players, its a haven for those types; while FF/SW/etc have lore nerds from outside the gaming world, or outside the PC/mmo world joining in for the love of the IP/franchise.

[Nurvus]

Looking at WoW, the most good intentioned and theoretically useful tools are used in despicable ways.
It ultimately does affect player behavior:
1 - Gear score/iLevel - used to segregate people, deny entry without being given a chance to prove yourself.
2 - Public Parsing - Encourages "meter padding" to top the charts, even if it means contributing poorly to the encounter.

With that in mind, I think that:
1 - Detailed parsing should be personal, private and non-broadcastable.
Something you use when training on dummies, etc.
2 - Broadcastable parsing should be less detailed and have a positive focus, oriented solely towards improvement, not boasting.
2.1 - Give players a Rating based on Performance vs Gear, instead of showing how much damage/healing they did.
2.2 - Give detailed information/filtering on how each player's damage/healing is distributed per target and per skill - so you can tell if they were doing their job or just trying to "pad the meters"
3 - Damage taken per hostile source.
4 - Time spent in "fire".

TL;DR
Helpful information is good.
E-Peen information is bad.

[Wrecktangle]

The proper use of parsers:

To evaluate yourself and self-improvement.
To evaluate your (static) raid group to find issues and areas to work on improvement as a group and individuals.

If you want to use them in a 'pug' environment, then the way you engage needs to be with tactful coercion, not brow-beating. You know the saying, 'you catch more flies with honey than vinegar'. So, someone is performing bad, you start trying to coach them, in a way that isn't 'eh mate, you fucking suck, x ability is useless dumbshit'. They are strangers and actual human beings, believe it or not. You were them at something at some point in your life, and I'm sure if your lover thinks you are shit, you'd rather them not tell you to 'get the fuck off me you little dicked inbred, a yeast infection feels better than your efforts' and instead give you actual advice to how to work it the way they like it.

Some will rage, but that is on them, the ones that listen, you've just made the community better and made someone's day. They can take the knowledge and help you've given and apply it outside the instance, which means their world combat experience just got better and in turn they enjoy the game more. I've done this thing many times with bad warlocks back in my wow days. I've improved people's output by 10-20x what they were putting out; like affliction locks using incinerate type stuff, just because they got the spell while leveling and thought they were supposed to use it.

Agreed wholeheartedly. had I had time to post and reply to every nonsensical reply in here this is basically what I would have said over and over, as I have in other threads.

Kill them with kindness, for a better community. Want to throw salt? WoW is a few clicks away. No other MMO has as many epeeners being jerks to unskilled players, its a haven for those types; while FF/SW/etc have lore nerds from outside the gaming world, or outside the PC/mmo world joining in for the love of the IP/franchise.

Now, you and I disagree here. WoW has a lot more players so by proxy it's going to have a lot of more jerks and good people too. That's common sense. I've had more bad experiences in FF14 than I have in WoW, but that's mostly a byproduct of being grouped with players I'd normally never see, and a significantly shorter playtime ~3 years vs. 10+.

Looking at WoW, the most good intentioned and theoretically useful tools are used in despicable ways.
It ultimately does affect player behavior:
1 - Gear score/iLevel - used to segregate people, deny entry without being given a chance to prove yourself.
2 - Public Parsing - Encourages "meter padding" to top the charts, even if it means contributing poorly to the encounter.

With that in mind, I think that:
1 - Detailed parsing should be personal, private and non-broadcastable.
Something you use when training on dummies, etc.
2 - Broadcastable parsing should be less detailed and have a positive focus, oriented solely towards improvement, not boasting.
2.1 - Give players a Rating based on Performance vs Gear, instead of showing how much damage/healing they did.
2.2 - Give detailed information/filtering on how each player's damage/healing is distributed per target and per skill - so you can tell if they were doing their job or just trying to "pad the meters"
3 - Damage taken per hostile source.
4 - Time spent in "fire".

TL;DR
Helpful information is good.
E-Peen information is bad.

1) ilvl is used to segregate players in both games, so that is irrelevant in this comparison.
2) There are instances where padding is prevalent and I agree it occasionally fosters the environment you're speaking off, but I also know that people know how to read a meter to not show padding (i.e. boss/primary add damage) so I'm inclined to believe this is significantly less impactful than you're letting on.

Now with regards to your second piece:

You could just use a regular parser you know since it tells you "time spent in fire", damage taken per source, filtering and distribution, etc. All information is good, e peen information doesn't exist. e peen people exist.

The tool is fine, it's people that are stupid. It's a very simple solution. Put the tool in, say harassment towards a player is a punishable offense. Removing someone for low dps? not a problem as long as the person communicates it like an adult. Calling someone a raging cumdumpster waste of life who should kill themselves? 1 week ban. Second offense? month ban. Third offense? Gone.

[Kazgrel]

You watch every single person's casts? Every single person's debuff timers?

You can tell like THAT if a SMN is bad, and reapplying DoTs 4-5sec early? You can tell if a BLM isn't following the ABCs, and the pause in their cast bar is because they fucked up their Ice transition and are waiting on a mana tick, and not because they've used a GCD on a Thundercloud proc? You can tell this in the middle of a damn boss fight? You are not only managing yourself, but 7 other people's casts and debuffs?

You must have eleven sets of eyes.

Oh wait... no, you're just bullshitting.

Between all the visual and sound cues that spells and abilities in this game feature, yes, one can do what the person you quoted described to discern a rough idea as to whether or not someone's actually trying to put out decent damage.

No, it is not a perfect way to discern such information, since you don't have acutal data (numbers, in this case) from simply seeing what abilities someone uses.

It's not bullshit, but it's not an exact science, either.

[Saphyron]

snip

As long there is health bar, it is a numbers game. If you want immersion, remove the health bars. And then make it so the boss dies when a fatal hit has been applied after literally removing body parts of the boss

[Dwill]

Looking at WoW, the most good intentioned and theoretically useful tools are used in despicable ways.
It ultimately does affect player behavior:
1 - Gear score/iLevel - used to segregate people, deny entry without being given a chance to prove yourself.
2 - Public Parsing - Encourages "meter padding" to top the charts, even if it means contributing poorly to the encounter.

With that in mind, I think that:
1 - Detailed parsing should be personal, private and non-broadcastable.
Something you use when training on dummies, etc.
2 - Broadcastable parsing should be less detailed and have a positive focus, oriented solely towards improvement, not boasting.
2.1 - Give players a Rating based on Performance vs Gear, instead of showing how much damage/healing they did.
2.2 - Give detailed information/filtering on how each player's damage/healing is distributed per target and per skill - so you can tell if they were doing their job or just trying to "pad the meters"
3 - Damage taken per hostile source.
4 - Time spent in "fire".

TL;DR
Helpful information is good.
E-Peen information is bad.

Like Wrecktangle mentioned, iLvL is already used within the game's party finder has a mean to segregate people so that's a pretty moot point. Also, information cannot be "e-peen", it's all about what the player makes of that information. You're asking for it to be oriented toward improvement and not boasting but the fact remain that no matter how much you simplify it, you totally can make it about boasting (E.G. Containment Bay Z1T9 : "i260 with a ranking of "A" minimum).

Rating instead of numerical values is next to totally worthless. A boss doesn't have "S" hp, it has a numerical value therefore numerical value serves much better as a metric to gauge one's performance. You can improve with them much better than a made up ranking system which will be anything but transparent therefore prone to the game's whim on how that person performed (had to soak by moving so the Black Mage lost too much DPS therefore decreasing his ranking or the other way around where it gives maximum ranking yet not doing enough damage to meet DPS checks).

Damage taken by source which also encompasses time spent in "fire" is already available via ACT in a decently detailed format, so is other information such has Outgoing/Incoming Buffs (which includes defensive CD)/Debuffs, Enemy damage taken by source which can be used to see who is padding and not contributing if you think it is currently an issue.

The information that you want is there, just let people use it correctly and punish people who abuses it (which isn't even remotely as common as people make it out to be).

Between all the visual and sound cues that spells and abilities in this game feature, yes, one can do what the person you quoted described to discern a rough idea as to whether or not someone's actually trying to put out decent damage.

No, it is not a perfect way to discern such information, since you don't have acutal data (numbers, in this case) from simply seeing what abilities someone uses.

It's not bullshit, but it's not an exact science, either.

You are correct that you can guess that the person might trying but the person might also be performing horribly in the process, that's why it's a terrible gauge. A summoner for example might have all of his DoTs on the target and use all of his Aetherflow stacks and on paper, that sounds great until you notice that the guy is performing horrible due to mistiming the use of his stacks, not refreshing his DoT in a timely way, Fester with two DoTs instead of three due to not waiting on Bio, refreshing dots during DWT outside of Tri-Disaster and I'm skipping some.

Point is that we technically have no way to tell them with proof to back you up that they are performing horribly and people saying it's easy to look at others and gauge their performance are, sorry to say, just full of shit.

[Nurvus]

Also, information cannot be "e-peen", it's all about what the player makes of that information.

I know, but if that information is "public", it inevitably creates all sorts of stigma.
Maybe ultimately I'm wrong and FFXIV community is fundamentally different from WoW's or LoL's.

But depending on what and how parsing is broadcast, the community mentality may slowly spiral down the same path.

Again, I'm not against parsing.
But it needs to be done right.

Developers are responsible for encouraging/discouraging certain behaviors, which is why games usually have restrictions on how frequently you can obtain certain end game rewards in order to prevent endlessly spamming the content that awards them in detriment of every other activity.
Same thing with games that have open world PvP - usually developers try to encourage it but also implement appropriate penalties to prevent griefing and other undesirable behaviors.

Likewise, developers need to implement a feature like parsing fully aware of possible outcomes in player behavior and determine which and how information is presented to minimize the negative outcomes.

- - - Updated - - -

Rating instead of numerical values is next to totally worthless. A boss doesn't have "S" hp, it has a numerical value therefore numerical value serves much better as a metric to gauge one's performance. You can improve with them much better than a made up ranking system which will be anything but transparent therefore prone to the game's whim on how that person performed (had to soak by moving so the Black Mage lost too much DPS therefore decreasing his ranking or the other way around where it gives maximum ranking yet not doing enough damage to meet DPS checks).

Personal parsing (non-broadcastable) would be useful with as much detailed (and numeric) information as possible.
But public parsing of your performance is better handled with a Rating of "performance" vs "gear", as it gives the useful information, without giving away the specific numbers that ultimately cause trouble.
Public parsing should give specific numeric details regarding the group as a whole, not individual players.

The whole group needs to know the group failed to beat a check by 100 dps.
The whole group does not need to know Player A did 20 less dps than Player B.

[Kazgrel]

Like Wrecktangle mentioned, iLvL is already used within the game's party finder has a mean to segregate people so that's a pretty moot point. Also, information cannot be "e-peen", it's all about what the player makes of that information. You're asking for it to be oriented toward improvement and not boasting but the fact remain that no matter how much you simplify it, you totally can make it about boasting (E.G. Containment Bay Z1T9 : "i260 with a ranking of "A" minimum).

Rating instead of numerical values is next to totally worthless. A boss doesn't have "S" hp, it has a numerical value therefore numerical value serves much better as a metric to gauge one's performance. You can improve with them much better than a made up ranking system which will be anything but transparent therefore prone to the game's whim on how that person performed (had to soak by moving so the Black Mage lost too much DPS therefore decreasing his ranking or the other way around where it gives maximum ranking yet not doing enough damage to meet DPS checks).

Damage taken by source which also encompasses time spent in "fire" is already available via ACT in a decently detailed format, so is other information such has Outgoing/Incoming Buffs (which includes defensive CD)/Debuffs, Enemy damage taken by source which can be used to see who is padding and not contributing if you think it is currently an issue.

The information that you want is there, just let people use it correctly and punish people who abuses it (which isn't even remotely as common as people make it out to be).




You are correct that you can guess that the person might trying but the person might also be performing horribly in the process, that's why it's a terrible gauge. A summoner for example might have all of his DoTs on the target and use all of his Aetherflow stacks and on paper, that sounds great until you notice that the guy is performing horrible due to mistiming the use of his stacks, not refreshing his DoT in a timely way, Fester with two DoTs instead of three due to not waiting on Bio, refreshing dots during DWT outside of Tri-Disaster and I'm skipping some.

Point is that we technically have no way to tell them with proof to back you up that they are performing horribly and people saying it's easy to look at others and gauge their performance are, sorry to say, just full of shit.

It's very easy to gauge someone when you look and see they are casting a spell once every 8-10 seconds or so. Those are generally the people that cause the most irritation, because they aren't even really trying.

Speaking for myself, I'm not terribly concerned with the person who does low-mid 1k dps in a current expert roulette. Not great, but not god awful, either. Yes, I routinely do a lot more than that (especially on SMN). Lot of times these folks have far less gear than I do, so I keep that in mind.

People doing triple digit dps at this point, though? Unless they are the tank or healer, then likely something is up. Those are the people that you can pick out even without parsing.

[Wrecktangle]

Personal parsing (non-broadcastable) would be useful with as much detailed (and numeric) information as possible.
But public parsing of your performance is better handled with a Rating of "performance" vs "gear", as it gives the useful information, without giving away the specific numbers that ultimately cause trouble.
Public parsing should give specific numeric details regarding the group as a whole, not individual players.

The whole group needs to know the group failed to beat a check by 100 dps.
The whole group does not need to know Player A did 20 less dps than Player B.

You're kidding right? I don't need to know that we as a group failed. That feedback is blatantly obvious by the entire group sitting on the floor or the fact that a 12 minute dungeon took almost 40 minutes. I need to know WHY it did. In order to ascertain the WHY I need all of the data. There is no refuting this. This is a basic fact of data analysis. You need all of the data to draw good conclusions.

The measure of gear vs. performance as a rating isn't a terrible idea (similar to ilvl parsing), but it's also incredibly nuanced and I'd prefer that the amount of development required in tuning that system be better spent on real content, especially when the industry standard of parsing is already very encompassing and beneficial.

Specific numbers do not cause problems. Please get that through your head. Data isn't evil. People are evil. You shouldn't be policing the data, that's a terrible stance to hold.

It's very easy to gauge someone when you look and see they are casting a spell once every 8-10 seconds or so. Those are generally the people that cause the most irritation, because they aren't even really trying.

Speaking for myself, I'm not terribly concerned with the person who does low-mid 1k dps in a current expert roulette. Not great, but not god awful, either. Yes, I routinely do a lot more than that (especially on SMN). Lot of times these folks have far less gear than I do, so I keep that in mind.

People doing triple digit dps at this point, though? Unless they are the tank or healer, then likely something is up. Those are the people that you can pick out even without parsing.

To be fair, as an elite melee DPS I can't have peoples effects turned on, do my job with 1s clearances on debuff/rebuff timers, focus on mechanics and positioning, and watch what 7 other players are doing intimately. A ranged/healer may have that luxury, but not all of us do. It also will never be as good of a data point as actual data.

[Zafire]

I parse on FFXIV. I don't think I've ever said anything to anyone about their bad dps though. Unless they're clearly a bot, I just let it slide if I can pick up the slack.

The only dps advice I ever gave was "Using Raiton does more damage single target than Doton" and I was really polite about it. The answer I got was "I don't care I like doton" and I said "okay! Just didn't know if you knew." Standing in shit will usually let you know if someone's an idiot before a parser will.

[Bullettime]

I'd also say there's a difference between someone clearly learning and people who just can't be arsed.

I'm generally constructive and pleasant in groups if you're the former. If I see a Dragoon who's not decked out in gear not using Blood or Heavy Thrust, I'll point out nicely that their DPS is heavily tied to those mechanics so may want to keep them up even on trash mobs. People either say "oh hey thanks sorry I'm still learning" or I get told "yeah fuck off it's just trash and I don't feel like it."

If it's the former, I'll gladly answer any other questions they may have and have even stuck around after a dungeon to help someone. If you're the latter though, I'm probably going to call you out as a parasite and vote kick you if possible. If you're decked out in 270 gear or outright admittedly know better, there's no excuse for certain performance errors and you do deserve to be called out or your group allowed to justifiably remove you from the party. It's just unfortunate that SE seems to disagree.

[The Casualty]

Specific numbers do not cause problems. Please get that through your head. Data isn't evil. People are evil. You shouldn't be policing the data, that's a terrible stance to hold.

Exactly. What keeps people in check is a hard stance not against the parsers, but griefing in general.

But let me be clear - Kicking people for poor performance is not griefing. You can remove people from a party without adding on layers of insults. A group is a shared experience, and every other member has the right to choose to not play with you.

[Binaris]

Honestly, if someones dps is so low that they deserve a kick, they may as well be kicked for being afk. I have kicked players for not performing to a basic level on caring and will continue to do so. Standing around expecting to be carried while autoattacking causes more harm to the community than me kicking your lazy ass.

I wont tell them. I wont say a dam thing. The aren't worth it. If they are sitting there at full tp/mp/whatever and doing less damage than the tank, they are close enough to afk that they deserve it. Take the next 20 min wait in queue to re-evaluate the amount of effort they want to put forth. And if that kick doesn't go through, I will ask for myself to be removed for difference of playstyle, and enjoy my instant queues as I will always have a tank adn healer available to play.

[Karamaru]

As a Tank I dont really care either way my WAR/DRK can pick up the slack in roulette if they mess up like most already said you can see who is doing alright or just plain bad, as long they do their part on boss fights and dont wipe I dont really care DPS are as disposable as tissue paper.

[Dwill]

The whole group needs to know the group failed to beat a check by 100 dps.
The whole group does not need to know Player A did 20 less dps than Player B.

Yes they do, how else would you know where to fix the issue ?