Chaos Blades changes

[Varlak]

. Everytime a change happens to DH you've got a bunch of people claiming haste is the best stat now, it never is.

I can't remember a single patch were poeple haven't claimed "Hast going to be our best stats" and yup, so far its always been shit.

Personaly I don't understand why it isn't. Warrior share the sames resource as us and are for some reason built around hast while the class feel like it should AIM toward single big hit rather then speed and DH announced as a mobile and fast paced class is dependent on Crit like a junky is dependent to meth.

[Occar]

Well, that's because crit is a triple dip stat.

We get abilities that make crits hit harder than they normally would (critical chaos and the one for blade dance). Criticals of our bread and butter attack (chaos strike/annihilation) is half cost with a crit. Put those together, and crit will remain the most important stat for the foreseeable future. It makes our most common attack (around 65% of damage for a CC build) hit harder, and cost less fury. Mastery was up there because it was also a double dip (critical strike damage, chaos blades strength which modified, mostly, critical strike damage). Mastery will drop to single dip, so it will be less important, but haste isn't becoming any more important.

[Deleted]

Let's be honest here is anyone even satisfied with these changes?

We're still going to play the same practically.

This feels like less of a change and more of the same.

Stormblood anyone?

I would be if they didn't say they were planning major mechanical changes and then go radio silent on Havoc

[InkarnateKT]

Wat

The new legendary ring grants the First Blood talent, it doesn't give you Chaos Blade per use of Blade Dance, lol.

http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/151798-chaos-theory

:thinking:

[Zil-Z]

http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/151798-chaos-theory

:thinking:

Haste now best stat?

:thinking:

[Rangar]

Haste now best stat?

:thinking:

Is this the new Havoc DH meme?

[Zil-Z]

Is this the new Havoc DH meme?

After reading this thread...



...yup.

[Zasriel]

Chaos blades had to be set to a static value or with gear it would become insane. Another reason is that the new Demon Hunter legendary will likely (based on the other proc cooldown ones datamined) be:

Blade Dance has a chance (probably ~15-20%) chance to give you Chaos blades for 6 seconds.

Mastery would be too sick.

Inkarnate predicts the future? Or works for Blizz? Hmmmmm

[InkarnateKT]

Inkarnate predicts the future? Or works for Blizz? Hmmmmm

Option 3, they saw my suggestion and liked it!

[SnorlaxJeng]

Option 3, they saw my suggestion and liked it!

Option 3 was Hmmmmm

Anyways back to the topic. Haste is also double dip stat if you can see it from the angle where it does not directly buff your damage per hit but increases the frequency of almost EVERYTHING.

-Haste causes more Chaos Strikes per minute, which interacts with Critical to generate more fury refunds.
-Haste provides more fury generation via generators and CD reduction.
-Haste provides even more benefit to throughput if paired with Delusions of Grandeur.
-Haste has a better % benefit per stat point compared to Versatility, but lower than Critical. (Reason why Critical is WAY AHEAD)

7.2.5 DH has a very high possibility of GCD lock based on built and high end gearing. For example where your critical refund is so reliable that you can consume faster than you generate. Thus leading to overflow fury.

Same can be said for people who call Haste shit when it isn't. And I've never once said Versa was shit - I did mention Versa is strong only when you have over-inflated overall stat weights and damage multipliers. Where Chaos Blades has been put down a notch it has affected both Haste and Versatility, but Versatility took the slightly harder hit.

[Achie]

I can't remember a single patch were poeple haven't claimed "Hast going to be our best stats" and yup, so far its always been shit.

Personaly I don't understand why it isn't. Warrior share the sames resource as us and are for some reason built around hast while the class feel like it should AIM toward single big hit rather then speed and DH announced as a mobile and fast paced class is dependent on Crit like a junky is dependent to meth.

Omg this. I wish we would just stack haste and get over the RNG spec already.
But I guess Blizzard knows what is fun and we don't
Also, First Blood is fun and that's why we get it stuck up our arses in every possible way. Because it's fun.
/s

[Deix-EU]

We never said haste was or will be "awesome", but here is another proof their goal is to leverage our need for mastery/crit or vers heavily and be more friendly with haste. They do know it serves for little purpose right now and can have an impact later on overall scalability.
They clearly are trying to strive us toward more utility with haste, it's obvious for the blind. It doesn't mean it will be "OP", just more in line with other one scalability.

People here on mmo champ are too much lefty brainy for some and don't see the overall picture sometimes. Yet seeing the overall picture doesn't mean you're agree of course.
Time and sims will tell for sure. If I was 5 years ago and more, I would have already made my own sims / spreadsheet. Don't have anymore time to do so + I learned to get good intuitive solving skills while I admit when I'm wrong actually.

I remember a day I told in this exact forum to those "discord" guys "I foresee Chaos Cleave even with the nerf will come again at the end of 7.2 end gear" and yet they were like "I doubt sim will tell us Chaos Cleave becomes a thing again. Nerf is too much". See ? Lefty lefty knock knock.

[Enentari]

Haste has always been not that good for us, and will likely be in 7.2.5 for sure. What pple forget is that we need like a HUGE amount of haste to even feeling the effect... just like today.

For example:

-pple loose their mind because of dblades changes. More AA, aka more 100% procs on dblades, aka more fury. So more haste = more AA = more fury? On the paper, yup (but then, explain me why you don't go full haste now, because it's the same on live, with a 60% proc instead). In fact, you need around 3400 haste to gain 1 swing/min... so 6800 for 2 more swings/min, 10200 for 3 (for pple who really REALLY like haste). I think we'll likely have some more crit instead, you don't think?^^

-You would say "But, haste decrease BD's cd, so it's surely good!" and "With our new orange cloak, decrease BD's CD is awesome, that means more BD!". That's true, again, on the paper. In fact, you need 9375 haste to put BD's CD from 10 sec to 8 sec. Once again, how will you manage to have so much haste, and on the other side, have 50+ crit and some versa for your core dps and your regen?

=> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...0P8/edit#gid=0 if you want the exel doc made by Kib.

[Deix-EU]

Haste has always been not that good for us, and will likely be in 7.2.5 for sure. What pple forget is that we need like a HUGE amount of haste to even feeling the effect... just like today.

For example:

-pple loose their mind because of dblades changes. More AA, aka more 100% procs on dblades, aka more fury. So more haste = more AA = more fury? On the paper, yup (but then, explain me why you don't go full haste now, because it's the same on live, with a 60% proc instead). In fact, you need around 3400 haste to gain 1 swing/min... so 6800 for 2 more swings/min, 10200 for 3 (for pple who really REALLY like haste). I think we'll likely have some more crit instead, you don't think?^^

-You would say "But, haste decrease BD's cd, so it's surely good!" and "With our new orange cloak, decrease BD's CD is awesome, that means more BD!". That's true, again, on the paper. In fact, you need 9375 haste to put BD's CD from 10 sec to 8 sec. Once again, how will you manage to have so much haste, and on the other side, have 50+ crit and some versa for your core dps and your regen?

=> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...0P8/edit#gid=0 if you want the exel doc made by Kib.

Nope, there are even people speaking only about fury gen but there is more which CAN POSSIBLY rise up the haste pound even more than now (and of course it will, even a blind can see it since there will be more benefits toward haste things later).
1) DB 100% well yeah it's a thing but this is not the major case while the mathematical benefit is higher over the course of a fight length
2) Emphasis even more en BD usage: T20 2PC AND 4PC (I say bullshit again to those who preach for T19... this will be for 2% of DH getting a titanprocced mythic T19... when you get 920 I don't see T19 a thing and blizz will shut this up anyway cause they lead the way, we follow)
3) New ring allowing for possiblty Throw Glaive handling: more pound to haste (yeah yeah OK Chaos Cleave, maybe, maybe not, will depend of gear staging)
4) More future fury spending reliability = we want less downtimes in our already RNG gameplay => benefit haste, even the little
5) Mastery pound lowering because of no T20 4P + nerf to mastery scaling on Chaos Blade => Increase the haste pound TOWARD mastery one even more
6) More stats in T20
7) Now this new legendary: not much a thing but joins the 2)

Doing maths over incomplete hypothesis is pointless so we'll wait for simcraft to be updated with gameplay, items, changes etc.
There will be much to change in it.

[Achie]

ATM it seems the stats weights are crit > haste > vers >= agi > mastery
Data from Kib @ Fel Hammer disc.
Also leggos sims by Kib too:
https://images.discordapp.net/.eJwFw...07pvIg61T3SYEs

[SnorlaxJeng]

Just to throw this note out there. At least for Demon Blades users.

The new legendary cloak also boost our fury generation, due to Chaos Blade AA not being able to miss, it would make Demon Blades fury generation not being penalized by AA swing rules. Again we will be funneled towards using Chaos Cleave once we reliably have excess 20 fury on every Blade Dance where the benefit is negligible.

[Musta]

After reading this.... i have absolutely no clue what to do with my stats on 7.2.5...

[Shamed]

I put on 11% haste and simmed myself with latest PTR-build and this was the result (i'm also 10/10 mythic if that matters, 911 ilvl tho). https://gyazo.com/4ec3b8961e4a39dbc6b1c273cd82552b

Yeah so haste has a similar value to now then, fair enough. Looks like you still want 10-12% though.

I've never had more than 9% haste and have NEVER had haste sim ahead of ANY stat.

- - - Updated - - -



Provide, an Armory, or logs and someone might believe you, but all you've done is say "I did this and got this result" well I took a dump earlier and got a quarter pound of pure 24k gold out of my ass, no I wont provide proof, and yes Ill basically tell you stupid things like "It has nothing to do with feels, it is results, weightings and values from thousands of sims...
Like I mean you can keep believing there is no haste required to reach maximum dps potential, but I would love to see some log results of this... Because currently I am parsing quite well with 13% haste, 41% crit and 33% mast" but to argue my point, but I'll never produce any proof. See your problem yet? No one has yet to show a single sim putting haste into even a viable weighting to stack it over something else.

Yeah sure man no problems, here is my current armory link: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...mourne/shaymed
Here is my logs before i transferred to Frostmourne: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...thilas/shaymed
And here are my logs after transfer, and on the current server I am on: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...mourne/shaymed
(WTB Bracers lol).

Would love to see your sim results.

Also, no one says that Haste is not vauable at all. Of course it has a value that is as high as/higher than Versa/agility on high levels of gear, but there never has been a "cap" of any kind for it and it is not even close to being as good as Mastery/Crit.

I never said that we should be stacking haste etc, etc. But there is definitely a threshold that you want to be at, it being around 10-13%. So people who say haste is trash we don't need it at all should probably keep their opinions to themselves unless they can back it up with sims and logs. Anyway, here is a screenshot of my current sim, with values and pawn string:
i.imgur.com/0fQJpFE.png

Note that I am at the point where secondary stats are above agi. Back when I was progging when i had 6% haste at one point my pawn and sims were telling me to even gem haste, because it was so low. I used to think haste was dogshit too, but i seriously have noticed a difference when I have been aiming to keep a balance of crit and haste (40% and 12.5%) while stacking mastery after I have met these requirements.

I also just read the last page of this thread and it's looking like some people are coming back with sim results saying Crit > Haste. So it looks like my opinions and theories are probably correct.

EDIT: So since I am a new account it won't let me post links... Will try and find a solution around it.

[Fordprefect]

i got all legendaries with bell+chest with %48 crit %9 haste %38 mastery with 2 meta relics and 1 critical chaos relic (due to ilvl i stacked meta relics. and with my current gear with delusions (as its simming best) haste simming over EVERYTHING. this is my top gear btw theres no better simming combination in my bags. ye haste is not the best stat even its best for me atm. but no you need to have around %10. btw same gear with belt instead of delusions haste is still best.

aidbots.com/simbot/report/BJFPgXNb-

edit: im not allowed to post links. fix the link yourself

[Achie]

I never said that we should be stacking haste etc, etc. But there is definitely a threshold that you want to be at, it being around 10-13%. So people who say haste is trash we don't need it at all should probably keep their opinions to themselves unless they can back it up with sims and logs. Anyway, here is a screenshot of my current sim, with values and pawn string:
i.imgur.com/0fQJpFE.png

Note that I am at the point where secondary stats are above agi. Back when I was progging when i had 6% haste at one point my pawn and sims were telling me to even gem haste, because it was so low. I used to think haste was dogshit too, but i seriously have noticed a difference when I have been aiming to keep a balance of crit and haste (40% and 12.5%) while stacking mastery after I have met these requirements.

I also just read the last page of this thread and it's looking like some people are coming back with sim results saying Crit > Haste. So it looks like my opinions and theories are probably correct.

The new stat weights come after a new patch with massive changes as usual. Nobody knows if haste is gonna be good or bad. It looks like it's gonna be better than it actually is. Still just speculation.

Just because you get personal stat weights favoring haste doesn't mean there is a secret treshold you want to achieve. It's literally anecdotycal.

I don't get why people keep preaching this after every patch. And no, I won't keep my opinion to myself because that would be spreading misinformation. Just do yourself a favor and start checking the class discord every once in a while.