Question about survival hunters

[Doffen]

Oh by the way, it's only listed 4 because there are SIGNIFICANTLY LESS PARSES. That is an average intake.

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Umm, there's a 99% chance I'll have Cutting Edge Tomorrow, no you don't know who I am lmfao.

1% if somehow my guild doesn't manage to kill it at all even though it's farm content. Idiot.

No I have seen you on the forums and how you respond :P

Gl with infraction

[Shakou]

I went survival for Starboi, Eli and Gul'dan while progressing and I did my job well on those 3, stop beeing a dickhead.

Stop lying.

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No I have seen you on the forums and how you respond :P

Gl with infraction

What are you like 12?

Can you just wear a sign that says you're 12 so we know not to talk to you?

[Doffen]

Stop lying.

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What are you like 12?

Can you just wear a sign that says you're 12 so we know not to talk to you?

Thanks for making my(and others) day

[kennytheone]

You main a Demon Hunter. Quelle surprise.

Still my hunter is same ilvl and yesterday i've completed the survival challenge for the skin on hunter too.

[Trapstarz]

Stop lying.

It's fricking enough nice addition to my ignore list

[ItachiZaku]

So why dont they have any baseline +5% to parry or dodge like most melee classes?

We have a pet that'll mostly tank for us, so "we" don't need the parry/dodge.

[Bepples]

Still my hunter is same ilvl and yesterday i've completed the survival challenge for the skin on hunter too.

I don't care. People like you are proof that Survival's redesign was made for people who didn't main Hunters at the expense of people who did.

[kennytheone]

I don't care. People like you are proof that Survival's redesign was made for people who didn't main Hunters at the expense of people who did.

Still played the hunter in Mop and Wod and yes survival was amazing in mop but just because it had good dmg, gameplay was allmost exactly as mm so the loss is not that big...what most of you remember was the fotm class that was survival hunter not the way you had to play it you just remembered beeing top dps...the mechanic of survival and mm was allways very similar

[Bepples]

Still played the hunter in Mop and Wod and yes survival was amazing in mop but just because it had good dmg, gameplay was allmost exactly as mm so the loss is not that big...what most of you remember was the fotm class that was survival hunter not the way you had to play it you just remembered beeing top dps...the mechanic of survival and mm was allways very similar

This again?

Survival was a head in population at times when it wasn't ahead in damage. For example, it was the most popular Hunter spec in 5.4 despite BM being stronger, and it was more popular than MM in 6.0 despite MM being stronger.

SV and MM were, as of WoD, as distinct as the mage specs. Multi-Shot was literally the only baseline ability they shared. Guess what: BM and MM still share Multi-Shot today.

[Charo]

This again?

Survival was a head in population at times when it wasn't ahead in damage. For example, it was the most popular Hunter spec in 5.4 despite BM being stronger, and it was more popular than MM in 6.0 despite MM being stronger.

SV and MM were, as of WoD, as distinct as the mage specs. Multi-Shot was literally the only baseline ability they shared. Guess what: BM and MM still share Multi-Shot today.

Arcane Shot? Steady Shot and Cobra Shot were identical, the various utility shots, traps.

[Eapoe]

This again?

Survival was a head in population at times when it wasn't ahead in damage. For example, it was the most popular Hunter spec in 5.4 despite BM being stronger, and it was more popular than MM in 6.0 despite MM being stronger.

SV and MM were, as of WoD, as distinct as the mage specs. Multi-Shot was literally the only baseline ability they shared. Guess what: BM and MM still share Multi-Shot today.

Prior to WoD changes (I.e. Removing Rapid Fire and Kill Shot), this is what the 3 specs did:
BM=use RF, use BW, use KC, spam AS, use CS to build focus, use KC on CD, spam AS, use CS to build focus
MM=use RF, use ChS, spam AS, use SS to build focus, use ChS on CD, spam AS, use SS to build focus
SV=use RF, use ES, use BA, spam AS, use CS to build focus, use ES/BA on CD, spam AS, use CS to build focus
Do you see why people say they play the same? Sure, they had a few intricacies such as Frenzy for BM that you would use at specific times, and SV having BA as well as traps for AoE other than spamming Multishot and even having a proc for extra ES, but the basic rotation and playstyle was so close that people say it was the same. Anyone not in denial will admit that. Very few classes had that level of homgenization, and with Blizzard's direction of diversity even fewer do now.
Other than Rogues, no other class I can think of had that level of similarity between all the specs. Even mages, who you've used as an example, were different enough that they can't be used as an example.

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You have absolutely no data to prove that at all.

And really, it's this simple, It's a half-baked spec that does absolutely nothing that other melee specs do not do better.


All of this.

By the way just so we're clear I've not only "tried" Survival, but I've tried to make it work and it's just plain clunky and terrible. But still my survival gear set is good enough that I could technically be raiding in my 10/10 mythic guild as Survival.

Except no Mythic Guild in their right mind would go with it, and no good player would want to.

Except that the world 3rd kill (I believe, might have been 4th) on Guldan mythic had a SV Hunter that stated it was much better than the other 2 specs for that fight. So your arguement about "no good..." is kind of moot.
Now, things have changed since then as new golds were made for weapons and power shifts between specs since then, and that's not in denial.

[Bepples]

Arcane Shot? Steady Shot and Cobra Shot were identical, the various utility shots, traps.

Arcane Shot was shared with BM, not MM.

Casted focus generators were core to the class, just as how casted signatures are core to mages (Fireball, Frost Bolt, Arcane Blast). As were all the utilities (Survival also had enhanced traps).

This "every spec needs to be it's own class" is a Legion idea; before Legion you had functionality that was baseline to the whole class... and that was fine. They are called specialisations for a reason. Every class had core functionality shared by all specs, hence my comparison to Mages because they also have 3 ranged specs that are "the same" if you generalise to a high degree but play differently in practice. If Blizzard felt they were too similar, they could have easily added mechanics to Survival to further differentiate it rather than removing it entirely. Deleting it and replacing it with a melee spec is flat-out moronic. Plus, now instead of being too similar to the other 2 Hunter specs, it is now too similar to the other 12 melee specs. A much harder problem to fix.

[Deleted]

They should give back our old survival hunter already :/

Or make the current survival a 4th spec! i really see no point in "removing" a spec some people enjoyed!

[Bepples]

Prior to WoD changes

I didn't read beyond those words because when you argue that the specs are too similar, you are talking about the present; not some arbitrary time in the past.

Blizzard's main argument for their Legion Hunter changes was “The challenge is that while all three specs deliver that basic fantasy, the distinction between them is fairly minimal”. IS fairly minimal. That's the present tense. That was said in November in 2015. That's Warlords of Draenor, and therefore that is the standard for any discussion on the merits of this "every spec has to be its own class" hysteria that has gripped Blizzard and the playerbase since Legion was announced.

OT: Accidentally posted this separately rather than editing my last post, and MMO-champion won't delete this one for some reason. Oh, well.

[Shakou]

Except that the world 3rd kill (I believe, might have been 4th) on Guldan mythic had a SV Hunter that stated it was much better than the other 2 specs for that fight.

Method had 3 hunters on their first kill and I can tell you for sure 100% based on how much AP those characters have that out of those 3 only 1 of them has a survival spec....which he has in fact spent less ap in. You can actually tell because of how much ap they have and how it's allocated. For fucks sake, 2 of them have less ap than me, and 1 has less tha I had pre 7.2 with only one spec max'd about and they are all BM/MM spec'd. >.>

The only exception is Nnoggah, and guess what? 1 exception out of 3. And only because they needed the melee, not because oh man this spec is dope and more people should try it and they don't base the things we're talking about here based on one dude in a top 3 in the world guild anyways. But that being said that one survival hunter did a whopping .5% more dmg on the fight in exchange for no dealing with any mechanics.

World 4th was From Scratch - Eu Sargeras, they didn't have a Survival hunter in their group on their first or any kill that's pure nonsense. As the only hunter who was on that kill is most definitely not survival and most definitely hasn't even invested ap much at all in an off spec.

https://www.wowprogress.com/character/eu/sargeras/Teebg

And there is definitely not a hunter in Limit that's done this beyond screwing around, I know this because I fucking play on US Illidan and I have for oh you know since it opened?

Why do you insist on making shit up or being selective about what facts you cite to make your point? Because you have a bias. You can fucking see who was in these kills on wowprogress you know? You can clearly see that there are no mythic Gul'dan parses with a survival hunter up that weren't farm kills?

[Tehterokkar]

Except that the world 3rd kill (I believe, might have been 4th) on Guldan mythic had a SV Hunter that stated it was much better than the other 2 specs for that fight. So your arguement about "no good..." is kind of moot.
Now, things have changed since then as new golds were made for weapons and power shifts between specs since then, and that's not in denial.

Survival is the best spec for Gul'dan for doing the mechanics when you had low gear. MM/BM are pretty useless in the last phase.

1. Survival has the best burst AoE out of the 3 specs thanks to Butchery(and Hellcarver relics).
2. Survival is Melee, which are the only ones who can damage Parasites, which again, need burst AoE.
3. Ranged spots are best filled with Multi-dotters due to last phase having consistently 3 targets up.

Now this was all before you plebs went there with 5-10 iLvl higher baseline gear and new traits, now you can use pretty much any comp as long as it has 3-4 good burst AoE Melee specs.

[Eapoe]

Method had 3 hunters on their first kill and I can tell you for sure 100% based on how much AP those characters have that out of those 3 only 1 of them has a survival spec....which he has in fact spent less ap in. You can actually tell because of how much ap they have and how it's allocated. For fucks sake, 2 of them have less ap than me, and 1 has less tha I had pre 7.2 with only one spec max'd about and they are all BM/MM spec'd. >.>

The only exception is Nnoggah, and guess what? 1 exception out of 3. And only because they needed the melee, not because oh man this spec is dope and more people should try it and they don't base the things we're talking about here based on one dude in a top 3 in the world guild anyways. But that being said that one survival hunter did a whopping .5% more dmg on the fight in exchange for no dealing with any mechanics.

World 4th was From Scratch - Eu Sargeras, they didn't have a Survival hunter in their group on their first or any kill that's pure nonsense. As the only hunter who was on that kill is most definitely not survival and most definitely hasn't even invested ap much at all in an off spec.

https://www.wowprogress.com/character/eu/sargeras/Teebg

And there is definitely not a hunter in Limit that's done this beyond screwing around, I know this because I fucking play on US Illidan and I have for oh you know since it opened?

Why do you insist on making shit up or being selective about what facts you cite to make your point? Because you have a bias. You can fucking see who was in these kills on wowprogress you know? You can clearly see that there are no mythic Gul'dan parses with a survival hunter up that weren't farm kills?

So I post the world 3rd kill, maybe 4th, had a SV hunter, to which you backed that up by pointing out Nnoggah and then say I'm a liar and making things up? That's beyond ridiculous. You're arguing the point you just proved. That a mythic guild would take a SV Hunter and that a good player WOULD play it if wanted/necessary.
Nnoggah also came into that forum and provided reasons why he/she did it, and posted that they would have done it on other bosses as well if they knew how well it would have turned out.
All that's happened between my post and yours was I refuted a claim about SV being allowed into progression and you provided information supporting that, so thank you.

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Survival is the best spec for Gul'dan for doing the mechanics when you had low gear. MM/BM are pretty useless in the last phase.

1. Survival has the best burst AoE out of the 3 specs thanks to Butchery(and Hellcarver relics).
2. Survival is Melee, which are the only ones who can damage Parasites, which again, need burst AoE.
3. Ranged spots are best filled with Multi-dotters due to last phase having consistently 3 targets up.

Now this was all before you plebs went there with 5-10 iLvl higher baseline gear and new traits, now you can use pretty much any comp as long as it has 3-4 good burst AoE Melee specs.

Not sure if you are arguing with my post or supporting it as you are unclear.
As with Shakou, I posted something, you kind of backed it up with what you posted, but then went on like you are arguing that issue.
As I said, SV was in for a progression kill (on one of the hardest fights at the time), it performed well, and things have changed since then.

[Shakou]

So I post the world 3rd kill, maybe 4th, had a SV hunter, to which you backed that up by pointing out Nnoggah and then say I'm a liar and making things up? That's beyond ridiculous.

It's not even ridiculous let alone beyond, one hunter in a top in the world guild being in a position where he is able to play Survival is not evidence that Survival is actually good.

You people are arguing it's actually one of the best specs in the game, and that's rubbish. The guy only did .5% more dmg than other hunters in his raid, and that's saying something considering he was basically able to sit there and dps the whole time.

If it was good or better on average than any other melee this wouldn't be up for debate, but it's just not. It's not even notably better than the ranged specs, less than a 1% dmg done (if played perfectly) difference for not doing the mechanics is not "way way better".

I'll give you this much, the situation a little different than survival is so bad that youjust don't bring it into progression, but it's really not much better than that. If you have other options why would you ever do it? You're not ever going to bench any other melee over them. Overall the arguments here are a lot more nuanced than you give them credit for no one here is saying "I don't like survival therefore it's bad"

But you are saying that because of late tier parses survival isn't bad. Bruh, like even the handful of top tier players that are currently doing it aren't saying it's some amazing spec that everyone else is just overlooking cuz omg blizz melee hunter!

The truth is something more like this: even if a spec does more dmg people will flat out not play it if the class is not intuitive and generally feels awkward to play. This would not be the first time it's happened.

Here is the real bottom line, it ain't about that one dude that can do that one amazing parse and like wow this spec is better than all the others! It's about what is the most reliable top damage spec. The answer is beast mastery. There is no contest.

[Tehterokkar]

You people are arguing it's actually one of the best specs in the game, and that's rubbish. The guy only did .5% more dmg than other hunters in his raid, and that's saying something considering he was basically able to sit there and dps the whole time.

It's clear you have never raided at the top 10 level, or even have the same mindset.

Nnoggah played Survival because their guild needed someone to do a specific job. That is how it works in those guilds. If there is a spec in the game that somehow makes a fight easier, they will use that spec.

Survival has 1 of the biggest(if not the biggest with the right gear) burst AoEs in the game. And Gul'dan is an encounter that requires it(or did, now with gear it's whatever).

There is no doubt that Survival is not as strong as the other 2 specs overall(or I should say it's harder to get fullest potential out of it), but on some fights it fits a very niche role that makes it good. And Gul'dan is one of those fights.

There are many many cases in the history of world first raiding in WoW that has seen specs being used to make encounters much easier. Rogues have been up there countless times in the list to abuse cheat death, cloak of shadows or shadowstep, but there are others.

On Blackhand, having 3 or 4 Balance Druids made the Balcony cleaning a total joke.
Siegecrafter Blackfuse's belt mechanic was usually done by a group of 3-4 Hunters primarily.
Lei Shen was made significantly easier with 3 or 4 Warlocks due to Gateways and best Burst AoE in the game(at that time).

These are just a few examples, but I hope you get the point. Even if a spec is sub-optimal otherwise in current tuning, it can have a niche that can break an encounter.

[Shakou]

It's clear you have never raided at the top 10 level, or even have the same mindset.

Nnoggah played Survival because their guild needed someone to do a specific job. That is how it works in those guilds.

What's clear is you are a giant blowhard.

No one in this thread ever disputed anything like this at all and furthermore no one in here is arguing what you are either, they are saying because they can dig up a handful of good survival parses, survival is actually a much stronger spec than it has a reputation for.

I'm saying this is really not complicated stuff. Sure sometimes someone is brought in for a very specific niche role, but that's not really the case here with them taking a Survival hunter. They took what they had available in their raid group. That's what they did, and being a top in the world rated guild they were able to make a less than optimal comp work. Although, maybe if they had a more ideal comp it wouldn't have been a world third kill. Ever think of that?