Tinkers In Our Future?

[Ielenia]

I still said they're not the same orcs.

And like I said before, they were using Goblin tech. There is no High level Orc technology anywhere in WoW.

You keep avoiding to address two important things: first, the fact that, thanks to the Iron Horde, the idea of a mechanized, industrialized orc is not going to be, as you put it, 'jarring'; and second, if implemented, the class is very unlikely to be designed differently for each faction, or worse, for each race, just like all the other races in the game, so saying Iron Horde was using goblin tech doesn't carry much weight as an argument.

In my opinion, at best, it's going to be generic-looking, just like the rest of the classes, maybe with one or two flavor abilities that differ just in graphics but not in functionality.

I've already explained it;

No, you didn't. You explained why gnomes tend to do it, but you never touched upon the issue why would any other non-g race would not use a mech, should their engineers were to head into battle.

Take the Broken shore cinematic for example; Varian and Genn were fighting hand to hand, while Gelbin was piloting a mech.

Well, gee. Maybe... just maybe... it's because Gelbin is the only engineer of the three?

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Well not only that, but stuffing a Draenei or Orc into a mech would look pretty silly.

No more silly than goblins and gnomes. Currently present rideable golems in the game proved that.

Blizzard said a long time ago that if the Tinker was ever implemented, it couldn't be too "whimsical" or in other words silly-looking. Gnomes and Goblins don't look silly piloting mechs. Every other race does.

Goblins and gnomes are 'silly' by design. Even while piloting mechs. None of the races look 'silly', otherwise those mechs mounts wouldn't be so famous, wouldn't it?

[Deleted]

There is really someone that believe that Blizzard will release another class with 4 spec? LoL.

I think it's way way way more plausible that they will follow DH model, with 2 spec. If you think of it, it's a win win choice. I barely see DH's complaining about this. And, as i said in another thread, Blizzard cuold come up with a lot of classes if they followe the 2 spec way.

To be honest, and brave, i wuold rather see some classes pruned of spec, just to let them flow, in a better way, in new classes. Just think about DH and Warlock, but also a long discussed class as the Necromancer and DK.

[Teriz]

You keep avoiding to address two important things: first, the fact that, thanks to the Iron Horde, the idea of a mechanized, industrialized orc is not going to be, as you put it, 'jarring'; and second, if implemented, the class is very unlikely to be designed differently for each faction, or worse, for each race, just like all the other races in the game, so saying Iron Horde was using goblin tech doesn't carry much weight as an argument.

1. Industrialized Orcs with guns and bombs is still a pretty big leap to riding around in mech armor.
2.Horde and Alliance Druids have race specific forms. It stands to reason that Blizzard would make Goblins and Gnomes have specific mech armor to highlight the difference between Goblin and Gnome tech. Additionally, Horde and Alliance Shaman have different forms of Bloodlust/Heroism, so nothing stops Blizzard from doing the same for a Tinker class, ESPECIALLY if its limited to just two races.

No, you didn't. You explained why gnomes tend to do it, but you never touched upon the issue why would any other non-g race would not use a mech, should their engineers were to head into battle.

1. Other races don't need to do it, because they have suitable size and strength.
2. Other races lack the engineering know-how to build those types of machines. Lore-wise, the other races are FAR below the technological prowess of Goblins and Gnomes.

Well, gee. Maybe... just maybe... it's because Gelbin is the only engineer of the three?

Gazlowe is also an engineer.

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No more silly than goblins and gnomes. Currently present rideable golems in the game proved that.

Which is considered something silly and non-canon. There's a big difference between player characters crafting mech mount vanity items, and actual corps of non-Gnome and Goblins riding around in mechanical suits.

Goblins and gnomes are 'silly' by design. Even while piloting mechs. None of the races look 'silly', otherwise those mechs mounts wouldn't be so famous, wouldn't it?

That's your opinion. I would say that the generally favorable view of Gelbin piloting a mech in Broken Shore disproves that opinion.

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There is really someone that believe that Blizzard will release another class with 4 spec? LoL.

I think it's way way way more plausible that they will follow DH model, with 2 spec. If you think of it, it's a win win choice. I barely see DH's complaining about this. And, as i said in another thread, Blizzard cuold come up with a lot of classes if they followe the 2 spec way.

To be honest, and brave, i wuold rather see some classes pruned of spec, just to let them flow, in a better way, in new classes. Just think about DH and Warlock, but also a long discussed class as the Necromancer and DK.

According to the leak, that may be the case. However, reports are that Blizzard doesn't want to release another 2 spec class, and may push for the Tinker to be 3 specs. I certainly hope they do. I found the Demon Hunter class to be unbelievably shallow.

[Ielenia]

1. Industrialized Orcs with guns and bombs is still a pretty big leap to riding around in mech armor.

Yet that has already happened.

2.Horde and Alliance Druids have race specific forms. It stands to reason that Blizzard would make Goblins and Gnomes have specific mech armor to highlight the difference between Goblin and Gnome tech.

They have different forms simply because Blizzard wanted to give the druid races some customization, since they're supposed to be in shapeshifted form most (if not all) of the time during combat, and to further differentiate them from animal forms already existent in the game. As for the tech class, it is very unlikely they'll go around in mech all the time, so there is no reason to make them super customizable or even different from each other.

Additionally, Horde and Alliance Shaman have different forms of Bloodlust/Heroism, so nothing stops Blizzard from doing the same for a Tinker class, ESPECIALLY if its limited to just two races.

The only reason that happened is because 'bloodlust' is unfit for the Alliance general theme of being civilized and heroic, not because they actually intended to make both skills different.

1. Other races don't need to do it, because they have suitable size and strength.

That is an asinine, nonsensical reason. As if being bigger and stronger somehow makes them more resistant to spells, blades and arrows. It doesn't. If anything, it makes them a better target. Being bigger is all the more reason to get better armor and protection.

2. Other races lack the engineering know-how to build those types of machines.

You constantly make that claim, yet you haven't given a single shred of evidence of that so far, and no, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Especially considering that: a) orcs built a giant tank; b) a dwarf could rig a mech to allow the player to use it; and c) dwarves are known for being able to make tanks.

Gazlowe is also an engineer.

So what? I was talking about Genn, Varian and Gelbin, if you bothered to read.

Which is considered something silly

By whom? You? A bucket-load of people consider the goblins and gnomes silly, and that is reflected in their low representation.

and non-canon.

Can I see the proof of that? Just because it goes against your arguments doesn't mean it's non-canon. I want to see some proof of that. An official webpage excerpt (with a link to the page itself), or a blue forum post (again with the link), or some wow dev tweet (ditto).

That's your opinion.

And opinion that is greatly reflected by other people's if the poor representation of gnomes and goblins are anything to go by.

I would say that the generally favorable view of Gelbin piloting a mech in Broken Shore disproves that opinion.

And the poor representation of gnomes and goblins in the game disprove yours. Also, "generally favorable"? How more vague can you be?

[Teriz]

Yet that has already happened.

Yes, riding in Goblin tech, not Orc tech.

They have different forms simply because Blizzard wanted to give the druid races some customization, since they're supposed to be in shapeshifted form most (if not all) of the time during combat, and to further differentiate them from animal forms already existent in the game. As for the tech class, it is very unlikely they'll go around in mech all the time, so there is no reason to make them super customizable or even different from each other.

Except the fact that Goblins and Gnomes have very different styles of tech.

BTW, Demon Hunters also got different metamophosis models for both their races as well. Seems quite common for highly limited race optioned classes to get a few more perks.

The only reason that happened is because 'bloodlust' is unfit for the Alliance general theme of being civilized and heroic, not because they actually intended to make both skills different.

And each Shaman race getting their own totems? Interesting that all of these classes get levels of racial customization, yet for some reason Tinkers aren't good enough to get the same treatment?

That is an asinine, nonsensical reason. As if being bigger and stronger somehow makes them more resistant to spells, blades and arrows. It doesn't. If anything, it makes them a better target. Being bigger is all the more reason to get better armor and protection.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

You constantly make that claim, yet you haven't given a single shred of evidence of that so far, and no, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Especially considering that: a) orcs built a giant tank; b) a dwarf could rig a mech to allow the player to use it; and c) dwarves are known for being able to make tanks.

You mean outside of the evidence showcased by the established tech of each race, which has been established as being FAR below that of Gnomes and Goblins?

So what? I was talking about Genn, Varian and Gelbin, if you bothered to read.

Which is fine, but its quite odd (using your argument) that all the Alliance and Horde races have advanced technology, yet not a single non-Gnome or Goblin had advanced tech anywhere during the invasion. Shouldn't we be seeing advanced tech everywhere?

By whom? You? A bucket-load of people consider the goblins and gnomes silly, and that is reflected in their low representation.

By the large amount of tinker threads that were created after that cinematic appeared.

Can I see the proof of that? Just because it goes against your arguments doesn't mean it's non-canon. I want to see some proof of that. An official webpage excerpt (with a link to the page itself), or a blue forum post (again with the link), or some wow dev tweet (ditto).

Feel free to find a non goblin or gnome from the alliance or horde that's building and piloting a mech. As I said, the Sky Golem has been available since MoP, and both the Goblins and Gnomes have advanced their mech designs. The other races? Nothing.

And the poor representation of gnomes and goblins in the game disprove yours. Also, "generally favorable"? How more vague can you be?

Relevance?

[Ielenia]

Yes, riding in Goblin tech, not Orc tech.

Stop the goalpost moving. It's an orc piloting a mech, and contrary to your opinion, it doesn't look silly or jarring.

Except the fact that Goblins and Gnomes have very different styles of tech.

They... really don't. They build basically the same machines and everything. The only difference between them is that goblins are a bit less concerned about safety when building something.

BTW, Demon Hunters also got different metamophosis models for both their races as well. Seems quite common for highly limited race optioned classes to get a few more perks.

Because their bodies get transformed, not unlike the druid's case. If anything, in this case, the tech class will very likely take after the shaman class with the Ascendance talent: same form for all races, maybe varying in spec.

And each Shaman race getting their own totems?

I suppose a turret is easier and faster to design. Ok.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

... That's not an opinion, that's a fact of life. The bigger the target, the easier it is to hit it.

You mean outside of the evidence showcased by the established tech of each race, which is FAR below that of Gnomes and Goblins?

Again, that is not evidence at all. Especially when we consider the opposite side of the spectrum: before WoW we see nothing at all about spellcasting in the lore for gnomes, for example, but when WoW launched, gnome spellcasters could easily stand toe-to-toe with human and high/blood elven spellcasters. So it stands to reason that a human or blood elf or any race could stand toe-to-toe with goblins and gnomes in terms of technology. Of course, the race as a whole would be more technologically-inclined, but that doesn't prevent that technology prodigies of other races (namely, the tech class) exist.

Which is fine, but its quite odd (using your argument) that all the Alliance and Horde races have advanced technology, yet not a single non-Gnome or Goblin had advanced tech anywhere during the invasion. Shouldn't we be seeing advanced tech everywhere?

See above.

By the large amount of tinker threads that were created after that cinematic appeared.

... "Large amount"? I visit this website daily, at least twice a day, and I've seen only one or two about tinkers.

Feel free to find a non goblin or gnome from the alliance or horde that's building and piloting a mech.

Nuh-uh. You made the claim that the currently ridable golems are non-canon, so you need to provide the proof that they are, definitely, non-canon. You can't make the claim without any evidence and then demand that others find the evidence to disprove you. That's not how civilized discourse works.

Come on, I'm still waiting for your proof that ridable mechs are non-canon.

[cuafpr]

it could work and when they put in another class if its not a physical dps ranged class i'd be shocked. however i see mech suits being a cool down a'la d.va in OW. Get in the mech shoot for a bit then it self destructs doing AOE dmg, not something used all the time.

[lightofdawn]

Tinkers are one of the most requested classes for the game, 2nd only to demon hun... never mind.

Any way, I've been in favor of this for a long time. The basics would be:
Armor: Mail.
Specs: Range dps with gun and Healer with similar weapon options as shamans. Think of them as the healers in SCII, they carry shields and use their tools to protect and restore. A 3rd spec, if needed, could be a pet class or maybe even melee.
Races: A: gnome, dwarf, draenei and human. H: B'elf, undead and goblin.

Any more detailed design is better left for the blizzard team to make.

I've seen bard called for far more than tinker. The only people I've seen call for tinker barely give any substantial reason for them to be added.

[Pua]

There is a pretty high community desire for the Tinker class. You'll find multiple Tinker threads in every major WoW forum. These posts stretch back through multiple expansions.

Yeah... Which is exactly what I'm saying. I'm not sure why you're posting this as a correction, when it's what I've said from the very beginning.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, and you're agreeing with me - in which case, I apologise.

[Teriz]

Stop the goalpost moving. It's an orc piloting a mech, and contrary to your opinion, it doesn't look silly or jarring.

Because it looks like this;



Where's the Orc?

Also the goalposts haven't moved. I've asked where's the non-Gnome and non-Goblin built and piloted mechs for several pages now. You have yet to answer.

They... really don't. They build basically the same machines and everything. The only difference between them is that goblins are a bit less concerned about safety when building something.

Goblins:


Gnomes:


That looks pretty different.

Because their bodies get transformed, not unlike the druid's case. If anything, in this case, the tech class will very likely take after the shaman class with the Ascendance talent: same form for all races, maybe varying in spec.


I suppose a turret is easier and faster to design. Ok.

Like I said, classes with fewer racial options tend to get more individualized perks. Paladins, Shaman, Druids, and Demon Hunters all get race-specific perks. I'm not seeing why it would be any different for a Tinker class.

That's not an opinion, that's a fact of life. The bigger the target, the easier it is to hit it.

That's not what I was pointing out. I was pointing out your silly opinion that Gnomes and Goblins building mech suits for themselves because of their diminutive size was asinine and nonsensical.

Again, that is not evidence at all. Especially when we consider the opposite side of the spectrum: before WoW we see nothing at all about spellcasting in the lore for gnomes, for example, but when WoW launched, gnome spellcasters could easily stand toe-to-toe with human and high/blood elven spellcasters. So it stands to reason that a human or blood elf or any race could stand toe-to-toe with goblins and gnomes in terms of technology. Of course, the race as a whole would be more technologically-inclined, but that doesn't prevent that technology prodigies of other races (namely, the tech class) exist.

And again the evidence is the fact that no other race's technology has never been shown to match Goblin or Gnome tech. Considering your belief that Engineering is canon and Human engineers have been using advanced technology since vanilla, wouldn't we see some signs of advanced human-based technology by this point? Alliance technology is dominated by Gnome tech and dwarven metallurgy. Just like Horde technology is dominated by Goblin tech and Orc metallurgy. No other technology from any other race has arisen in WoW to challenge that paradigm.

Nuh-uh. You made the claim that the currently ridable golems are non-canon, so you need to provide the proof that they are, definitely, non-canon. You can't make the claim without any evidence and then demand that others find the evidence to disprove you. That's not how civilized discourse works.

Come on, I'm still waiting for your proof that ridable mechs are non-canon.

See above.

[Ielenia]

Because it looks like this;
Where's the Orc?

More goalposts being moved. It's a mech. Piloted by an orc. I have not seen a single complaint, from the moment WoD was announced and to this day, that the Iron Reaver was 'silly' or 'jarring' because it's being piloted by an orc, which was your original argument.

Also the goalposts haven't moved. I've asked where's the non-Gnome and non-Goblin built and piloted mechs for several pages now. You have yet to answer.

Because it's your job to provide proof of your claim (i.e. other races somehow cannot build and pilot mechs), instead you just keep making baseless claims and expect others to find evidence and proof that your claim is wrong. It doesn't work that way, but you refuse to understand that, for some reason.

Goblins:
Gnomes:
That looks pretty different.

Oh my god. Can't you be any more dishonest, Teriz? Can you? Way to go to compare a generic goblin mech to the mech that belongs to the racial leader. Of fucking course they'll look different. Just like Varian's plate armor and sword look nothing like any blacksmith in the game can make, NPC or player. Why don't you try being honest for once and compare this generic goblin mech to a generic gnome mech?

That's not what I was pointing out. I was pointing out your silly opinion that Gnomes and Goblins building mech suits for themselves because of their diminutive size was asinine and nonsensical.

"My silly opinion"... "asinine and nonsensical". My 'silly opinion'. My 'silly opinion'?

No, you didn't. You explained why gnomes tend to do it, but you never touched upon the issue why would any other non-g race would not use a mech, should their engineers were to head into battle.

1. Other races don't need to do it, because they have suitable size and strength.

I've already explained it; Gnomes and Goblins build mechs because they are smaller (yet smarter) than other races, and they use robotics to even out the difference in size and strength.

Goblins and Gnomes build mechs to fight in because of their diminutive size.

Do I need to go on?

And again the evidence is the fact that no other race's technology has never been shown to match Goblin or Gnome tech.

ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE!! Get that through your thick skull, already!! Because by your twisted logic, gnomes would never be able to be any spellcasting class, since until the implementation of gnome mages/warlocks, there was no mention at all, anywhere on the lore, about gnome spellcasters!

[Teriz]

More goalposts being moved. It's a mech. Piloted by an orc. I have not seen a single complaint, from the moment WoD was announced and to this day, that the Iron Reaver was 'silly' or 'jarring' because it's being piloted by an orc, which was your original argument.

If Orc Tinkers resemble the Iron Reaver, then there's no problem. However, that more than likely won't be the case, since Gnome and Goblin mechs clearly show their pilots.

Because it's your job to provide proof of your claim (i.e. other races somehow cannot build and pilot mechs), instead you just keep making baseless claims and expect others to find evidence and proof that your claim is wrong. It doesn't work that way, but you refuse to understand that, for some reason.

The claims aren't baseless. Every race in the game has a lower level of mechanical technology than the Gnomes and Goblins. Evidence of that is everywhere in the game.

Oh my god. Can't you be any more dishonest, Teriz? Can you? Way to go to compare a generic goblin mech to the mech that belongs to the racial leader. Of fucking course they'll look different. Just like Varian's plate armor and sword look nothing like any blacksmith in the game can make, NPC or player. Why don't you try being honest for once and compare this generic goblin mech to a generic gnome mech?

Because a class that revolves around piloting a mech isn't going to be utilizing generic Goblin and Gnome mechs.

ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE!! Get that through your thick skull, already!! Because by your twisted logic, gnomes would never be able to be any spellcasting class, since until the implementation of gnome mages/warlocks, there was no mention at all, anywhere on the lore, about gnome spellcasters!

Except there's a vast difference between Gnomes having zero lore regarding magic BEFORE the release of WoW, and us having 10+ years of WoW and no examples of advanced Alliance and Horde technology beyond Gnomes and Goblins. Obviously every aspect of a race's lore couldn't be explained before WoW, and before Gnomes were chosen as an Alliance race before Vanilla. However, we've had WoW for almost 13 years now, and there's not a single example of technology that rivals Gnome and Goblin tech.

Especially since YOU believe that the player-based Engineering profession is canon and that all races are equal to Gnomes and Goblins in terms of technology. Shouldn't we have at least one example at this point?

All we have is an Orc from an alternate timeline/dimension piloting a goblin robot.

[FelPlague]

Shipbuilding.

Is.

Technology.

/headdesk

/out

there is a difference at being good at wood work and what can and cannot float

and being able to make a fucking super mech
the stuff we see in wod is goblin tech, simply orcs following orders of what to do

inventing and making are two different things

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More goalposts being moved. It's a mech. Piloted by an orc. I have not seen a single complaint, from the moment WoD was announced and to this day, that the Iron Reaver was 'silly' or 'jarring' because it's being piloted by an orc, which was your original argument.


Because it's your job to provide proof of your claim (i.e. other races somehow cannot build and pilot mechs), instead you just keep making baseless claims and expect others to find evidence and proof that your claim is wrong. It doesn't work that way, but you refuse to understand that, for some reason.


Oh my god. Can't you be any more dishonest, Teriz? Can you? Way to go to compare a generic goblin mech to the mech that belongs to the racial leader. Of fucking course they'll look different. Just like Varian's plate armor and sword look nothing like any blacksmith in the game can make, NPC or player. Why don't you try being honest for once and compare this generic goblin mech to a generic gnome mech?


"My silly opinion"... "asinine and nonsensical". My 'silly opinion'. My 'silly opinion'?



Do I need to go on?


ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE!! Get that through your thick skull, already!! Because by your twisted logic, gnomes would never be able to be any spellcasting class, since until the implementation of gnome mages/warlocks, there was no mention at all, anywhere on the lore, about gnome spellcasters!

i mostly agree with you

but person making a claim "Orcs can drive mechs" should be the one to prove it, as it is much easier for them to say "here is an orc"
then the one saying "there is no orc mech drivers" because then they need to prove a negativie, simply because if he has to, he will have to show you millions of goblin and gnome mech drivers and say "these are not orcs" instead of you simply showing him "here is like 7 orc pilots, there ya go"

the postitive needs to prove, not the negitive.

this is the "well prove there is no god" argument, no you must prove to me there is a god.



please man, i agree with you, but the person claiming something exists is the person who needs to provide proof, not the one claiming it does not exist, because if it does not exist there is no evidence it does not exist, but if it DOES exist, then there would be proof right?


prove to me right now the flying spaghetti monster from hell that is purple and eats people does not exist, do it.

[Ielenia]

If Orc Tinkers resemble the Iron Reaver, then there's no problem. However, that more than likely won't be the case, since Gnome and Goblin mechs clearly show their pilots.

That is irrelevant. The fact is, it's a mech, being piloted by an orc, and nobody ever complained about it being 'silly' or 'jarring', which, again, I'll remind you again, because you keep ignoring it, were your original arguments.

The claims aren't baseless.

Yes, they are. Because the game itself refutes your argument by having gnome mages and warlocks, something that, I'll remind you again, because you keep ignoring it, did not exist in the lore prior to their implementation into playable classes.

Because a class that revolves around piloting a mech isn't going to be utilizing generic Goblin and Gnome mechs.

Says you. Again with no evidence at all to back that up.

Except there's a vast difference between Gnomes having zero lore regarding magic BEFORE the release of WoW, and us having 10+ years of WoW and no examples of advanced Alliance and Horde technology beyond Gnomes and Goblins.

You keep treating the lore of the previous Warcraft games as separate from the lore of World of Warcraft. You're wrong in that regard. Their lore is one and the same. You keep saying that because you haven't seen any non-g race building and piloting a mech in the lore, it means they flat out do not exist, yet, through double-standards, refuse to admit that your own assertion flat out excludes gnome mages and warlocks from ever existing since, just like non-g mech builders, they didn't exist in the lore prior to their implementation.

Especially since YOU believe that the player-based Engineering profession is canon and that all races are equal to Gnomes and Goblins in terms of technology.

Could you please stop those damned misrepresentations and BS strawman arguments of yours? Seriously, Teriz. I've already shown how easily you contradict yourself (which you "coincidentally" "forgot" to address). So here's another example to show how dishonest you are:

Again, that is not evidence at all. Especially when we consider the opposite side of the spectrum: before WoW we see nothing at all about spellcasting in the lore for gnomes, for example, but when WoW launched, gnome spellcasters could easily stand toe-to-toe with human and high/blood elven spellcasters. So it stands to reason that a human or blood elf or any race could stand toe-to-toe with goblins and gnomes in terms of technology. Of course, the race as a whole would be more technologically-inclined, but that doesn't prevent that technology prodigies of other races (namely, the tech class) exist.

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i mostly agree with you

but person making a claim "Orcs can drive mechs" should be the one to prove it, as it is much easier for them to say "here is an orc"
then the one saying "there is no orc mech drivers" because then they need to prove a negativie, simply because if he has to, he will have to show you millions of goblin and gnome mech drivers and say "these are not orcs" instead of you simply showing him "here is like 7 orc pilots, there ya go"

the postitive needs to prove, not the negitive.

this is the "well prove there is no god" argument, no you must prove to me there is a god.



please man, i agree with you, but the person claiming something exists is the person who needs to provide proof, not the one claiming it does not exist, because if it does not exist there is no evidence it does not exist, but if it DOES exist, then there would be proof right?


prove to me right now the flying spaghetti monster from hell that is purple and eats people does not exist, do it.

I have indeed shown an example of a mech piloted by an orc. I've linked to the Iron Reaver, the second boss in the Hellfire Citadel raid in Warlord of Draenor. It's a mech, being piloted by an orc:

[Teriz]

That is irrelevant. The fact is, it's a mech, being piloted by an orc, and nobody ever complained about it being 'silly' or 'jarring', which, again, I'll remind you again, because you keep ignoring it, were your original arguments.

Like I said, if it looks like that, it probably wouldn't be silly or jarring, but it's more than likely not going to look like that. It's more than likely going to look like the Sky Golem with the pilot clearly visible.

Yes, they are. Because the game itself refutes your argument by having gnome mages and warlocks, something that, I'll remind you again, because you keep ignoring it, did not exist in the lore prior to their implementation into playable classes.

So a a WoW race lacked certain aspects of their lore before WoW was released in 2004? You don't say! I wonder how that could possibly happen.

Says you. Again with no evidence at all to back that up.

Well the players are considered heroes, and tend to stand out from common grunts and laymen. Which is why we get all that fancy armor and cool weaponry.

You keep treating the lore of the previous Warcraft games as separate from the lore of World of Warcraft. You're wrong in that regard. Their lore is one and the same. You keep saying that because you haven't seen any non-g race building and piloting a mech in the lore, it means they flat out do not exist, yet, through double-standards, refuse to admit that your own assertion flat out excludes gnome mages and warlocks from ever existing since, just like non-g mech builders, they didn't exist in the lore prior to their implementation.

I never said it didn't matter, I'm just saying its irrelevant, because obviously the lore of a WoW race wouldn't get more fleshed out until WoW itself was released. I'm also saying that the Gnomes not getting all of their lore revealed before WoW is a far different situation than 13+ years of zero advanced non-Goblin and non-Gnome tech among the other WoW races. If your argument that there's tons of engineers out there just as technologically gifted as Gnomes and Goblins, I think we'd be seeing some aspects of it appearing among the Alliance and the Horde, right?

We don't see it though, so there you go. Unfortunately, an Orc piloting a goblin mech from an alternative dimension and timeline really doesn't count.

[Ielenia]

Like I said, if it looks like that, it probably wouldn't be silly or jarring, but it's more than likely not going to look like that. It's more than likely going to look like the Sky Golem with the pilot clearly visible.

So it is going to look like generic goblin tech, then? I thought you said it wouldn't be?

So a a WoW race lacked certain aspects of their lore before WoW was released in 2004? You don't say! I wonder how that could possibly happen.

So you're resorting to open mockery now? How mature of you.

I never said it didn't matter, I'm just saying its irrelevant, because obviously the lore of a WoW race wouldn't get more fleshed out until WoW itself was released.

It's not irrelevant. You're just trying to claim it's irrelevant because it invalidates your weak attempt at argumentation. No gnome was ever shown displaying magic abilities in the lore, before gnome mages and warlocks were implemented. Ergo, by your logic, gnome mages and warlocks shouldn't exist.

Never mind the fact that just because you can't see examples of humans, tauren, dwarves or draenei building and piloting mechs (despite the fact an orc piloting a mech exists), it doesn't mean they can't do it. You're claming they cannot do it, so you have to show an in-game or in-lore (i.e. that we can verify) example that actually shows and explains why they are somehow prevented from being able to do it. Saying 'gnomes and goblins deal with tech more than the other races' is not an explanation or a reason, as I've pointed out earlier (which, again, you pointedly ignored or just plain didn't read), that doesn't impede that prodigies to exist in other races.

Want to see an example an example of prodigy? Nathanos Marris, the very first, and, for a long time, only human hunter.

By the way, I have again noticed you not only have yet to address the case of you contradicting yourself, but also have failed to address the fact you were caught red-handed trying to make a strawman out of my arguments.

[Teriz]

So it is going to look like generic goblin tech, then? I thought you said it wouldn't be?

Well it won't. Mekkatorque's mech also has the pilot clearly visible, and it isn't generic.

So you're resorting to open mockery now? How mature of you.

Sorry, but you're making a pretty dumb argument.

It's not irrelevant. You're just trying to claim it's irrelevant because it invalidates your weak attempt at argumentation. No gnome was ever shown displaying magic abilities in the lore, before gnome mages and warlocks were implemented. Ergo, by your logic, gnome mages and warlocks shouldn't exist.

Never mind the fact that just because you can't see examples of humans, tauren, dwarves or draenei building and piloting mechs (despite the fact an orc piloting a mech exists), it doesn't mean they can't do it. You're claming they cannot do it, so you have to show an in-game or in-lore (i.e. that we can verify) example that actually shows and explains why they are somehow prevented from being able to do it. Saying 'gnomes and goblins deal with tech more than the other races' is not an explanation or a reason, as I've pointed out earlier (which, again, you pointedly ignored or just plain didn't read), that doesn't impede that prodigies to exist in other races.

Well that was never my claim. My claim is that Goblin and Gnome tech is far more advanced than any other playable race in WoW. The in-game evidence backs that up, since we have examples of non-Goblin and non-Gnome tech, and its medieval in comparison.

Thus it stands to reason that people from the middle ages aren't capable of building transformable, pilotable robots with highly advanced weaponry like lasers and gravity bombs. Wouldn't you agree?

Want to see an example an example of prodigy? Nathanos Marris, the very first, and, for a long time, only human hunter.

Yes, and he was introduced in The Burning Crusade. Humans didn't get hunters until Cataclysm. So where's our human engineering prodigy? IF human or non-Goblin/Gnome Tinkers are coming next expansion, we should be seeing one at this point.

By the way, I have again noticed you not only have yet to address the case of you contradicting yourself, but also have failed to address the fact you were caught red-handed trying to make a strawman out of my arguments.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[FelPlague]

That is irrelevant. The fact is, it's a mech, being piloted by an orc, and nobody ever complained about it being 'silly' or 'jarring', which, again, I'll remind you again, because you keep ignoring it, were your original arguments.


Yes, they are. Because the game itself refutes your argument by having gnome mages and warlocks, something that, I'll remind you again, because you keep ignoring it, did not exist in the lore prior to their implementation into playable classes.


Says you. Again with no evidence at all to back that up.


You keep treating the lore of the previous Warcraft games as separate from the lore of World of Warcraft. You're wrong in that regard. Their lore is one and the same. You keep saying that because you haven't seen any non-g race building and piloting a mech in the lore, it means they flat out do not exist, yet, through double-standards, refuse to admit that your own assertion flat out excludes gnome mages and warlocks from ever existing since, just like non-g mech builders, they didn't exist in the lore prior to their implementation.


Could you please stop those damned misrepresentations and BS strawman arguments of yours? Seriously, Teriz. I've already shown how easily you contradict yourself (which you "coincidentally" "forgot" to address). So here's another example to show how dishonest you are:


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I have indeed shown an example of a mech piloted by an orc. I've linked to the Iron Reaver, the second boss in the Hellfire Citadel raid in Warlord of Draenor. It's a mech, being piloted by an orc:

yes 1, but did that orc create it? also more examples would be nice. there was one man who could change water to wine, does that mean all people can?

[Ielenia]

Well it won't. Mekkatorque's mech also has the pilot clearly visible, and it isn't generic.

I'm not sure he counts because he's a racial leader, and, just like all racial leaders, head into battle without a helmet or anything protecting their heads. Not to mention that, again, he's a racial leader, so his armor and gear is obviously going to look distinct and unattainable for players.

Sorry, but you're making a pretty dumb argument.

Considering that this "dumb argument" you claim I'm making is nothing more than your own argument, that says something about what you're trying to argue, here.

Well that was never my claim. My claim is that Goblin and Gnome tech is far more advanced than any other playable race in WoW. The in-game evidence backs that up, since we have examples of non-Goblin and non-Gnome tech, and its medieval in comparison.

And yet you can't provide a single evidence that engineer of non-g races are unable to build and pilot their own mechs. Dwarves, for example, can build their own planes and tanks. Just because their cities aren't pure 100% technology, it does not mean engineers are any less capable than gnome and goblins engineers.

Yes, and he was introduced in The Burning Crusade. Humans didn't get hunters until Cataclysm. So where's our human engineering prodigy?

For crying out loud, do you really not understand what proof of concept even mean?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Don't worry, I'll remind you:

That's not what I was pointing out. I was pointing out your silly opinion that Gnomes and Goblins building mech suits for themselves because of their diminutive size was asinine and nonsensical.

"My silly opinion"... "asinine and nonsensical". My 'silly opinion'. My 'silly opinion'?

No, you didn't. You explained why gnomes tend to do it, but you never touched upon the issue why would any other non-g race would not use a mech, should their engineers were to head into battle.

1. Other races don't need to do it, because they have suitable size and strength.

I've already explained it; Gnomes and Goblins build mechs because they are smaller (yet smarter) than other races, and they use robotics to even out the difference in size and strength.

Goblins and Gnomes build mechs to fight in because of their diminutive size.

Since you apparently need explanation, you called my "supposed opinion" that "gnomes and goblins build mech suits for themselves because of their diminutive size" asinine and nonsensical. But the fact of the matter is, that "silly, asinine and nonsensical opinion" was never mine to begin with. IT WAS YOURS ALL ALONG.

And as for the strawman:

Especially since YOU believe that the player-based Engineering profession is canon and that all races are equal to Gnomes and Goblins in terms of technology.

Could you please stop those damned misrepresentations and BS strawman arguments of yours? Seriously, Teriz. I've already shown how easily you contradict yourself (which you "coincidentally" "forgot" to address). So here's another example to show how dishonest you are:

Again, that is not evidence at all. Especially when we consider the opposite side of the spectrum: before WoW we see nothing at all about spellcasting in the lore for gnomes, for example, but when WoW launched, gnome spellcasters could easily stand toe-to-toe with human and high/blood elven spellcasters. So it stands to reason that a human or blood elf or any race could stand toe-to-toe with goblins and gnomes in terms of technology. Of course, the race as a whole would be more technologically-inclined, but that doesn't prevent that technology prodigies of other races (namely, the tech class) exist.

Here we go. Here there's you making a strawman of my arguments by claiming I'm saying all races are technologically equal to goblins and gnomes, when I have clearly stated that it isn't the case.

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yes 1, but did that orc create it? also more examples would be nice. there was one man who could change water to wine, does that mean all people can?

That comparison of yours makes me start to think you may be trolling me, but on the off-chance you're not, here's my answer: the original arguments from Teriz is that any race that is not a gnome or goblin piloting a mech would be 'silly' and a high-tech orc would be 'too jarring', and I presented him the Iron Reaver, an orc-piloted mech that is neither silly nor jarring.

As for your comparison, I'm not going to comment on it as it can easily derail the conversation toward religion, but it's enough said that both cases are nowhere near similar enough to be compared.

[Teriz]

I'm not sure he counts because he's a racial leader, and, just like all racial leaders, head into battle without a helmet or anything protecting their heads. Not to mention that, again, he's a racial leader, so his armor and gear is obviously going to look distinct and unattainable for players.

Just about all Goblin and Gnome mechs have the pilot exposed;






So no, its not just a feature of Mekatorque's mech.

Considering that this "dumb argument" you claim I'm making is nothing more than your own argument, that says something about what you're trying to argue, here.

My argument is that WoW has been going on for over a decade and the other races are stuck in the middle ages with no evidence of them producing advanced tech. Your argument is that Blizzard would have told us that Gnomes were going to be magical in WoW before WoW even came out.

And yet you can't provide a single evidence that engineer of non-g races are unable to build and pilot their own mechs. Dwarves, for example, can build their own planes and tanks. Just because their cities aren't pure 100% technology, it does not mean engineers are any less capable than gnome and goblins engineers.

Well it's not just that their cities are something out of the 1600s, it's also that there's no human, tauren, draenei, troll, orc, forsaken, etc. mechs anywhere, despite your assertion that there's tons of non Goblin/Gnome prodigies running around.

For crying out loud, do you really not understand what proof of concept even mean?

Yes, and there's no proof of concept for a non goblin/gnome mech Tinker.

Don't worry, I'll remind you:

Since you apparently need explanation, you called my "supposed opinion" that "gnomes and goblins build mech suits for themselves because of their diminutive size" asinine and nonsensical. But the fact of the matter is, that "silly, asinine and nonsensical opinion" was never mine to begin with. IT WAS YOURS ALL ALONG.

And as for the strawman:

Here we go. Here there's you making a strawman of my arguments by claiming I'm saying all races are technologically equal to goblins and gnomes, when I have clearly stated that it isn't the case.

Ignoring the size issue because its irrelevant; For your argument to work, all races would have to be equal to Goblins and Gnomes technologically in order to build and pilot the mechs on the same level as those two races. I mean you can't have Goblin and Gnome mechs firing lasers and missiles, while the Forsaken Mech is launching fire arrows and Poison gas. It just wouldn't make sense.